Thaksin: Let's put unity before justice

**Calgary** · 28-05-2012, 02:47 PM

Originally Posted by Bobcock

Originally Posted by Calgary

from those much closer to the UD/Red Shirts than I am.

I'd hazard a guess that Abhisit is closer to them than you are......55555

Gotcha BC.

You weren't going to read my posts anymore.

I feel warm and fuzzy all over BC

**Bobcock** · 28-05-2012, 03:00 PM

It's usually quite easy to scan over what you write and once it starts to take the usual turn I finish reading....that line caught my eye.....

**goostewart** · 28-05-2012, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Calgary

I'm not sure. Previously it was Thaksin for sure. Now there is some speculation about it. There may be strategic value to harnessing Amsterdam's strengths and functions closer to the UDD/Red Shirts now, leaving Thaksin free to pursue matters more closely associated with himself via the most effective MO available to him. For example, working with the ICC may make sense for the Red Shirts via Amsterdam, and may not be in Thaksin's personal interests and situation. I don't know. Just an example. But I keep saying, don't take this as gospel. It is speculation I heard from those much closer to the UD/Red Shirts than I am. Another speculative theme floating about, is that Thaksin may be re-positioning himself. Sucking-up has gotten him nowhere, and he may have decided to come at them from a different angle from now on.

You know Calgary, that is the least hysterical and most honest answer I have seen you give. If only you could post like this all the time. I might not agree with you (I might actually agree sometimes), but if you are posting like this I am going to take you seriously and listen to you. No hysterical language, no childish bleating and no accusations of being a PADist etc. Good, now, can we keep this going?

**Butterfly** · 28-05-2012, 03:21 PM

^ he can't help it, it depends on his meds usage

**mao say dung** · 28-05-2012, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by goostewart

if you are posting like this I am going to take you seriously and listen to you.

And, really, Calgary, what more could you ask for?

What a clown...

**Troy** · 28-05-2012, 06:14 PM

Originally Posted by Calgary

PAD and UDD 'joining hands".....when hell freezes over.

Hence the irony....

However, if the UDD and Red Shirts were to unite against their respective financial backers and took stock of what the real issues were, things might improve.

A mutiny of the mobs against their money loving Generals would be a huge leap forward in reconciliation....and they may even end up with a budding young democracy again.

**Calgary** · 28-05-2012, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Originally Posted by goostewart

if you are posting like this I am going to take you seriously and listen to you.

And, really, Calgary, what more could you ask for?

What a clown...

LOL....................

Seriously though, the likes of Goo, LW, SD and others are very neccesary in order to have some spark to the conversation. Contrariness is no fun, when there is no-one to be contrary to.

Like the group think I was previously involved in. It was boring, until I threw some pro-UDD/PTP 'red meat' on the table. They soon came out of their stupified doldrums.

They had never seen it before and were shocked.

**hazz** · 28-05-2012, 08:17 PM

I was thinking about the payments made to the victims of the violence and them being required to sign away their rights to seek justice or the truth. Given the size of the event, if they had turned round and as a groups refused to sign with a threat to derail the media event and go home. would PT really have turned round and said 'up to you' or would they have considered the resultant PR disaster and forget about the form, take the money.

I know the money being offered was a huge for some of these families, but really money is just money and somethings shouldn't have a price

**mao say dung** · 29-05-2012, 03:24 AM

^As I understand it, they haven't signed away "their rights to seek justice or the truth", but merely to seek any further compensation from the government. And as you say, money is just money. Such clauses are standard practice in victim compensation situations.

Nothing is stopping any individual or organization from continuing to demand either investigation into what happened or the making public of the results of any such investigation. Nurse Kate's mom didn't want to have to drop her ongoing suit because she was hoping some revelation of truth would come about as a result. While I understand the desire and the thinking, the likelihood that a civil suit would result in any more truth coming out seems rather slim. It's important to remember who the judiciary work for, after all.

So yet again the gales of empty rhetoric from the monkey-dupe crowd (not you hazz) are exposed as just that. What a surprise.

**Butterfly** · 29-05-2012, 07:56 AM

^

what a little coward turd you make, always an excuse to explain in the worst logic a fucked up situation by this government or the reds,

typical mentality of an ignorant TEFLer,

**Calgary** · 29-05-2012, 08:13 AM

Originally Posted by mao say dung

While I understand the desire and the thinking, the likelihood that a civil suit would result in any more truth coming out seems rather slim. It's important to remember who the judiciary work for, after all.

That latter statement regarding who is working for whom, is critical. And is the key motivator for aggressive approaches to the ICC at The Hague.

This fact alone brings into question the ability of victims and their families, of getting judicial gratification and atonement inside Thailand.

It is also part of the story why allies Thaksin and the UDD/Red Shirts, have perhaps assumed strategies more individually suited.

This uphill struggle for judicial vindication internally, is the key reason behind forcefull advances to the ICC externally, where such an Amart grip is absent.

Next month, Thida, chair of the UDD, will be travelling to The Hague to make a representation.

There is increased evidence that Thaksin and the UDD have strategically re-focussed. Almost a little like good-cop, bad-cop.

Thaksin taking a more conciliatory approach for self-evident reasons, including a moderation that will serve him and the PTP well in future.

The UDD on the other hand, will be forcefully pursuing redress via external judicial entities.

Where this will lead, is anybody's guess.

Amsterdam mentioned in his comments at R'song, that should the ICC reject further investigation currently, they will rework all initiatives and go back to the ICC. One of their representations will obviously be the judicial controls exercised inside Thailand by the massacre perps. themselves, preventing Justice being carried out inside the country.

The ICC already asked for evidence of Abhi's citizenship status. That evidence has been identified by Abhi, himself, when he declared himself A British Citizen while at Oxford. Apparently this issue is significant for international judicial pursuit of this individual, currently masquarading carefree in a national Political Office.

Within this scenario, only external entities like the ICC can have an effect.

**hazz** · 29-05-2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by mao say dung

^As I understand it, they haven't signed away "their rights to seek justice or the truth", but merely to seek any further compensation from the government. And as you say, money is just money. Such clauses are standard practice in victim compensation situations.

You could interpret what happened as the government requiring people who take the compensation to accept this as a full and final payment, which is not unreasonable, after all the primary motivation for offering blanket compensation to make a problem go away so you can get on with your life. but the way in which they seem to have done this is to lock the families out of the courts, which is where they are going to have to go if they are not happy with the truth and justice that PT chooses to deliver to them. Personally I would describe that as signing away your rights.

**mao say dung** · 29-05-2012, 12:16 PM

^Yes. They have signed away their right to seek further compensation from the government. And as you suggested, money is just money.

So how does signing away your right to seek more money, which after all is just money, constitute signing away your "rights"? Which other rights are signed away with this right to seek compensation?

As I understand it, they are not "locked out of the courts" at all, and are still free to launch suits to establish wrongful death etc....

**Calgary** · 29-05-2012, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by mao say dung

^Yes. They have signed away their right to seek further compensation from the government. And as you suggested, money is just money.

So how does signing away your right to seek more money, which after all is just money, constitute signing away your "rights"? Which other rights are signed away with this right to seek compensation?

As I understand it, they are not "locked out of the courts" at all, and are still free to launch suits to establish wrongful death etc....

The UDD/Red Shirts have not signed away any judicial pursuit prerogatives.

Individuals are individual matters.

Organizationally, the UDD/Red Shirts would be committing hara-kiri if they ever considered letting R'song murderers off the hook.

They will continue to be Abhi's and Suthep's worst nightmare.

**lom** · 29-05-2012, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by mao say dung

So how does signing away your right to seek more money, which after all is just money, constitute signing away your "rights"? Which other rights are signed away with this right to seek compensation?

Don't play dumb, you know as well as I do that the unusual high monetary compensation is the governments way of putting the lid back on.
Any further complaints or requests for the truth will be met with a "Sorry but please shut up now, you have been compensated".

**mao say dung** · 29-05-2012, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by lom

Any further complaints or requests for the truth will be met with a "Sorry but please shut up now, you have been compensated".

Where do you go in Thailand to make a "request for the truth"?

And what form of complaint do you imagine will be met with "Sorry but please shut up now, you have been compensated"?

**Calgary** · 29-05-2012, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Where do you go in Thailand to make a "request for the truth"?

Calgary

**Bobcock** · 29-05-2012, 03:05 PM

Thank God he put a smiley, I'd have taken him seriously....

**hazz** · 29-05-2012, 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by mao say dung

^Yes. They have signed away their right to seek further compensation from the government. And as you suggested, money is just money.

So how does signing away your right to seek more money, which after all is just money, constitute signing away your "rights"? Which other rights are signed away with this right to seek compensation?

As I understand it, they are not "locked out of the courts" at all, and are still free to launch suits to establish wrongful death etc....

The newspapers described the recipients having to sign papers agreeing forgo the use of the courts now and in the future, if you don't believe this is a blanket clause, I would really like to see where you get that because the newspaper reports seemed as clear as crystal on this.

**Bobcock** · 29-05-2012, 03:21 PM

remember it's the facist Amart coupist media, not any normal media

**Calgary** · 29-05-2012, 03:28 PM

Originally Posted by Bobcock

Thank God he put a smiley, I'd have taken him seriously....

LOL........................

**Mr Lick** · 29-05-2012, 03:38 PM

The 'Moo Ham' incident (Mercedes/Bus Stop) may be a case in point. Some of the victims/families accepted compensation and some didn't. As a result he was summoned to court where he was sentenced to 15 years and 2 months custody although his sentence was reduced to 10 years because he paid compensation to some of those affected by his actions.

Needless to say he has yet to serve one day of his sentence.

For those who have not accepted compensation offered by the government for the riots in 2010 then i suspect that they are in a position to take the matter further if they so desire. For those who have accepted then i fear their opportunity to do so has passed them by.

**Butterfly** · 29-05-2012, 03:42 PM

let's be honest here, it's a bribe for their silence, not compensation

the fact that they accept this is all you need to know about the recipients and their cause for Democracy,

everyone in the red camp is being bought out like a SHIN CORP mega deal,

**mao say dung** · 29-05-2012, 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by hazz

The newspapers described the recipients having to sign papers agreeing forgo the use of the courts now and in the future, if you don't believe this is a blanket clause, I would really like to see where you get that because the newspaper reports seemed as clear as crystal on this.

I'd appreciate a link to one of those "clear as crystal reports" then because from the articles I've read the people who objected to the paragraph decided to accept the payments once it had been explained to them that they would be able to proceed with both civil and criminal suits.

The closest to clear from my point of view is the statement that they were signing away their right to mount a "charge" against "government" pertaining to this issue. It's anyone's guess as what "charge" or indeed "government" would mean in a legal context.

Maybe we have different ideas about clarity. For me, this "paragraph" and its legal meaning would need interpretation and clarification via lawyers and judges.

It might be interesting also to know whether Nurse Kate's family, who have already initiated lawsuits, are forced to drop them.

I know that waiting to see how these things shake out is counterproductive where hysterical rhetoric supporting the Thaksin/PT is BAD and the UDD et. al are dupes and monkeys is the desired end, but I am more interested in facts and analysis undertaken with a dollop of objectivity.

It's also worth noting that a number of headlines for this story claim that some recipients refused the payments whereas in the actual text it seems "crystal clear" that no one actually did. Typical media horseshit.

**Calgary** · 30-05-2012, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by Bobcock[B][I]

It's usually quite easy to scan over what you write and once it starts to take the usual turn I finish reading

[/I][/B]

Originally Posted by Bobcock

"....remember it's the facist Amart coupist media, not any normal media

I notice PADites like to point fingers at repetitive mantra, conveniently forgetting their parrotting of State media which elicits such reactive commentary.

In fact the repetitive mantra with which they indoctrinatingly echo the media can be summed up as follows. Sometimes I am tempted simply to copy one of these, as they apply over and over again:

1. Redirecting focus from the Coupist aggressors to the minimal anti-coup resistance.

2. Disrespect and contempt by the Amart for their political opposites

3. Characterizing the country as being in political turmoil, when the Amart is not in power.

4. Characterizing the anti-coupists of R'song as an anarchic rabble, devoid of political awareness and more importantly, a political context. Certainly not associated with a coup that is conveniently glossed over, if mentioned at all.

5. Whitewashing the mafia offer from Abhi. as being a negotiated thing.

6. Trying to position charter amendments as singularly Thaksin oriented.

7. Depicting PTP/Ms. Y disaster management as a 'disaster', with no comparative international standard confirming it.

8. Depicting PTP/Ms. Y. appointments as 'cronyism', but not those of the Golden Boy.

9. Characterizing Democratic PTP Parliamentary decision making as 'parliamentary dictatorship".

10. Using so-called networks and Polling to 'launder' Opposition agenda's.

Let me be clear, the repetition comes from PADites regurgitating what the Amart media feeds them. The same thing over and over, just in different terminology.

At least mine is original!

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