Thread: Syria: Not as important as Libya.

^Shit Harry isn't this just unarmed civilians protesting, I would have thought you would be claiming this as a right for every free thinking person around the world to kill and maim other unarmed civilians.

Originally Posted by OhOh

^Shit Harry isn't this just unarmed civilians protesting, I would have thought you would be claiming this as a right for every free thinking person around the world to kill and maim other unarmed civilians.

OhOh don't be such a snide twat.

I've made it quite clear in the threads above - and you are quite aware of the fact - that many trained Syrian soldiers have defected and are fighting againt the government.

If you can't be bothered to actually read the thread, then what's the point in posting shit about it?

And any Shi'a (and more than a few Sunnis) will tell you that the suicide bomb is a far more prevalent tactic of the latter than the former.

And the target was not civilians, but a police bus. Perhaps you don't realise that policemen in Syria are not bobbies that go around clipping little boys round the ear and tutting a lot, but then again you do seem to believe only the official government reports in these scenarios, don't you?

So have you actually worked out that this is a sectarian civil war yet?

Go on. Sit down, close your eyes and have a think. Stop if it makes your head hurt.

Assad can stop the carnage any time he likes. Until then, expect more senseless killing.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

I've made it quite clear in the threads above - and you are quite aware of the fact - that many trained Syrian soldiers have defected and are fighting againt the government.

right harryb, I assume you are reporting live from the front using your Samsung Galaxy S to know all this as facts

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

I've made it quite clear in the threads above - and you are quite aware of the fact - that many trained Syrian soldiers have defected and are fighting againt the government.

right harryb, I assume you are reporting live from the front using your Samsung Galaxy S to know all this as facts

It's in the public domain, you gallic retard. Now fuck off, the grown ups are talking grown up stuff here.

DAMASCUS




January 05, 2012|From Arwa Damon, CNN

• 

Syrian defector: Assad is not in control


Syria's embattled government has been holding jailed dissidents underground and paying pro-government gang members $100 a day to crack down on protesters as it tries to quell months of demonstrations against it, a former defense official said.
Mahmoud al-Haj Hamad was a financial inspector in the Ministry of Defense in Damascus until his recent defection to Egypt. In an interview with CNN this week, he provided a firsthand account of the wheels of repression at work, as seen from his former 12th-floor office.




"I used to see them bringing in blindfolded and handcuffed detainees on buses who are kept in underground prisons, even some built under the streets," he said. During protests in the streets of Damascus, city buses filled with armed gangs left the ministry, flanked by four-wheel-drive vehicles "filled with weapons," Hamad said.
"What is more horrific is the intelligence vans marked with the Syrian Red Crescent insignia that would drive through the protests as ambulances and start firing at protestors," he added.


He blames much of the carnage not Syrian regular troops but on President Bashar al-Assad's intelligence service and the armed gangs he says were recruited to battle protesters.
"Bashar al-Assad is no longer able to control these human monsters," Hamad said. "We have reached a phase of genocide, and this can't be tolerated under any circumstances."
He said the gunmen were provided with accommodations "and high salaries of about $100 a day." But the nearly 10-month-old crackdown in Syria has cost the government so much that it has had to cut funding for other government ministries by 30%, Hamad said.
Hamad said he supported the revolution from the start, as did many of his colleagues. He said he would even disguise himself to join the demonstrators sometimes.
For a while, he said, "We were hoping the killing would stop and the regime would understand that the revolution will win, and maybe find a way to appease the people. But there was no hope."
As the opposition continued, the ministry began to put restrictions on its own staff, Hamad said. Vacations and travel had to be approved by the intelligence department. So he lied to get out in late December.
"I traveled to Egypt through the airport with the excuse of registering my son in college in Cairo," he said. "When the rest of my family followed me, I announced my defection in protest of what is happening in Syria."

Syria vows 'iron fist' as Damascus dead buried
AFPAFP – 1 hour 2 minutes ago


Syria is preparing to bury 26 people killed in a Damascus suicide bombing as the authorities vowed an "iron fist" in response to the "terrorist" attack, the second such incident in two weeks.

The opposition pointed the finger at the regime itself, as it did after similar attacks on December 23, in which 44 people died.

The bomber blew himself up near a school in in the historic Midan quarter, Interior Minister Lieutenant General Mohammad al-Shaar was quoted as saying.

Sixty-three people were also wounded, the government said.

Another 17 civilians were shot dead on Friday in the daily unrest, activists said.

The interior ministry branded the bombing "a new terrorist escalation" and said more than 10 kilos (22 pounds) of explosives were used.

"We will strike with an iron fist all those who undermine the security of the nation," a ministry statement said.

Opposition factions blamed President Bashar al-Assad's government for the bombing and called on Arab and Western forces to end the bloodshed.

"We hold the regime, its agents and its gangs, fully responsible for this crime," said the Muslim Brotherhood, which had also accused the government of orchestrating twin suicide attacks in Damascus on December 23.

The umbrella Syrian National Council, which includes the Brotherhood, said Friday's bombing "clearly bears the regime's fingerprints."

The United States condemned the attack, again calling for Assad to step down, while UN chief Ban Ki-moon said "all violence is unacceptable and must stop immediately."

Assad ally Iran condemned the "terrorist attack."

Foreign ministry spokesman Ramin Mehmanparast said: "Without doubt, the unity and vigilance of the Syrian government and people are disappointing the enemies of Syria who think only of internal war, breaking up the country and making it submit to the demands of the axis of America and Zionism."

Damascus blamed Al-Qaeda for December's twin bombings, while the opposition accused the government.

Friday saw a similar exchange of accusations.

The ruling Baath party called the attack "a terrorist act that is a part of the plot hatched against Syria," state media reported.

The plot "coincides with the statements made by opposition groups and by French and American officials," it said.

The Muslim Brotherhood called for an international probe, claiming the attack benefited the regime.

The SNC said the UN Security Council had to take up the matter of the bloodshed, which the world body estimated in December had killed more than 5,000 people since pro-democracy protests erupted in March.

It said "a joint effort between the Arab League and the United Nations Security Council represents a first step toward the urgent and necessary measures to assure the protection of civilians, and to ensure that the regime does not commit additional bombings and killings."

Activists have called for an Arab League observer mission to admit its failure to stem nearly 10 months of bloodshed and hand over to the United Nations.

UN leader Ban reaffirmed an offer to train the Arab League observers.

The Arab mission has been in Syria since December 26 trying to assess whether the government is complying with a peace deal aimed at ending its deadly crackdown.

But there has been no let-up in the violence and new criticism of the observers.

The Arab League is to meet in Cairo on Sunday to discuss the mission.

Qatari Prime Minister Sheikh Hamad bin Jassem al-Thani, who heads an Arab League task force on Syria, has acknowledged "mistakes" in the monitoring mission.

Amazing what these defectors will say for a few shillings.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Amazing what these defectors will say for a few shillings.

Wow, it was worth posting that, wasn't it?

How many pages of propaganda is worth one of my teases?

Originally Posted by OhOh

How many pages of propaganda is worth one of my teases?

So it's not propaganda when you make it up then?

Asia Times Online :: Russia's 'democracy package' for Syria

"Russia's 'democracy package' for Syria
By Sami Moubayed

DAMASCUS - The Russians have been talking a lot about a Yemeni solution for Syria, without going into too much detail. Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov even said it publicly, twice, in less than a week, impressed by the win-win deal between Yemeni President Ali Abdullah Saleh and his opponents.

Sources close to Moscow say that a "Russian Initiative" will be announced for Syria by late January, modeled after the Yemeni one.
The initiative, apparently, will be the brainchild of both the Americans and Russians, but it will be packaged and marketed as a Russian deal, from A to Z. The United States does not want to involve itself directly in Syrian affairs at a micro-level, since it is too busy with the 2012 presidential elections and afraid that any outright US support would harm the Syrian street.

Washington, apparently, and much of the European Union, have given the Russians carte blanche to come up with a solution for Syria, in coordination with the Arab League. Russia would thereby guarantee that American interests in Syria would be preserved, vis-a-vis Syria's relationship with non-state players like Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in Gaza, and its commitments to the peace process. They know the Syrian scene inside out, after all, more so than the Americans or Europeans, thanks to 50 years of daily hands-on contact with Syrian officials. They know who matters in the Syrian scene and can push the right buttons - if they want - to make change happen. They also have much at stake at ending the stalemate in Syria, because it safeguards their own interests in the Middle East. If the Syrian regime falls, the Russians are certain, then so will their influence in the Arab world.

In order for this initiative to see the light, the Russians need something tangible in their hands to ward off critics of the Syrian government and prove that Russia can deliver on Syrian affairs. However, they have made little progress to date, apart from a feeble political party law that has failed to produce real and attractive parties for Syrian activists fed up with 48 years of Ba'ath Party rule.
Violence and killing have continued since unrest broke out early last year; so has the stubbornness of Syria's Ba'athists not to give up - or even share - power. Russia is unimpressed with how things are developing internally in Syria. Serious Russian discontent might explain why suddenly the Syrians seem to be in a hurry, setting three important dates in the next four weeks that aim at meeting Russian demands.

Reportedly, the Russians asked for three things first before laying out their initiative for Syria:
1. A new constitution that does away with the Ba'ath Party monopoly.
2. A Ba'ath Party congress to lay the political groundwork for post-Ba'ath Syria.
3. A cabinet of national unity that includes heavyweights from the Syrian opposition.

The new constitution would reportedly be out by mid-February, and Article 8 - which designates the Ba'ath Party as "leader of state and society" - will be omitted. The Ba'ath party congress will be held in the first week of February. Talks are already underway with the Coordination Council, an opposition coalition that is headed by veteran opposition figure Hasan Abdul-Azeem, to take part in the new government.

The cabinet, surely, must be headed by a member of the opposition and not a Ba'athist, as customarily has happened since 1963. It might see the light, media sources are saying, before the end of January. The new constitution will reportedly change the mechanism of how the prime minister is selected. Since 1973, every premier has been appointed directly - and dismissed - by the president of the republic. He had vast executive authority but no political clout or influence whatsoever, although he was given a ceremonial post on the ruling Regional Command of the Ba'ath Party. That has been changed, and a new prime minister will be named by whichever party wins a majority in parliament - as was the case before the Ba'athists came to power in 1963. He/she will answer to the chamber of deputies, which can appoint or dismiss a prime minister at will, without resorting to the president. Additionally, some of the president's powers will be reduced and given to the prime minister - which is another pressing Russian prerequisite.

Among other changes in the new charter is doing away with the Regional Command's authority to name a presidential candidate. From now on, a presidential candidate will need nomination from 20% of members of parliament (which means 50 out of 250 deputies). A minimum of two candidates need to emerge for presidential elections to take place. It is unclear yet what the presidential term will be, although independents and opposition figures are pushing for five years, rather than seven, renewable only once rather than open-ended, as the current system says.

The new system, in theory, would be a parliamentary democracy, and it would lay the backbone of Syrian politics in the upcoming period - perhaps leading to presidential elections in 2012-2013. If these changes do materialize and don't get aborted by hardliners, several opposition figures might agree to join the cabinet - if such a move is presented to them as part of a comprehensive "democracy package" that has Russia's fingerprints, and guarantees, all over it. They would be risking their names and careers, but a real democratic outcome would be worth the trial. They need to be given credible assurances, however, that the state will be transformed dramatically, in fact beyond recognition, from a police state into a democracy, where freedom of speech, conduct and assembly are guaranteed by law. The current system, after all, cannot accept a democratically elected prime minister from the opposition if he speaks his mind and is popular on the street.

Neither Syria's state-run press nor the intelligence services, and certainly not the Ba'athists, would easily accept such a dramatic change that does away with how they have been doing things for years. Talks are underway, however, with the Coordination Council, headed in Syria by Hasan Abdul Azeem and in the diaspora by internationally respect human-rights activist Haitham Manaa. He has been earmarked for the premiership, although he has neither accepted nor declined the job. He might accept - as a part of a democracy package - but certainly not with the current status quo of Prime Minister Adel Safar, which would be political suicide for any serious politician, whether an independent or an opposition figure.

The Coordination Committee, composed of Arab nationalist parties, Nasserist politicians, Kurds and seculars, is believed to be the all-time favorite of Arab League secretary general Nabil al-Arabi - who is an Arab nationalist at heart and in practice.

It includes respected names like Hussein al-Odat, for example, a veteran Ba'athist with an exceptionally unblemished record. Most of its members have spent their careers in and out of jail. The Russians, who have invited the Coordination Committee for talks in Moscow this January, clearly favor this camp rather than the Western-backed Syrian National Council (SNC).

In late 2011, they welcomed a delegation from the SNC, but those talks ended in failure. The Russians were pushing them to sit down for talks with the regime, but the SNC insisted that the only dialogue they would have with Syrian authorities was on how to hand over power. The Coordination Committee, however, is coming across as more pragmatic, willing to talk of sharing of power with the authorities as a stepping stone towards democratizing the regime from within. Having said that, the Coordination Committee is not as influential at a grassroots level as the Muslim Brotherhood, which is part of the SNC. Meaning, if such a deal does see the light - and is backed strongly by Russia - it still would not appease the angry Syrian street, which is demanding nothing less than total regime change.

Last week, the SNC signed a rapprochement with the Coordination Committee, which quickly collapsed - and was in fact torn apart by members of the SNC. They claimed that its president, Bourhan Ghalioun, had signed the deal without consulting with the SNC's executive council. Twenty-four hours after its signing, the rapprochement collapsed, thereby failing, yet again, at unifying the Syrian opposition. Will all of these solutions ever see the light, given the amount of anger and mistrust on the Syrian street, the radicalization of Syrian authorities, and the adamant refusal of opposition figures within the SNC to endorse such a deal? Much of its success depends on four things: an end to all the killing and all military operations; serious Russian pressure; the readiness of the Syrian state to let go before it is too late; and the upcoming report of the Arab League Observers, which is due to be presented this weekend.

If the report comes out "soft" on Syrian officialdom - or divides the blame 60-40 between them and "armed groups" on the Syrian street, this might bring a deal with someone like Manaa closer to reality. He would need to be a real prime minister, with real powers, authority, and following. The cabinet would also need real opposition figures to lend their name and reputation to it, not regime-friendly "soft" opposition figures who are taken seriously by nobody - certainly not on the Syrian street but also not in Russia or the West. And Syria's new system would have to be a democratic one where accountability, justice and constitutionalism prevails - something that Syria has not seen in nearly 50 years.

A strong-worded League report that blames the Syrian government in full for what is happening in Syria would make it impossible for anybody who takes himself seriously to accept the job of premier, if he is going to be become another Adel Safar. Russia pushed strongly for the league's observers to drown a German proposal that international observers come to Syria, hoping that the League would "Arabize" the Syria case and help undo the damage done to the image of the Syrian regime in 10 months of violence, as a stepping stone towards launching Russia's "democracy package".

Can you link to that last article, as none of the references can be identified, making it impossible to establush the source (e.g. Iran's Press TV et al).

Originally Posted by OhOh

Reportedly, the Russians asked for three things first before laying out their initiative for Syria:
1. A new constitution that does away with the Ba'ath Party monopoly.
2. A Ba'ath Party congress to lay the political groundwork for post-Ba'ath Syria.
3. A cabinet of national unity that includes heavyweights from the Syrian opposition.

Are you in favour of this proposal, Ohoh?

I'm not convinced it would actually work, as long as Assad's government can fix election results.

I ploughed through all the (poorly identified) links in post #190, and what a mish mash of opinion it is.

Although the article itself draws on various parts of it, they contradict each other all over the place.

Many say the death of Syrian civilians at the hands of Assad's forces are not true, simply because they can't be independently verified (now *there's* a sensible assumption given what the Arab League observers are reporting).

Another says "The final straw for the Saudis appeared to be Assad's Ramadan Rampage, during which Syrian troops have laid waste to the cities of Hama and Deir az-Zour. Up to 300 civilians may have been slaughtered, making it by far the deadliest week of the five month old uprising, where the death toll now stands in excess of 2,000 souls."

And even more laughable, the "YouGov Poll" says:

36% of total respondents think that the news they see and her about the protests are exaggerated, while 52% believe they are true

Whereas in Syria, 52% of respondents believe that the news about the protests are exaggerated

Well given that the media in Syria is mostly state-controlled, would you expect anything else?

And more, the figure in Syria is essentially 400 people, more than 200 of which were "pro-Assad". I'd hazard a guess that Alawites and government lackeys are more likely to have telephones than Sunni opposition, so can the data really be trusted?

It also says that 91% of people in the region are in favour of the removal of Assad.

The article is too long, makes too many references to ambiguous material, and in my opinion is extremely biased.

But then again, "Asia Times Online" is a strange venture owned by a murky company in the BVI. Chinese perhaps? (Or even Iran again?).

Hard to tell, but the slant of this article is distinctly pro-Assad, don't you think?

DAMASCUS: A large Russian naval flotilla led by an aircraft carrier has docked in the Syrian port of Tartus in what Damascus state media hailed on Sunday as a show of solidarity by close ally Moscow.
The six-day port call by the carrier group in the Mediterranean port where Russia has a recently expanded naval base is intended to boost ties at a time when President Bashar al-Assad's government is under mounting Western and Arab pressure over its bloody crackdown on dissent, the Syrian press said.
"The port call is aimed at bringing the two countries closer together and strengthening their ties of friendship," the official SANA news agency quoted a Russian naval officer it named as Yakushin Vladimir Anatolievich as saying.
"The commanders of the Russian naval vessels docked in Tartus took turns to express their solidarity with the Syrian people," the news agency added.
The governor of Tartus province, Atef al-Nadaf, paid tribute to the "honourable position adopted by Russia which has stood by the Syrian people."
The Al-Watan newspaper, which is privately owned but close to the government, reported last week that the carrier Admiral Kuznetsov was escorted by a large flotilla including submarines.
Despite strong Western criticism, Russia has stood by its Cold War ally in the face of a mounting international outcry over the death toll from security force efforts to crush nearly 10 months of anti-government protests.
In October, Moscow joined Beijing in vetoing a Western-drafted U.N. Security Council resolution that would have threatened Damascus with "targeted measures" if it failed to rein in its security forces

Read more: THE DAILY STAR :: News :: Middle East :: Russian naval flotilla docks in Syria: state media
(The Daily Star :: Lebanon News :: THE DAILY STAR :: Breaking News, Lebanon News, Middle East News & World News)

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

I've made it quite clear in the threads above - and you are quite aware of the fact - that many trained Syrian soldiers have defected and are fighting againt the government.

right harryb, I assume you are reporting live from the front using your Samsung Galaxy S to know all this as facts

It's in the public domain, you gallic retard. Now fuck off, the grown ups are talking grown up stuff here.

The "public domain" as were know can be, shall I say, modified to suit ones view point. The numbers of utub videos and unsubstantiated, bogus or "fabricated" reports in no way guarantees the truth.

The poll was conducted by a Qatari organisation, they selected the participants, they selected the questions. hardly a pro Syrian government organisation.

Oh you fucking idiot. Have you not watched the "Doha Debates"?

On which channel are they broadcast?

Jesus no wonder you talk out of your arse.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Doha Debates

"The Doha Debates are hosted and funded by the Qatar Foundation for Education, Science and Community Development - a private, chartered, non-profit organization, founded in 1995 and chaired by Her Highness Sheikha Mozah bint Nasser Al-Missned. The Doha Debates supported the creation of QatarDebate, an independent student debating organization for Qatar, in 2007."


"They are sponsored by Qatar Foundation and their broadcasting rights are sold to BBC World News"

"have attracted such names as Bill Clinton, Mohamed El Baradei, Shimon Peres, Amre Moussa, Ayad Allawi, and Mahmoud Zahar."

No bias there then.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Doha Debates

"The Doha Debates are hosted and funded by the Qatar Foundation for Education, Science and Community Development - a private, chartered, non-profit organization, founded in 1995 and chaired by Her Highness Sheikha Mozah bint Nasser Al-Missned. The Doha Debates supported the creation of QatarDebate, an independent student debating organization for Qatar, in 2007."


"They are sponsored by Qatar Foundation and their broadcasting rights are sold to BBC World News"

"have attracted such names as Bill Clinton, Mohamed El Baradei, Shimon Peres, Amre Moussa, Ayad Allawi, and Mahmoud Zahar."

No bias there then.

And they are chaired (I use the word generously) by that obsequious apple polisher Tim Sebastian.

Why do you think they used YouGov for the poll?

ALl the Qataris do is put the money up. It's the Al Thanis way of showing how "democratic" they are.

Wow, talk about heaping on the pressure.

Arab League renews call to end violence in Syria

Urgently


Tajik diplomat, Turkish minister discuss cooperation issues

Arab League renews call to end violence in Syria



09/01/2012 09:41
Asia-Plus
Views: 41
DUSHANBE, January 9, 2012, Asia-Plus -- The Arab League has made a renewed call to the Syrian government to halt violence against civilians.
International media outlets report ministers’ meeting in Cairo said the Arab League mission to Syria would continue, despite criticism that it has not managed to halt civilian deaths. But the ministers failed to take up a proposal to bolster the mission by including United Nations experts.
The BBC reported Sunday evening that past three days have seen more than 100 deaths - although the reports are difficult to verify with most foreign media barred from working in Syria.
According to Reuters, activists said that at least 27 people died across the country on Saturday. The clashes came as thousands joined a state-organized funeral for victims of a bomb blast on Friday in Damascus. At least 26 people died in that attack, some of them members of the security forces.
Authorities blamed what they described as pro-democracy “terrorists” for Friday’s attack. But the opposition Syrian National Council said the government staged the bombing.
The United Nations says more than 5,000 civilians have been killed since protests against President Bashar al-Assad began 10 months ago.
The Arab League mission, in Syria since late December, has been heavily criticized by the Syrian opposition for failing to stop, or even clearly condemn, the ongoing violence.
As it had been reported earlier, 10 new observers arrived on Saturday, bringing the total number of Arab League observers to 153.
The observers are monitoring compliance with a peace plan under which the government promised to withdraw the military from the streets and stop its use of forces against civilians.
The Arab ministers met in Cairo yesterday to hear a detailed report from the head of the monitoring mission.
The ministers resisted a suggestion from Qatar to bring in officials from the UN to add their experience, the BBC says, adding that there is opposition both from Syria and other Arab countries to UN involvement - other Arab countries are sensitive to any measures that might be used against them in the future.
Another reassessment of the mission's progress is due at the end of January.