Thread: Any doubts about Climate Change?

You lot still on about this trying to prove or disprove....

Of course climate change is real, always has been and always will be. Global warming has been taking place for 13.000 or so years since the last ice age and will continue until the decline into the next ice age.

Man made climate change is a multi billion dollar industry and those benefiting will continue to push as hard as they can to keep their gravy train running.
End of story.

Originally Posted by birding

Man made climate change is a multi billion dollar industry and those benefiting will continue to push as hard as they can to keep their gravy train running. End of story.

That is a where you have been slipped a mickey by big oil. I fixed your quote to reflect the truth and not your right wing Koch sponsored bullshit;

BIG OIL is a multi TRILLION dollar industry and those benefiting will continue to push as hard as they can to keep their gravy train running. End of story.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

You are obviously not talking about the mega dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, and if the environmentalist had their way all these dams would be gone.

And what dams would those be? No environmentalists groups are calling for the mega dams to come down. Just were did you get that nonsense? There are environmental extremist groups that would I am sure love to see them come down the same as extremist Christians who protest, bomb and kill at abortion clinics.

There has been a long discussion about the removal of the smaller downstream dams on those two rivers as they are dated and of little use and have a massive effect on salmon runs. They should come down. Salmon is a very valuable resource and a job provider.

Save Our Wild Salmon - Why Remove The 4 Lower Snake River Dams?

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Now I ask are most of these environmentalists conservative or liberal.

Of course they are liberal. Conservatives could give care less about the environment and they have proven it time and again. Liberals on the other hand have shown to be the opposite.

if big oil is so powerful why is the price of crude so low?

Originally Posted by blue

if big oil is so powerful why is the price of crude so low?

Simple supply and demand not even big oil can prop up a weak global economy and yes big oil competes with itself for profits.

Then there are other theories that the US and Saudi are trying to punish Russia and Iran by refusing to cut production etc.

The one fact you can count on the low price of oil has nothing to due with global warming.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...ices.html?_r=0

Originally Posted by FlyFree

Originally Posted by MrG

I don't like the bullshit either, but I think most people get the ironic note in the question posed in the thread's title.
And if there are doubts about climate change, then what better place to post them than in a single thread where positions can be exchanged in the same place with climate change realists.

Works for me.

Maybe you don't understand the meaning of "irrelevant".

Maybe you can't post a coherent response to my post.
Irrelevant means; immaterial, unrelated, inappropriate, unconnected and, of course, Flyfree.

Originally Posted by bsnub

Originally Posted by RPETER65

You are obviously not talking about the mega dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, and if the environmentalist had their way all these dams would be gone.

And what dams would those be? No environmentalists groups are calling for the mega dams to come down. Just were did you get that nonsense? There are environmental extremist groups that would I am sure love to see them come down the same as extremist Christians who protest, bomb and kill at abortion clinics.

There has been a long discussion about the removal of the smaller downstream dams on those two rivers as they are dated and of little use and have a massive effect on salmon runs. They should come down. Salmon is a very valuable resource and a job provider.

Save Our Wild Salmon - Why Remove The 4 Lower Snake River Dams?

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Now I ask are most of these environmentalists conservative or liberal.

Of course they are liberal. Conservatives could give care less about the environment and they have proven it time and again. Liberals on the other hand have shown to be the opposite.

Snubbies you are wrong, environmentalist groups have been pushing for years to get rid of the dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, the Sierra club would be one leading the way.

I could care less about the dams on some of the tributaries, they don't produce enough energy to worry about.


Yes you are right of course they are conservatives who are unwilling to compromise, shut down coal and oil, and still want to shut down hydro electric power. You are right about republicans, as far as those who are in congress and have been there for ages, the average republican not so much. As I have said in a previous post there are many reasons for being conservative, we don't all hate the earth and we don't all support the big banks and corporate greed. We as much as any believe our representatives have sold us out to line there pockets. If you cared to check conservatives who are not politicians, in the majority, support term limits to stop this.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Snubbies you are wrong, environmentalist groups have been pushing for years to get rid of the dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, the Sierra club would be one leading the way.

When you make such absurd comments you need to pack up your comments with facts. You clearly did not read the article I posted (you never do).

I am a member of the Sierra club and they advocate removing the lower four Snake river dams. Not any "Mega" dams like Grand Coulee like you tried to claim. At this point they do not advocate removing any of the Columbia river dams. So you are clearly lying or just completely misinformed about what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

I could care less about the dams on some of the tributaries, they don't produce enough energy to worry about.

Neither do the lower four snake river dams and increasing salmon runs would have a far larger impact on the economy then keeping four inefficient dams.

http://www.wildsalmon.org/facts-and-...m-removal.html

Originally Posted by RPETER65

we don't all hate the earth and we don't all support the big banks and corporate greed.

That doesn't matter in the end because the people you vote into office do.

Originally Posted by bsnub

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Snubbies you are wrong, environmentalist groups have been pushing for years to get rid of the dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, the Sierra club would be one leading the way.

When you make such absurd comments you need to pack up your comments with facts. You clearly did not read the article I posted (you never do).

I am a member of the Sierra club and they advocate removing the lower four Snake river dams. Not any "Mega" dams like Grand Coulee like you tried to claim. At this point they do not advocate removing any of the Columbia river dams. So you are clearly lying or just completely misinformed about what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

I could care less about the dams on some of the tributaries, they don't produce enough energy to worry about.

Neither do the lower four snake river dams and increasing salmon runs would have a far larger impact on the economy then keeping four inefficient dams.

Save Our Wild Salmon - Myths and Facts about Lower Snake River Dam Removal

Originally Posted by RPETER65

we don't all hate the earth and we don't all support the big banks and corporate greed.

That doesn't matter in the end because the people you vote into office do.

Well yes it does, it is a matter of which way you violate your conscience and voting against your basic beliefs, ie. Christian beliefs, rights of the babies in the womb, small federal government, individual resoncibilities, and on and on.

Originally Posted by bsnub

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Snubbies you are wrong, environmentalist groups have been pushing for years to get rid of the dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, the Sierra club would be one leading the way.

When you make such absurd comments you need to pack up your comments with facts. You clearly did not read the article I posted (you never do).

I am a member of the Sierra club and they advocate removing the lower four Snake river dams. Not any "Mega" dams like Grand Coulee like you tried to claim. At this point they do not advocate removing any of the Columbia river dams. So you are clearly lying or just completely misinformed about what you are talking about.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

I could care less about the dams on some of the tributaries, they don't produce enough energy to worry about.

Neither do the lower four snake river dams and increasing salmon runs would have a far larger impact on the economy then keeping four inefficient dams.

Save Our Wild Salmon - Myths and Facts about Lower Snake River Dam Removal

Originally Posted by RPETER65

we don't all hate the earth and we don't all support the big banks and corporate greed.

That doesn't matter in the end because the people you vote into office do.

The decline of the salmon runs is bullocks, I have been watching the salmon and steelhead runs over bonneville dam for decades in the last few years we have record runs. The salmon coming up the Yakima river are making an impressive come back.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Well yes it does, it is a matter of which way you violate your conscience and voting against your basic beliefs, ie. Christian beliefs, rights of the babies in the womb, small federal government, individual resoncibilities, and on and on.

How exactly does forcing others to conform to your belief system, creating a theocracy and suppressing the rights of minorities who you deem unworthy equate to 'small government' and 'personal responsibility'?

Originally Posted by slackula

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Well yes it does, it is a matter of which way you violate your conscience and voting against your basic beliefs, ie. Christian beliefs, rights of the babies in the womb, small federal government, individual resoncibilities, and on and on.

How exactly does forcing others to conform to your belief system, creating a theocracy and suppressing the rights of minorities who you deem unworthy equate to 'small government' and 'personal responsibility'?

Exactly where in my post is anything said about forcing others to believe in my belief system ,or creating a theocracy, or suppressing the rights of minorities of which I deem none of them unworthy. Are you so biased you cannot see both sides what a myopic idiot you have shown yourself to be. The only rights you seem to be able to see are the rights thar support your libtard agenda.

Originally Posted by bsnub

Originally Posted by RPETER65

The decline of the salmon runs is bullocks, I have been watching the salmon and steelhead runs over bonneville dam for decades in the last few years we have record runs. The salmon coming up the Yakima river are making an impressive come back.

Short sighted as usual. Typical of many of your posts.

The fish may get as far as those dams as they are all relatively close to the coast. It is further upstream and when they get to the Snake river where the problems begin. That is why people want to remove those old downstream Snake river damns. Many of the salmon in the so called "record runs" at the dams you mentioned never make it to their spawning grounds. I should also mention that none of these runs even come close to the runs before the dams.

Further evidence;

Propagandists for the lower four Snake River dams like to depict recent salmon returns as “record runs.” Most recently, Lt. Col. Tim Vail, of the Corps of Engineers, spoke of “record” salmon runs when he touted dam benefits. This self-serving assessment demands careful review. “Record runs” cannot describe the status of ESA-listed spring/summer Chinook salmon in the Snake River.



The most unbiased assessment of the status of wild spring/summer Chinook salmon in the Snake basin derives from spawning nest (redd) counts by the Idaho Department of Fish and Game each year after 1956. The department has counted redds in the same index areas of the Middle Fork Salmon River from 1957 through 2015.



The average redd count for 1957-1961, before the four lower Snake River dams affected runs, was 2,420. In the most recent five years, the average count in the same spawning areas was 854, a reduction of 65 percent.



The two-thirds reduction in redd counts depicts only part of the population decline. From 1957 to ’61, fisheries in the Columbia River harvested half of all spring Chinook that entered the Columbia River. In recent years the harvest of spring Chinook, mostly by Indian fisheries, has amounted to less than 10 percent. Adjusting for this half-century drop in harvest, I estimate that wild spring Chinook salmon have suffered a decline in abundance of 80 percent rather than 65 percent.
What accounts for a reduction of 80 percent in numbers of wild spring/summer Chinook salmon? Most importantly, the National Marine Fisheries Service documented very low survival at dams in the lower Snake and main Columbia rivers for several decades. Even recently, only about 50 percent of wild juveniles that migrated in-river reached the tailrace of Bonneville Dam.



When discussing dam passage in the Snake River, the NMFS persists in using a “dam passage survival” objective (across the concrete) of 96 percent. But NMFS data typically show a survival of about 92 percent per dam project (pool and dam combined) for wild spring Chinook smolts as they pass through the several lower Snake projects. “Project mortality” through each of the eight main stem hydro projects accounts for the 50 percent overall survival to Bonneville Dam. More juveniles die after they reach the estuary from injury or stress incurred while migrating through the hydropower system. Also, NMFS reports indicate that the smolt migration experience affects their upstream migration success when they return as adults. Thus, “across concrete” loss is only a part of total project-related mortality.


To increase toward recovery, wild spring/summer Chinook salmon must survive from smolt to adult at 2 to 6 percent (average objective 4 percent). Recent survivals have been less than 1 percent. Steelhead survival has also remained far below the recovery objective. Lt. Col. Vail’s is just one voice among many that conveniently slide over that issue.


As the Columbia River basin continues to warm over the coming decades, natal streams will produce fewer ESA-listed wild spring Chinook and steelhead juveniles to migrate seaward. Yet the new NMFS Biological Opinion fails to anticipate a need for main-stem river management that would substantially reduce “project mortality.” It ignores studies of removal of the lower Snake Dams or increased spill, and relies on the wobbly crutch of habitat improvement. But habitat improvement has no utility for listed spring Chinook in tributaries in wilderness or primitive areas.
Readers of propaganda from federal hydro operators and Port of Lewiston should beware the siren songs of “record salmon runs.”

Don Chapman studied and taught fish management and ecology for 50 years, with most of that effort devoted to salmon and steelhead of the Columbia River basin. He worked for state and federal agencies and public utilities, and was the founder of a consulting firm.

Link

Obviously the runs are not what they were and never will be, as for your claim of propaganda by the hydro electric advocates, that is also bullocks as there is no disputing how many fish are coming over the dams, they are counted, you idiot. Now for the lack of salmon going up the snake river that is also bullocks. The thing is salmon and steelhead are not endangered great strides have been made to ensure this. If you want to evolve the energy of America away from coal and oil there has to be trade offs and the continued use of hydro electric power is needed.

The other thing most people don't realize in the push for clean energy thousands of wind turbines have been built but the transmission lines to make there energy usable was not brought along with the building of the turbines. If you drive down the Columbia from Tri Cities To the Dalles you will see many turbines standing idle.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

as for your claim of propaganda by the hydro electric advocates, that is also bullocks as there is no disputing how many fish are coming over the dams they are counted

Did you even read anything I posted? Of course they are coming over those damn close to the ocean far fewer of them make it to their final destination and that is all that counts. What is the fcuking point of them getting over the dam if they never spawn you utter buffoon. With regard to me claiming propaganda that was the claim of the author an ecologist with 50 years of experience in fish management.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

ow for the lack of salmon going up the snake river that is also bullocks. The thing is salmon and steelhead are not endangered great strides have been made to ensure this.

So you clearly stopped reading the article after "propaganda". Nice attention span dipshit.

As usual lilpeter thinks he is smarter than the scientists.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

, you idiot.

This is the last time I try to talk sensibly to you. You once again assume your roll as the forum retard.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Now for the lack of salmon going up the snake river that is also bullocks.

How about some proof to back up your idiotic claim moron?

Originally Posted by bsnub

Originally Posted by RPETER65

as for your claim of propaganda by the hydro electric advocates, that is also bullocks as there is no disputing how many fish are coming over the dams they are counted

Did you even read anything I posted? Of course they are coming over those damn close to the ocean far fewer of them make it to their final destination and that is all that counts. What is the fcuking point of them getting over the dam if they never spawn you utter buffoon. With regard to me claiming propaganda that was the claim of the author an ecologist with 50 years of experience in fish management.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

ow for the lack of salmon going up the snake river that is also bullocks. The thing is salmon and steelhead are not endangered great strides have been made to ensure this.

So you clearly stopped reading the article after "propaganda". Nice attention span dipshit.

As usual lilpeter thinks he is smarter than the scientists.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

, you idiot.

This is the last time I try to talk sensibly to you. You once again assume your roll as the forum retard.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Now for the lack of salmon going up the snake river that is also bullocks.

How about some proof to back up your idiotic claim moron?

You may have a lot of facts crammed into your but your ability to sort though those facts and make sense is somewhat lacking, if the fish weren't spawning and smolt going back to the ocean there would be no return, and as the returns have been increasing there has to be fish spawning, think about it. As for being smarter than the game biologist no probably not but if you can read the daily fish counts and compare the numbers year after year you can plainly see the truths so for fish not getting up the snake river because of the dams, those damns have been there for how many years and yet there are still salmon and steel head coming back, duh.

Your the one who claims the snake river runs are being decimated how about you provide the facts to back that up.

As far as talking sense into me I have told you many times I take what you put out with a grain of salt, if and when I see you actualy compromise on an issue I might listen to some of the propaganda you put out.

Originally Posted by bsnub

Lets rewind things a bit so we can see how lilpetey trips over his feeble brain. This all started with this quote;

Originally Posted by MrG

Not all dams are hydro electric dams. Not all dams do good things to the environment, and some outlive their usefullness. What dams are being torn down and why. A discussion worth having, IMHO.

To which I responded with this;

Originally Posted by bsnub

Many old dams in my state of Washington stifle salmon runs. They have caused a massive decline in salmon population. Many of these dams produce little or no useful energy. The corporations that built or own these dams need to foot the bill to get ride of them to restore habit. One river in the Olympic peninsula the Elwha has already had a dam removed and it has had an enormous impact on the entire ecosystem. There needs to be lots more of this for sure. The industrial revolution in America caused massive ecological damage and that needs to be restored. These links below show just how amazing this has been in not only restoring salmon runs but to the beaches and other marine life; Elwha River Restoration - Olympic National Park (U.S. National Park Service) World?s Largest Dam Removal Unleashes U.S. River After Century of Electric Production

The nit wit then chimed in with this idiotic response;

Originally Posted by RPETER65

You are obviously not talking about the mega dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, and if the environmentalist had their way all these dams would be gone.

Clearly no one is talking about tearing down one of the largest power producing dams in the world as this pin head suggested so I replied with this;

Originally Posted by bsnub

And what dams would those be? No environmentalists groups are calling for the mega dams to come down. Just were did you get that nonsense?

Again he persists without naming any specific dams or providing any evidence to back his absurd claims;

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Snubbies you are wrong, environmentalist groups have been pushing for years to get rid of the dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, the Sierra club would be one leading the way.

At this point it had descended to the ridiculous. The man continues to push an opinion completely devoid of any facts. My level headed response;

Originally Posted by bsnub

When you make such absurd comments you need to back up your comments with facts. You clearly did not read the article I posted (you never do). I am a member of the Sierra club and they advocate removing the lower four Snake river dams. Not any "Mega" dams like Grand Coulee like you tried to claim. At this point they do not advocate removing any of the Columbia river dams. So you are clearly lying or just completely misinformed about what you are talking about.

This is his so called response. Three separate times I asked for him to back up his claims with facts. He has none so what did he do? He switched the issue;

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Well yes it does, it is a matter of which way you violate your conscience and voting against your basic beliefs, ie. Christian beliefs, rights of the babies in the womb, small federal government, individual resoncibilities, and on and on.

WTF? Realizing he has painted himself into a corner he shifts the topic;

Originally Posted by RPETER65

The decline of the salmon runs is bullocks, I have been watching the salmon and steelhead runs over bonneville dam for decades in the last few years we have record runs. The salmon coming up the Yakima river are making an impressive come back.

From there I tried to continue but like happens so many times with this utter buffoon he just evades the original issue.

The man just doesn't understand and he never will. He is not capable of intelligent discussion or debate. He just does not have the mental capacity.

And again you have falsely represented my post. When I responded with voting your beliefs, ie. Christian values ect. Was a response to your claim that our values are the same as the republican politicians as we voted them in. Had nothing to do with the dams at that point.

The thing that really tells me you are a biased brain washed baffoon is your not being able to realize there are people, with educated opinions, who disagree with you. I have come to realize there is know sense trying to talk to you, you are way to brain washed into yor libtard beliefs.

Originally Posted by bsnub

Lets rewind things a bit so we can see how lilpetey trips over his feeble brain. This all started with this quote;

Originally Posted by MrG

Not all dams are hydro electric dams. Not all dams do good things to the environment, and some outlive their usefullness. What dams are being torn down and why. A discussion worth having, IMHO.

To which I responded with this;

Originally Posted by bsnub

Many old dams in my state of Washington stifle salmon runs. They have caused a massive decline in salmon population. Many of these dams produce little or no useful energy. The corporations that built or own these dams need to foot the bill to get ride of them to restore habit. One river in the Olympic peninsula the Elwha has already had a dam removed and it has had an enormous impact on the entire ecosystem. There needs to be lots more of this for sure. The industrial revolution in America caused massive ecological damage and that needs to be restored. These links below show just how amazing this has been in not only restoring salmon runs but to the beaches and other marine life; Elwha River Restoration - Olympic National Park (U.S. National Park Service) World?s Largest Dam Removal Unleashes U.S. River After Century of Electric Production

The nit wit then chimed in with this idiotic response;

Originally Posted by RPETER65

You are obviously not talking about the mega dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, and if the environmentalist had their way all these dams would be gone.

Clearly no one is talking about tearing down one of the largest power producing dams in the world as this pin head suggested so I replied with this;

Originally Posted by bsnub

And what dams would those be? No environmentalists groups are calling for the mega dams to come down. Just were did you get that nonsense?

Again he persists without naming any specific dams or providing any evidence to back his absurd claims;

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Snubbies you are wrong, environmentalist groups have been pushing for years to get rid of the dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, the Sierra club would be one leading the way.

At this point it had descended to the ridiculous. The man continues to push an opinion completely devoid of any facts. My level headed response;

Originally Posted by bsnub

When you make such absurd comments you need to back up your comments with facts. You clearly did not read the article I posted (you never do). I am a member of the Sierra club and they advocate removing the lower four Snake river dams. Not any "Mega" dams like Grand Coulee like you tried to claim. At this point they do not advocate removing any of the Columbia river dams. So you are clearly lying or just completely misinformed about what you are talking about.

This is his so called response. Three separate times I asked for him to back up his claims with facts. He has none so what did he do? He switched the issue;

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Well yes it does, it is a matter of which way you violate your conscience and voting against your basic beliefs, ie. Christian beliefs, rights of the babies in the womb, small federal government, individual resoncibilities, and on and on.

WTF? Realizing he has painted himself into a corner he shifts the topic;

Originally Posted by RPETER65

The decline of the salmon runs is bullocks, I have been watching the salmon and steelhead runs over bonneville dam for decades in the last few years we have record runs. The salmon coming up the Yakima river are making an impressive come back.

From there I tried to continue but like happens so many times with this utter buffoon he just evades the original issue.

The man just doesn't understand and he never will. He is not capable of intelligent discussion or debate. He just does not have the mental capacity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RPETER65
You are obviously not talking about the mega dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, and if the environmentalist had their way all these dams would be gone.

Yes that was my response and if you live in the area as long as I did you would clearly know the tree hungers have been after these dams for decades.



Quote:
Originally Posted by RPETER65
Snubbies you are wrong, environmentalist groups have been pushing for years to get rid of the dams on the snake and Columbia rivers, the Sierra club would be one leading the way.

Why would I have to name the individual dams as I have said the tree hungers have been after all the dams on the Columbia river.

Originally Posted by S Landreth

Originally Posted by RPETER65

The other thing most people don't realize in the push for clean energy thousands of wind turbines have been built but the transmission lines to make there energy usable was not brought along with the building of the turbines. If you drive down the Columbia from Tri Cities To the Dalles you will see many turbines standing idle.

Maybe the wind wasn’t blowing hard enough. Otherwise I’ll call your deflection, bull fuckin’ shit.

Go ahead,………….give it your best shot.

Show us the Wind Turbines that are not hooked to the power grid.

Wind Farm | USGS Energy Resources Program

You are out of your depth.

I you obviously know 0 about wind turbines, if you drive by a wind turbine farm, as I frequently do, and you see half of the turbines working and half siting still it is reasonably obvious it has nothing to do with the wind.

Not talking about wind turbines not being hooked to the grid, it's the capacity of the grid to transmit the potential power of both wind and hydro electric projects. Which is why you never see all the turbines on line.

Peter you are such a dumb fuck. Turbines are switched on and off dependent on wind conditions and demand. You drive past and see some were turning and others were not and your conclusion: It must be a hoax.

Originally Posted by RPETER65

Exactly where in my post is anything said about forcing others to believe in my belief system ,or creating a theocracy

You are the one who advocated making laws based upon the Book of Leviticus. If you are going to make laws based on the shit in a 2,000 year old book of garbage that purports to be the word of god then you are aiming for a theocratic state whether you are willing to openly admit it or not you hypocritical imbecile.