Thread: Rethinking the state of Israel

Oddly enough the ultra-orthodox Jews don't believe in a state of Israel

Originally Posted by panama hat

Oddly enough the ultra-orthodox Jews don't believe in a state of Israel

Unless you are distinguishing between ultra orthodox in the religious sense vs Zionists you will have to expand a little for me to get your gist.

^ yes please expand, I might not following how extremist jews wouldn't want a state of Israel

Originally Posted by Norton

Originally Posted by "raycarey"

IMO there will never be peace until israel leaves (or is evicted) from the neighborhood.

Interesting opinion but far from practical or likely. On the other side of the argument, if the foes of Israel left or were were evicted there would be peace. Just as impractical or likely.

Israel exists, Lebanon exists, Syria exists, Egypt exists, and the Palestinians exist. Any leaving or being evicted is not going to happen.

no offense intended norton, but i'm going to guess that you're roughly the same age as the state of israel.

comparing it to egypt, lebanon or syria is a stretch.

Originally Posted by Norton

Unless you are distinguishing between ultra orthodox in the religious sense vs Zionists you will have to expand a little for me to get your gist.

Precisely that. In the religious sense Orthodox Jews don't believe in a state called Israel . . .

Originally Posted by Butterfly

^ yes please expand, I might not following how extremist jews wouldn't want a state of Israel

Make the difference between the religious belief and the political belief. The difference between Zionism and Orthodox Judaism, they are not one and the same, they are even diametrically opposed in many cases.

They won't joing the IDF because of this, not because they don't believe in violence, as can be seen whey they turn on their own people to 'defend' their strict beliefs.

Two of my girl's Godmothers are Jewish, fairly unreligious and don't keep kosher, and we discussed many topics and I was just as surprised when one of their daughters mentioned that she had been to Yad Vashem and heard debates about this topic.

Here's a good read, albeit of a small segment of the population:
BBC NEWS | UK | Magazine | Why are Jews at the 'Holocaust denial' conference?

Here's a good source as well:

Usenet FAQ Archive Search

Again, the big difference is between Zionism and Conservative/Orthodox Judaism

Norton is older than our resident Methuselah, Blackgang? I didn't think that was possible . . . at least N isn't suffering from brain calcification . . . quite the opposite, really.

Originally Posted by panama hat

Norton is older than our resident Methuselah, Blackgang?

Not quite. BG is about 10 years older than I am.

Originally Posted by Norton

BG is about 10 years older than I am.

that's what ? like 80 years old ? jesus, I bet he wets his pants everytime he posts his rants on TD

That was an excellent post Norton. And Yes by the English Army giving everything to the Palestines and leaving most things unsettled and they did know that a war would happen as soon as they left it did seem as if they did approve.

Originally Posted by panama hat

at least N isn't suffering from brain calcification . . . quite the opposite, really.

Nor is he suffering from no brain at all like Panama Hat, who BTW has to have 2 godmothers for his girls, poor simple prick.

Originally Posted by blackgang

they do so much to advance a forum,

and you do with your constant trailer trash racist speak ? you are a turd BG, and you can take that to your diaper

Interesting story on the 2 state solution and why it's not wanted, nor possible now.

Originally Posted by Bugs

There is no doubt the settlements complicate the two state solution, but I don’t think it makes a two state solution impossible by any stretch.

So what if Israeli settlers/settlements end up in the state of Palestine?

Said settlers will have to accept the fact they live in the new Palestinian state or pick up and move back to Israel.

With 500,000 settlers there I don't see them accepting to live in a Palestinian state, nor moving back to Israel.

Originally Posted by Milkman

With 500,000 settlers there I don't see them accepting to live in a Palestinian state, nor moving back to Israel.

But it's not up to those 500,000 people.

Again it ain't going to be easy - for either side. But I still feel that a two state solution is the only real solution.

Forgive me if I cover old ground…I’m jumping into this thread late.

During a year backpacking in Europe and Middle East (1974-75), I spent 4 months in Israel not because I’m a Jew (I’m not) but because I wanted to see what a commune life style that worked (Kibbutz) was like. I went with the standard American attitude of the day — well propagandized idealism that assumed Israel’s moral right to be there. What I saw there (kicking people out of there homes in the Old City of Jerusalem and European “Ashkenazi” racism towards Arabs and even “Semitic” or “dark skinned” Jews) was the beginning of turning my head around.

In 1948, Israel was established as a Jewish state under the pretext that “This land is mine, God gave it to me 3000 years ago. Now the rest of you people who have been living there for generations are clearly a bunch of religious fanatics and have to get out.” In 1967 Israel struck first –read attacked—Egypt and other surrounding states ostensibly to cripple their ability to attack Israel. That may have been a legitimate fear, but in the process they also took the entire West Bank and have illegally occupied it since against International Law, using settlements and ethnic cleansing of indigenous Palestinians to build their little empire. Denying medical care, food and water to Gaza has turned that territory into Israel’s Warsaw Ghetto. By using cluster bombs and phosphorous bombs on civilian populations, Israel has turned itself into what can only be called a terrorist state. Obviously war crimes are committed by the other side as well, but 1) Israel is at least able to aim its rockets and 2) they also hide their “citizen soldiers” in the civilian population by bringing children into their settlements.

If anybody thinks any of this makes me an anti-Semite, what should worry them is that I’m NOT an anti-Semite. This is not the doing of “The Jews” as racists on the flip side of the coin like to say—it is the doing of the State of Israel. Whatever pretext of “moral authority” it once presumed to take over the neighborhood has been lost. A two state solution is the best of bad situation, and if Israel can’t accept it, there will never be peace and it will destroy itself.

A brief review of history:

^ spreading like a cancer

Originally Posted by Butterfly

^ spreading like a cancer

Cancer almost always wins in the end.

^ there is chemical and nuke treatment though

Originally Posted by Butterfly

^ there is chemical and nuke treatment though

Many times those kill the patient right along witht he cancer - is it worth it?

There is probably a better joo thread to put this in but I have this one open already. Just another artical about another US Congressman being in the pocket of Israel (maybe):

Pelosi knew Harman was overheard on wiretap - Capitol Hill- msnbc.com

Congressional Quarterly reported Monday that Harman was overheard in a National Security Agency wiretap agreeing to seek lenient treatment for two former employees of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee who were under investigation and later indicted for unlawfully possessing and disclosing classified information.

In exchange, according to CQ, prominent pro-Israel contributors would press Pelosi to appoint Harman to the chairmanship of the House Intelligence Committee.

Harman has vehemently denied contacting the Justice Department or White House to intervene in the case and has asked Justice to release a transcript of the intercepted phone conversation.

I good interview on the origins of the Khazaris and the current state of Israel.

Part 1:


Part 2: