Thread: koran, allah, and all things islam

Originally Posted by Eliminator

No he's saying there is no room for sharia law in western society.

He is? Ok I'll take your word for it, you seem to be able to converse with him. Me, I'm not conversant in idiotnese.

Originally Posted by Eliminator

You really are dim witted

Originally Posted by Eliminator

Why don't you just go away like you said you were?

Why do you ride a gay bike?

Now read this if you want to see the impact of muslim immigration in Europe. In this case Brussels (Belgium)

Brussels: The visibility of Islam

Earlier this week I posted a translation of an article about demographics in Brussels from the French-language Belgian weekly Le Vif/L'Express. The following is another article from the same series, this time about the reality of Islam in Brussels.




In certain neighborhoods of Brussels, new cultural and religious codes are enforced. Religious demands enter uninvited into public life, work, school, hospitals. Islam, faith or collection of customs, is becoming more and more visible in Brussels.



Why speak of 'Muslims' when the ethnic patchwork of Brussels allows a thousand other labels? Because there's much that claims this characteristic loud and clear. In 2009, a survey by the King Baudouin Foundation on the population issues of the Moroccan immigration found that 55% of Belgian-Moroccans defined themselves first as Moroccans (compared to just 7% as Belgians). 36% of them also put being Muslim first. In 2008, the same sort of survey on Belgian-Turks again showed that 40.6% of Belgian Turks define themselves as Turks, and 31% as Muslim Turks.

[ Ed: The study here in PDF. Q: What defines you most? A: Turkish citizen: 21.8%, Turkish: 28.8%, Kurdish: 2.8%, Muslim: 19%, Muslim-Turk: 31%, Belgian citizen: 4.8%, Belgian-Turk: 19.8%, Euro-Turk: 3.8%, World citizen: 10.5%, Eu citizen: 3%]

The weight of the cultural systems of origin is far from fading away to a lasting presence, validated by access to double nationality.

Unlike Paris, where the minorities live in the suburbs (banlieus), in Brussels they rather have a tendency to gather in the central municipalities, inside the 'little belt' and on both sides of the canal. It's also where poverty shows up the most, where dropping out of school is at its maximum, where more than 50% of the youth are unemployed, and sometimes occupied by the 'business' of looking for things to steal. Recently those neighborhoods seemed to spin out of control. The quiet is back. But sudden clashes between youth and police, between 'Whites' and 'immigrants', and between urban religion-based gangs (Arabs Muslims against Protestant Pentecostal Africans) are always possible.

At other times these tensions have been explained by economic insecurity and uprooting. Why add the religious ingredient?

"Religion in itself says nothing about social issues," says sociologist Eric Corijn (Vrije Universitiet Brussels). "You always need the link between religion and other social phenomenon. In the 1960s and 1970s, immigrants defined themselves by their work. With the economic crisis they found warmth, mutual aid and protection within their own communities. They've become more dependent on the economic plan which emphasized their ethnic, cultural and religious identification. But its' always unhealthy and even dangerous to cover these social dynamics with generalizing prejudices towards religions."

All the more so as a large number of Muslims in Belgium try to succeed in their integration, adapting to the entirety of our society, and enriching it. Nonetheless, certain social dynamics appear under a religious label, presenting problematic aspects. Description in four points.


1. Neighborhoods tend to become halal and suffocating

The exclusive presence of a community can create ghettos, resulting sometimes in truly difficult relationships between the residents.

The arrival of Europe [ed: the EU offices] in the Schuman district led to the progressive disappearance of working-class life. The same goes in the neighborhoods where there's an overwhelming Muslim majority. The 'others' feel excluded. A paradox: while the Muslim community is trying to obtain the preservation of its peculiarities, in very stereotypical neighborhoods, a non-Muslim will look in vain for a non-halal butcher, or an alcohol bar. The simple effect of market law? Undoubtedly. But it changes daily life and modifies perceptions. With regrets and sadness for some. With anger for others.

In 'old Molenbeek', for example, alcoholic beverages aren't served anymore in the social restaurant and the cultural center, supported by the municipality, and in the small cafe across from the police station, run by a Turk. In the public markets Arabic is spoken and the veil is omnipresent, but it's the religious atmosphere that's disturbing.

Alderman François Schepmans says that a few months ago she told Le Vif/L'Express that the fact that the center of Molenbeek looks like Marrakesh isn't a problem, but that it shouldn't be allowed to be transformed into Peshawar. She says she was attacked by the socialists, who belong to the same coalition as she does, and that she had to explain to certain fellow party politicians that she didn't intend to emphasize ethnic origin, but rather the dangerous grip of a religion on life and society.

In the cafeterias of certain municipal schools pork also disappeared, but no municipality has crossed over to imposing halal meat, despite attempts by some elected officials in Molenbeek and Schaarbeek.

The new social codes enforced in the street are difficult to attribute to a religion rather than lack of parenting and respect for the 'other'. But the facts are thus: girls too shortly dressed or without a veil are called 'whores'. Malika (a pseudonym), a North African police agent, disinclined to ban the veil, revised her position. She says when she was in the Molenbeek market, she got disagreeable remarks from certain merchants just because she was dressed as a European. "Life isn't easy for the girls in the district," she says.

In certain streets an 'immigrants' who walks around with a visibly Belgian friend risks quickly being shouted at 'what are you doing with this Fleming?" [Belgian]. Gay couples and prostitutes don't have a saintly smell either and are sometimes attacked by the little hoodlums who emerge as the defenders of Islam.

During Ramadan or when leaving the mosque, the cars are double-parked and are a disaster, without anybody daring to comment. Guido Vanderhulst, activist for promoting heritage in Sint-Jans-Molenbeek (La Fonderie), former partner of Philippe Moureaux (PS) when the latter welcomed immigrants in the 1990s, says there was so much laxity regarding this uncivil behavior that only an authority to develop citizenship is capable of bringing back mutual respect in the streets. Due to the deterioration of the situation, he advocates setting up a committee of the wise to restore the rules of life together.


2. The 'deals' between mayors and mosques

The mosques are more than a place for prayer. They direct and govern the Muslims, better than the phantom Muslim Executive of Belgium. The politicians realized that, as did Philippe Moureaux, who goes several times a year and congratulates himself for their collaboration.

The mayor of Schaarbeek, Bernard Clerfayt (FDF) is determined to have their attention, even as he gave up his 'courtesy visits' during the elections period.

Not very well known to the public, the presidents of the mosques have access to real power of influence. Yet they're without democratic legitimacy and sometimes dependent on their country of origin. In Schaarbeek the president of the Turkish mosque seats on the municipal council for MR. Philippe Moureaux himself was proposed one day the presidency of a Moroccan mosque. A beautiful tribute to a man with practical experience, but nonetheless a confusion of genres.

According to Corrine Torrekens, author of Islam in Brussels, two municipalities give an annual subsidy to Muslim places of worship: Molenbeek (35,000 euro to be distributed by the advisory council of mosques) and Schaarbeek (50,000 euros to the Association of Mosques, which need to use it in part to organize the Festival of Sacrifice). Sint-Joost, in contrast, refuses to speak formally with the 'spiritual chiefs'. Emir Kir, regional minister for urbanization (PS), often presented as the successor of mayor Jean Demannez (PS), regrets that.

In the Brussels region, there are 80 mosques and 116 Catholic churches, 17 Protestant churches, 13 Orthodox churches, 2 Anglicans and about fifteen synagogues. According to Corinne Torrekens, 80% of the Muslim religious resources and associations are concentrated in the five municipalities (Molenbeek, Anderlecht, Brussels City, Sint-Joost and Schaarbeek) where 75% of the Muslims of Brussels live. And less and less Christians and Jews.. Is it conceivable that certain deserted places of worship are regained by the local Muslim communities? In the current climate, such a transfer will be perceived symbolically in terms of losing or gaining territory by the extremists on all sides, says a priest of a parish concerned with the issue. In principle, Cardinal Danneels has always been opposed. "The Catholic Church prefers to entrust its properties to the new Catholic arrivals, or to other Christian communities."

On Eloy street, in Kuregem, not far from the new apartment of Archbishop Léonard (Primate of Belgium), the St. Francis Xavier church is today taken over by Catholic Africans, but its stained-glass windows have already been broken in the past. The old synagogues of Anderlecht and Schaarbeek have been abandoned, both because the more well-off Jewish families moved to Vorst and Ukkel, but also because of the feeling of insecurity which reigns in the area.

Chief Rabbi [of Brussels] Albert Guigui explained to newspaper La Capitale that they're opened only for the Jewish high-holidays.


3. The clash of memories and debates

What attention will be given to the small museums, the religious edifices, the architecture and statues, testimony of a history that Muslims know poorly, with which they don't identify much, to which they're sometimes hostile? Or does the future or Brussels lie in their hands? The forming of these future municipal elites is crucial.

"You don't create a city by starting with a clean slate from the past," expects Giudo Vanderhulst. He says that in a historical continuity, the new communities must act like those that preceded them, that's to say, assuming part of the old heritage, from which follow the values such as democracy and solidarity.

The presence of Islam brings about new debates and 'memories' which sometimes enter into a conflict with the old. While the senate recognized in 1998 the existence of the genocide of Christians in the Ottoman Empire, sanctioned as 'jihad' by the Muslim scholars of the era, socialist Laurette Onkelinx, Justice Minister (PS) hedged in 2005 in order to avoid enabling the penalization of the denial [negationism] of the Armenian genocide. She was seeking then to be mayor of Schaarbeek, where there's an important Turkish community. The PS didn't want to deprive itself of its regional champion, Emir Kir, an author of negationist sentiments.

Another wound, antisemitism, is awakened under cover of solidarity with the Palestinian people or 'anti-Zionism' with Iranian sauce. In Ukkel the Jewish holidays must be guarded. Certain satellite TV channels continuously pour out anti-Western discourse and reinforce the phenomena of identifying with distant wars (Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan). In the margins of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, certain community leaders test out their influence on Belgian diplomacy, and when they crash into failure, it leads to sentiments such as this: 'Don't wait for these young Brussels residents to be so estranged and stigmatized that they'll adopt 'your' values, because the latter are bloody red! As far as I'm concerned, a young delinquent has even more credit, and a right to even more respect than a minister, a politician or the parties who make their dough from the blood of children and the civilian population.. (blog of Mohsin Mouedden)


4. Less freedom of expression in the public space

As areas become homogeneous, the risk also exists that freedom won't be guaranteed anymore, to avoid offending part of the population quick to explode. An exhibition in the center of town showing red high-heeled shoes on a prayer mat was shut down after threats. Elected immigrant officials again demanded within the PS, that the route of the Gay Pride parade will be diverted. Debate on Islam is soon perceived as blasphemy and exposed to the accusation of 'Islamophobia', to an uproar, even to physical intimidation. The former have been aimed at Muslims themselves, when they distance themselves from their group.

Islam in Europe: Brussels: The visibility of Islam

tl;dr

Some sook Mod removed my pic....whats up...worried about a fatwa on DD...its ok he already fat......ferkin sooks.

Good to see you all scared of something....girls

BTW, in Pakistan they love little boys.

Pakistani Truckers do it with Boys

'PAKISTAN: 95% of truckers have sex with boys
The name 'Pakistan' means 'Land of the Pure'. In that Islamic republic where homosexuality is a crime, the sexual exploitation of boys is an endemic practice, notably in the transport industry.

Those Muslims who denounce the moral corruption of Western secular societies are hypocrites. Children are violated in western countries of course, but those responsible are pursued and punished. In 'The Land of The Pure' , when boys are not being transformed into human bombs, they are sodomised with impunity'

Of course it isn't homosexuality when they do it with beardless boys, because being beardless means that they're classed as female under sharia law.

They are not only paedos, but most of them homos, when they don't rape small girls. Tell me about the muslims values.

About the same subject but in Afghanistan.




http://www.xxx.xxx.xx/news/stories/2...?section=world

Originally Posted by Wallalai

Those Muslims who denounce the moral corruption of Western secular societies are hypocrites.

Certainly those who choose to live in the 'decadent West' just to denounce it are particularly hypocritical. If they are so pure and devout, go and live in a pure and devout Sharia country then. No one is stopping you.

Of course, this is a small minority. Most Moslems would no more want to live under Sharia law than Westerners. And most Americans would no more want to live under a 'Moral majority' Religious Right type Christian theocracy than would American Moslems. Our nations are secular, thank goodness.


^^ No linkie supplied Wallalai. Dunno what Blog that may be from, but this references the NGO survey it is based on-

NGO Claims 95% of Pakistani Truckers Engage In Homosexual Sex With Boys Therearenosunglasses’s Weblog

^

95% truckers ‘indulge in sex with helpers’

Things are starting to look better for Saudi Women. Firemen are allowed to rescue them now....even if they don't wear a veal.


RIYADH: They cruise the streets in huge Chevrolet Suburbans, watching for shops that don't close for prayers, staking out cafes for possibly unmarried couples on illicit liaisons — known as “dates” in any other culture. The religious police, Saudi Arabia's front-line defenders of draconian Islamic controls on public behaviour, are now in reformers' headlights.


But fear of their power and their backing by the hardline religious establishment is making the battle a difficult one.
The sacking and then apparent reinstatement this week of the most outspoken progressive in the Commission to Promote Virtue and Prevent Vice underscored the tensions behind the battle.
The general manager of the muttawa in the holy city of Mecca, Sheikh Ahmed al-Ghamdi, was declared replaced Sunday in an order signed by the commission's president, Sheikh Abdulaziz al-Humain, after having repeatedly declared his opposition to bans on gender mixing and requirements that Muslim men pray in groups, preferably in mosques.
“There is nothing in Islamic law about mixing,” Ghamdi had repeatedly said.
But that directly contradicted one of his key duties, to prevent fraternising between unrelated members of the sexes.
Hours later Humain's order was cancelled with no explanation. Saudi media hinted that the reversal involved very high intervention from the country's royal government.
It was a rare public tussle in the mostly behind-the-scenes battle over the harsh controls Saudi Arabia's ultra-conservative Islamic clerics exert on life.
For Saudis given to modern global culture, the religious police are the bane of life. They prevent women from driving; require them to shroud their faces and bodies in all-black, shapeless abayas; block public entertainment; and force all commerce, from supermarkets to petrol stations, to come to a halt at prayer times, five times a day.
They are the reason that Saudis don't have movie theatres, that unrelated men and women cannot work in the same office, and that young men fear their cell phones will be searched for “illicit” photos and messages from unrelated girls.
Last year the semi-autonomous Saudi National Human Rights Association suggested in a report they were out of control.
“The commission enjoys extensive power including catching, arresting, inspecting and investigating. These authorities are not clearly specified in the commission's law and its regulation, and as a result there is a fear that their acts may violate the rights of individuals.”
But for many humble, simple Saudis, the commission is a godsend, more trusted than the regular police to prevent things like alcohol, prostitution, and magic and sorcery from eroding the foundations of Saudi Arabia's fundamentalist Wahhabi brand of Islam.
Although they fall under the interior ministry, they operate with great autonomy, and maintain a close alliance with both the courts — where all the judges are Islamic clerics — and the powerful Grand Ulema, the supreme council of religious scholars who define the Islamic rules governing life.
Religious police spokesman Abdul Mohsen al-Ghaffari told AFP last year they hate the name “religious police” and prefer “Al-Hisbah,” those who hold people accountable to the laws of Islam.
“We are focusing on societal ills,” he said.
“The focus is to ensure that shariah law is practiced.”
A number of cases in recent years have outraged even Saudis and embarrassed the government. In 2002, they prevented firemen from entering an all-girls school that was ablaze, leading to the deaths of 14.
And the arrest a few years ago of an American businesswoman meeting a man in a Saudi Starbucks sparked a US complaint.
Such incidents are believed to have prompted King Abdullah to install Humain to reform the commission a year ago.
Humain hired consultants to restructure the organisation, met local human rights groups, and consulted professional image builders in a broad public relations campaign.
The commission also investigated and punished some out-of-control officers for misbehaviour.
It launched regular training sessions as well, including five-day courses on “skills to deal with witches and sorcerers” and the three-day “skills to deal with tourists.”
The organisation now must only undertake enforcement action together with police, and it has stopped using the untrained volunteers blamed for the worst incidents of the past, Ghaffari said.
Many people in Riyadh say they are harassed less than before for exposing their faces, wearing decorated abayas, or meeting with unrelated men in the family sections of restaurants.
Rights activist Fawziah al-Bakr said that the religious police were barely evident this year at the two major annual Riyadh public events, the Janadriyah fair and the international book fair.
“I hated to go to Janadriyah in the past because the muttawa hassle women all the time,” she said.
“And the only person who approached me at the book fair this year for not covering my face was another woman.”
Christoph Wilcke of Human Rights Watch says the group may have lightened up a bit but fundamental changes are still needed.
"They've been working on piecemeal reform. The big reform actually hasn't happened," including a new law under study which would define their mission and remove law enforcement powers.

As you can see, with the help of the bright EU government, our future life will be under the islamic flag living a happy life with our veiled wife.

Together with Anjem Choudary and Sayful Islam of Islam4UK he called to introduce Sharia in Belgium and Europe, and the overthrow the Belgian system. "So that the flag of Allah flies above the Palace and Parliament."

It may be worth noting that Choudary and his bunch of cretins are pretty much universally hated by UK Muslims.
Sorry if the truth gets in the way of your hatefest.

Originally Posted by mr Fred

Together with Anjem Choudary and Sayful Islam of Islam4UK he called to introduce Sharia in Belgium and Europe, and the overthrow the Belgian system. "So that the flag of Allah flies above the Palace and Parliament."

It may be worth noting that Choudary and his bunch of cretins are pretty much universally hated by UK Muslims.
Sorry if the truth gets in the way of your hatefest.

Proof? link? Just you saying it doesn't make it so I'm sorry to say.

Tolerance in islam sect.

Persecution of Ex-Muslims - WikiIslam

Tolerant muslims shouting "Sharia for Belgium" in UK.

Muslim Women: Say Goodbye to Jeans

As of Thursday authorities in a devoutly religious sector of Indonesia’s Aceh providence have disseminated 20,000 long skirts to Muslim women for inappropriate attire. Shops in the district that sell or display tight clothing can have their license revoked. The new rules apply to the Aceh providence’s Muslim population said Ramil Mansu, head of West Aceh district.

Mansu explained to the Associated Press that the skirts are given to women wearing clothing that fails to meet the restrictive dress code. These measures are all part of a two month campaign to enforce the regulation and promote strict moral values. As described by Mansur, inappropriate clothing is determined by the Islamic police. If the dress code is violated the risqué clothing is confiscated and a long skirt is given in return.

On Thursday during a police raid, 18 women wearing jeans received long skirts and only after speaking with Islamic preachers were the women released from police custody.

Imma, a 40-year-old housewife argued, "I am not wearing sexy outfits, but they caught me like a terrorist only because of my jeans.”

Muslim Women: Say Goodbye to Jeans | TheCelebrityCafe.com

Enjoy freedom.

Looking forward to the next world war, should wipe out at least half the mussies, Damn sure,it would clear up a lot of problems around the planet if they were gone. Sure would give more food for the rest of the world, and we wouldn't have to worry about them wanting to kill people for CARTOONS.

Originally Posted by barbaro

Wasn't it the leader of Malaysia that stated, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. You're either Muslim, or you're not."

My point.

This IS, about Islam. Be it in Aceh, in Indonesia, or anywhere else.

I don't care what these muslims can or cannot do elsewhere as the is Muslims in Aceh.

But the way the Aceh government treats women is not the same as the rest of Indonesia. If that is the case how can you treat all as the same when they are so clearly not?

Originally Posted by barbaro

Wasn't it the leader of Malaysia that stated, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. You're either Muslim, or you're not." My point. This IS, about Islam. Be it in Aceh, in Indonesia, or anywhere else.

Does that mean there are no moderate Christians because some of them go around killing or sanction the killing of abortion doctors?

Think about it.

Originally Posted by mr Fred

Originally Posted by barbaro

Wasn't it the leader of Malaysia that stated, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. You're either Muslim, or you're not."

My point.

This IS, about Islam. Be it in Aceh, in Indonesia, or anywhere else.

I don't care what these muslims can or cannot do elsewhere as the is Muslims in Aceh.

But the way the Aceh government treats women is not the same as the rest of Indonesia. If that is the case how can you treat all as the same when they are so clearly not?

It's not "treating" it's perceiving and believing them to be the same because they are:

Muslim.

They believe, that the Quran is the direct word of god.


Period.

Originally Posted by MrG

Originally Posted by barbaro

Wasn't it the leader of Malaysia that stated, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim. You're either Muslim, or you're not." My point. This IS, about Islam. Be it in Aceh, in Indonesia, or anywhere else.

Does that mean there are no moderate Christians because some of them go around killing or sanction the killing of abortion doctors?

Think about it.

I was referring to Islam, not Xtianity.

Different book, the bible, not containing the "direct" words of god.

Crossing over to different religions, obfuscates the point.


(As you all know, I'm a non-theist.)