Thread: Womens' Issues

I'd love to see what other posters think about Muslim women's rights. I'm open for positive discussion.

Do they have any?

Why don't we discuss what the Koran has to say and then discuss the interpretation as applied?

Without a basis for why a woman would or would not have certain rights it becomes unfair to blame it on religion unless there's a specific basis for it in scripture.

^ Defensive already?

Not at all.

Remember, the Bible says: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

I am not familiar with the Koran all that much and was wondering if there were similar passages that led to women having second class status in most Western cultures until very recently.

Xtianity and Islam both put men above women.

This is because, both are old forms of orders, of ways to live.

Antiquated and out-dated.

Garbage.

Originally Posted by Milkman

Xtianity and Islam both put men above women.

This is because, both are old forms of orders, of ways to live.

Antiquated and out-dated.

Garbage.

Yes, but Christianity is not - I'm struggling for the right words here - not so strongly a part of every day life, not so intrusive as Islam appears to be for Muslims.

And most people who call themselves Christians ignore a great deal of what the Bible says. I don't think that's the case for Muslims and the Koran.

And most people who call themselves Christians ignore a great deal of what the Bible says.

Apart from the American ones.

Originally Posted by surasak

Why don't we discuss what the Koran has to say and then discuss the interpretation as applied?

Without a basis for why a woman would or would not have certain rights it becomes unfair to blame it on religion unless there's a specific basis for it in scripture.

I will start. But before I want to say a couple of things.
The Koran has got to be one of the bloodiest books in History. The words blood, kill, punishment, you have to..if not, revenge, hell fire, the sword, beheaded, capture, refuse, penalty, cut off hands etc. (Come to think of it I might write down all these words and write a new book called the "Satanic Words").
I will take verses out of the Koran and post them here, but I know the answers to them already.
Wrong translation! Can't translate the word of god! The Koran was written in old arabic and no one can translate.
Anyway, a book no matter what you call it, should never be read or studied to a person below 18 years.

At least with Christianity, it is evolving, muslims are not.

At least with Christianity, it is evolving, muslims are not.

I dunno, I was married to a beer drinking muslim in Turkey who had a penchant for bacon and gammon.
Seriously, my mother had to bring in big hams everytime she came over.

Originally Posted by Eliminator

At least with Christianity, it is evolving, muslims are not.

Actually if you think about it Islam is a much younger religion than Christianity, say about 5-600 years, if you look back that ammount of time into Christianity's past some of the resemblences are startling

Both Islam and Christianity can be interpreted in a variety of ways. Both Christians and Muslims range from being almost secular liberals (like myself) who occasionally find comfort and guidance in organized religion, to fundamentalists who would rather have the certainty of having most of their difficult decisions made for them.

One point that is often overlooked in these discussions is the difficulty of separating religion and culture. For example, the Episcopalian communion has deep divisions between its conservative African and Asian members and it's more liberal English and American members! The church nearly split recently over the issue of ordination of gay priests.

There are similar issues in the Muslim world. For instance, most of the new central Asian republics that were formerly part of the USSR have populations that are majority Muslim, however, these people have been so westernized that they probably have more in common with the Orthodox Russians than they do with the Saudis!

The reasons that many Arabs treat women badly are rooted in their culture. IMHO they are just using their interpretation of their religion to justify their cultural preferences.

Women want a man who is sensitive, romantic and caring ... not you clowns who roll off after 4-5 strokes, puff on a ciggie and take a swig of beer before you pass out. It doesn't matter if they're Christian, Muslim or Buddhist.

please, let's pause for a round of clitorectomies.

Originally Posted by surasak

Not at all.

Remember, the Bible says: Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the savior of the body.

its fundamently flawed to quote the bible for guidance like that. this is why.

1. ppl tend to forget the bible is not actually one book - its a complimation of many pieces of scripture. basically each 'chapter' is a different book with different authors.

and a number of them actually have multiple authors eg: the gospel of Mark is suspected to have at least 2/3 authors. (and they were not really called Mark either.)

2.there is/are many more pieces of scripture that could have been included. including other Gospels. it was a group of priests or brothers (i forget right now) in the middle ages that decided what to include and not include. eg: there is a gospel that describes Jesus performing magic - such as lengthening a piece of wood his father (the carpernter) had cut too short. in this case it was decided that ppl would misread that miracle as witchcraft - which they were trying to eradicate.

3. In many cases the Jews and early Christians used an oral tradition - so these books were not actaully written until long after events (years and decades)

4. it was written by PEOPLE.

5. with agenda's - for a SPECIFIC audience.

6. its been translated through several languages.

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

The Koran has got to be one of the bloodiest books in History.

put it into context !

I know you've mentioned the Koran - which I know little about so I'll mention somehting I do know a little abt i.e. the bible and the the biblical eye for an eye thing

the ppl of the time lived in tribes. for the tribe to survive it had to look after its own - !

retruibution was bloody and overkill.

by telling the tribes to ONLY take an eye for an eye was a means of reducing the warfare that was already occuring and therefor harming the tribe in the long term.

thus it was actually a means of reducing violence.

Originally Posted by RandomChances

Originally Posted by Eliminator

At least with Christianity, it is evolving, muslims are not.

Actually if you think about it Islam is a much younger religion than Christianity, say about 5-600 years, if you look back that ammount of time into Christianity's past some of the resemblences are startling

That is the great mistake with Western mentality. Christianity has progressed from a strong central authority directing lots of bloodshed to a weaker decentralized structure with less power held by the Pope over national matters worldwide. Of course, with the decline of the Pope came the rise of American Christian Nationalism with a perverted corporate twist. Everyone in the West thinks that because we have A, therefore, everyone else should too. If we live in the US and have two cars and a house then the inhabitants of Fijumoron Island should have that too. We must use whatever economic and political force we have at our disposal to make the world in our image. If they don't then we should use our military to invade and overthrow the government so McFatty Burger can open a franchise there.

How many cultures have the West destroyed in the quest to bring Christianity to non-believers?

Some people think the Dark Ages are gone. GWB is testament that the Dark Ages merely shifted to America.

We conveniently forget the miserable past Christianity has inflicted on the world in our overzealous attempt to paint Muslims as collectively evil people. Nevermind the Crusades and witch hunts and inquisitions and threats to kill those who refuse to accept Christ during the past 2000 years, those infadel Muslims are out to kill us!

It took Christian nations almost 2000 years to give women equal rights, so, maybe we ought to cut the rest of the world a little slack if they haven't caught up yet.

The perception in the world today is that Muslim women have the fewest rights and liberties of all. This absurd view got strengthened cos of some fockwits among Muslims. Some groups and countries, such as Taliban and Saudi Arabia, forbid women to work, go to school or even drive a car.

Many of the posters here at TD thinks tht Islam teaches that women are second class citizens. They often point to the many backward customs prevalent in the Muslim world to support their argument.

The Quran, quite contrary to pre-Islamic Arab beliefs, called women the equals of men in all aspects of relgion:

For believing men and women, for devout men and women, for truthful men and women, for patient men and women, for humble men and women, for charitable men and women ..... for them has the Lord prepared forgiveness and a great reward". [Quran 33:35)

Islam actually introduced the concept of women's rights! Islam has never taught that women should be denied a political voice, and in those Muslim countries that are not ruled by kings one finds that women vote freely. Iran, which is branded as terrorist country actually has more elected woemn in government than the United States!!!

So what rights are we talking about? A country, branded as terrorist by the US, has more elected women than the US itself!

Originally Posted by Macha

Islam actually introduced the concept of women's rights!

Having to marry an older gross man the family chooses.

Having acid thrown in their face for not wearing a hijab.

Being able to legally beat and even kill one's wife.


Yep. Islam is great for women.

Originally Posted by Milkman

Originally Posted by Macha

Islam actually introduced the concept of women's rights!

Having to marry an older gross man the family chooses.

Having acid thrown in their face for not wearing a hijab.

Being able to legally beat and even kill one's wife.


Yep. Islam is great for women.

Jesus H. Christ Snaff. I thought you're one of educated posters.

* Family choosing an old bugger -----> What has it got to do with Islam?
* Acid thrown in the face for not wearing a hijab -----> Again what has it got to do with Islam?
* Beat and even kill your wife -----> Again what has it got to do with Islam?

Jesus Christ, you should do an indepth reading.