Thread: Quagmire....

SK, you claim the us hasn't made a mess in Iraq.
Can you honestly say you have made the locals feel a lot safer and they are better off now than they were before you did the Florence Nightinggale thing.

no only the does military lie to kids to get them join the military, they also lie to their families about how they were killed.

WASHINGTON - The families of seven soldiers who died in Iraq or Afghanistan were given incorrect or misleading information about the deaths, the Army has concluded after a review of war casualty reports.

i wonder how many other familes were given 'incorrect' details of how their husband/son/father died....i guess we'll never know because the army 'reviews' itself.

freedom's on the march!

Army: 7 war deaths wrongly reported - Military Affairs - MSNBC.com

hey MM

why'd you delete the photos of the crying familes?

An Iraqi police force under the militias' sway

Infiltration of force could delay handover for years, U.S. trainers suggest

And then one rainy night this month, the Sholeh police set up an ambush and killed Army Cpl. Kenny F. Stanton Jr., a 20-year-old budding journalist, his unit said. At the time, Stanton and other members of the unit had been trailing a group of Sholeh police escorting known Mahdi Army members.

"How can we expect ordinary Iraqis to trust the police when we don't even trust them not to kill our own men?" asked Capt. Alexander Shaw, head of the police transition team of the 372nd Military Police Battalion, a Washington-based unit charged with overseeing training of all Iraqi police in western Baghdad. "To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure we're ever going to have police here that are free of the militia influence."


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The top U.S. military commander in Iraq, Gen. George W. Casey Jr., predicted last week that Iraqi security forces would be able to take control of the country in 12 to 18 months. But several days spent with American units training the Iraqi police illustrated why those soldiers on the ground believe it may take decades longer than Casey's assessment.

Entire & Link: WP: Iraqi police under the militias' sway - washingtonpost.com Highlights - MSNBC.com

---
I must ask the Americans: what is the definition of victory?

A contingent of 80+ U.S. military police are leaving Fort Benning today for Iraq, to train Iraqi police.

I wonder how many will return.

Originally Posted by Milkman

Originally Posted by raycarey

hey MM

why'd you delete the photos of the crying familes?

Please put pics in the political pic thread unless it promotes or provides information that specifically reinforces your argument or provides information.

There were 4 or 5 photos of people crying, and even a person with a video camera. How does that add to anything.

It leads other to put up pics with different opinions.

Previously, there were several pics that were starting to be posted from several posters, often without any comments at all. Some groups seemed to trying to "out-pic" each other.

the moderating on this forum is PATHETIC.

you have no business being a mod on this forum. your bias is obvious to everyone!

I'm going to go to washington and kill your family.

ummmm.....

you've got bad breath.

errr.....

hold on...let me go and check those 'mod' threads for more material....

oh, shit...most of the posts have been deleted.

you mother fu*****s this is exactly what i'm talking about.

f*** you!

i'm signing off in 34 days!

Originally Posted by raycarey

hey MM

why'd you delete the photos of the crying familes?

Hey, Red ray!

What did you post the photos of crying families?

i posted those photos for several reasons, but primarily to remind some of the posters on this forum who are constantly downplaying the US casualties in iraq that there are real world implications to soldiers dying.

how many times have i read, "10X that many died at normandy. blah blah blah."

it's not a video game,
it's not a tv show.
it's not an article in stars and stripes.

lives are being destroyed.....for oil.

who will be the last soldier to die for the lies told by this administration?

Originally Posted by raycarey

i posted those photos for several reasons, but primarily to remind some of the posters on this forum who are constantly downplaying the US casualties in iraq that there are real world implications to soldiers dying.

how many times have i read, "10X that many died at normandy. blah blah blah."

it's not a video game,
it's not a tv show.
it's not an article in stars and stripes.

lives are being destroyed.....for oil.

who will be the last soldier to die for the lies told by this administration?

The Americans have been attacking, killing, and stealing for 150 years.

If someone gets killed or maimed that's the way it is.


These "American flag funerals" are just more propaganda.

They don't serve America; they serve corporate interests.

I think rc point is reasonable, the pics show the reality of this conflict, not some video games that our favorite "war supporters" would like to believe

They might be used as propaganda, but I don't see them as such.

Maybe one pic would have been enough to make a point, not the whole batch

Except that the people who deserve our sympathy are the invaded, not the invader.

I don't trust staged photo-ops showing smiling soldiers and children.

How many children do you know would willingly go up to a foreign devil and smile for a photo?

Originally Posted by surasak

I don't trust staged photo-ops showing smiling soldiers and children.

How many children do you know would willingly go up to a foreign devil and smile for a photo?

For candy and sweets - most kids would. My mother told me of getting sweets from German troops stationed near her home during WW2. Most of them were probably conscripts with small kids back home in Germany.

Even Hitler, Stalin and Mao were photographed surrounded by smiling children. AND there were people crying when they passed away.

Hence, pictures of grieving people at funerals and soldiers with smiling children prove - nothing!

WASHINGTON, Oct. 30 — A classified briefing prepared two weeks ago by the United States Central Command portrays Iraq as edging toward chaos, in a chart that the military is using as a barometer of civil conflict.

A one-page slide shown at the Oct. 18 briefing provides a rare glimpse into how the military command that oversees the war is trying to track its trajectory, particularly in terms of sectarian fighting.

Military Charts Movement of Conflict in Iraq Toward Chaos - New York Times

Ray,

above you note the military's assessment.

But who is making the decisions?

Largely, civilians.

From the start, civilians and politicians have been making many of the decisions. This is what happened in Vietnam.

Even JCS General Peter Pace, who is supposed to give objective advice to the civilians is sounding political.

Check out Army Gen. Creighton Abrams, and what he thought of life-long civilians who never served in the military looking at maps and charts and directing the military on how and what to do, and what not, to do.

Vietnam reduex.

Re: Vietnam...

Secretary of Defense McNamara made bad decisions in the mid-60's that resulted in escalation of troop levels and, subsequently, casualties. A few years ago, he went public with a mea culpa, apologizing for those decisions and saying he was wrong in the way he handled the military decisions.

Can you imagine Donald Rumsfeld admitting error in 20 years? I think not.

There is an increasing rumble among retired officers regarding the leadership in the Department of Defense -- active officers keep it to themselves.

Elections are next Tuesday. My expectation is that Rumsfeld is gone after the elections. If he isn't, the current administration is more intractable than I thought.

That current administration is more suicidal than anything else. GW Bush is the equivalent of a political suicide bomber. He will rather bring everyone down with him than trying to correct things and admit he was wrong.

Originally Posted by raycarey

I'm going to go to washington and kill your family.

Yep...ol' red ray has finally snapped - gone 'round the bend.
Gotta get a grip if you're a TELFler responsible for children's welfare there ray...

Originally Posted by Milkman

Ray,

above you note the military's assessment.

But who is making the decisions?

Largely, civilians.

From the start, civilians and politicians have been making many of the decisions. This is what happened in Vietnam.

Even JCS General Peter Pace, who is supposed to give objective advice to the civilians is sounding political.

Check out Army Gen. Creighton Abrams, and what he thought of life-long civilians who never served in the military looking at maps and charts and directing the military on how and what to do, and what not, to do.

Vietnam reduex.

I pointed this out several times: the lack of military service by any of the civilians (even POTUS) who got us into this mess.

John Kerry hit it right yesterday. It's not Kerry's joke being misread that's the problem but the lack of anyone in the administration who got us into this mess having a uniform in their closet.

This is clearly the greatest strategic blunder in our history.

Actually, George W was a pilot in the National Guard (or Reserve?) -- that was what the controversy was about in his first election, since at that time the Guard or Reserve was considered as much of a Vietnam draft dodge as the student deferments (and really, who the hell cared?). However, no one could ever reconstruct all the time he was supposed to have been on duty..had a penchant for simply not taking physicals and not showing up for assigned weekend duty.

Originally Posted by gulfcoast

Actually, George W was a pilot in the National Guard (or Reserve?) -- that was what the controversy was about in his first election, since at that time the Guard or Reserve was considered as much of a Vietnam draft dodge as the student deferments (and really, who the hell cared?). However, no one could ever reconstruct all the time he was supposed to have been on duty..had a penchant for simply not taking physicals and not showing up for assigned weekend duty.

Dan Rather and Marla Maples lost their jobs over that bullshit story. Since you seem to believe it I gotta assume you're a few slices short of a full loaf as well.

I really meant more in terms of being higher up...like a general or admiral.

Originally Posted by gulfcoast

There is an increasing rumble among retired officers regarding the leadership in the Department of Defense -- active officers keep it to themselves.

Wonder why Admiral (ret) Vern Clark isn't whining publicly ? He lost out out the JCS job for standing up too strongly to Rumsfield.

Less than 10 out of probably something like over 500 retired Flag Officers have spoken out against Rumsfield.