Thread: Quagmire....

^ Yes, we don't know half of it.

That's be design.

One certainly can't call himself a true conservative and support the monkey in the White House at this moment.

During the occupation of Lebanon by American, French, and Israeli troops between 1982 and 1986, there were 41 suicide terrorist attacks in that country. One horrific attack killed 241 U.S. Marines. Yet once these foreign troops were removed, the suicide attacks literally stopped. Today we should once again rethink our policy in this region.

It's amazing what ending military intervention in the affairs of others can achieve. Setting an example of how a free market economy works does wonders.

We should have confidence in how well freedom works, rather than relying on blind faith in the use of military force to spread our message. Setting an example and using persuasion is always superior to military force in showing how others might live. Force and war are tools of authoritarians; they are never tools of champions of liberty and justice. Force and war inevitably lead to dangerous unintended consequences.

We contained the USSR and her thousands of nuclear warheads without military confrontation, leading to the collapse and disintegration of a powerful Soviet empire. Today we trade with Russia and her neighbors, as the market economy spreads throughout the world without the use of arms.

Civil strife, if not civil war, already exists in Iraq-- and despite the infighting, all factions oppose our occupation. The insistence on using our militarily to occupy and run Iraq provides convincing evidence to our detractors inside and outside Iraq that we have no intention of leaving. Building permanent military bases and a huge embassy confirms these fears. We deny the importance of oil and Israel's influence on our policy, yet we fail to convince the Arab/Muslim world that our intentions are purely humanitarian.

In truth, our determined presence in Iraq actually increases the odds of regional chaos, inciting Iran and Syria while aiding Osama bin Laden in his recruiting efforts. Leaving Iraq would do the opposite-- though not without some dangers that rightfully should be blamed on our unwise invasion rather than our exit. Many experts believe bin Laden welcomed our invasion and occupation of two Muslim countries. It bolsters his claim that the U.S. intended to occupy and control the Middle East all along. This has galvanized radical Muslim fundamentalists against us. Osama bin Laden's campaign surely would suffer if we left.

A (True) Conservative Case for Exiting Iraq

I'll support the monkey in the whie over the the chimp in Oregon. For now ...

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

To be a Leftie today, you must believe both...

There really are no left-wingers in the U.S.

Left Wing politics doesn't usually include Israeli foreign policy. That's an old myth.

Baghdad operation working

"Operation Together Forward, the Iraqi-led operation to reduce violence in Baghdad, is progressing well and improving the security situation around the Iraqi capital, a Joint Staff official said Aug. 23. Over the last five weeks, the number of incidents of sectarian violence in Baghdad has decreased steadily, Army Brig. Gen. Michael D. Barbero, deputy director of regional operations for the Joint Staff, said at a Pentagon news conference. This success is a direct result of the efforts and dedication of Iraqis, he said. “I attribute it to an Iraqi government that has committed itself to ending sectarian violence, and I attribute it to the capability of the Iraqi security forces,” Barbero said. “Two-thirds of the forces on the ground in Baghdad are Iraqi security forces. The feedback … from the population in the areas we’ve cleared are all very positive about removing the threat of this violence, the performance of the Iraqi security forces, and their confidence in the government.” As the operation progresses, Iraqi forces take more and more responsibility for areas and missions, Barbero said"

Multi-National Force - Iraq - Baghdad operation improving security

The foreign terrorist threat posed by al-Qaida sympathizers who poured into Iraq from Iran and Syria has largely been defeated. You hear almost nothing from the news media about the fact that al-Qaida in Iraq has been effectively destroyed by our military. The violence today is largely sectarian violence between competing religious and ethnic groups.

Carlson sat silent and stunned, along with anti-war Democrat strategist Rich Masters, when I pointed out that the number of fatalities in Iraq had been dropping over the past several months. You see, both Carlson and Masters are creatures of that political-media world where truth is concocted out of do-gooder liberal ideology and facts are ignored...

The humanitarian efforts of U.S. troops are almost entirely ignored. Liberal journalists scoff at the daily reports by U.S. Central Command outlining our military's success in apprehending or killing terrorists and death squad leaders.

More here

^ More denial, it's OK, I can understand people in uniform aren't allowed to criticize the military or the CiC.

BAGHDAD, Iraq - A wave of bomb attacks and shootings swept Iraq Sunday, killing dozens of people despite a massive security operation in the capital and appeals from Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki for an end to sectarian fighting.

ADVERTISEMENT

Al-Maliki insisted that his government was making progress in combatting attacks by insurgents and sectarian clashes between Shiites and Sunnis.

"We're not in a civil war. Iraq will never be in a civil war," he said through an interpreter on CNN's "Late Edition." "The violence is in decrease and our security ability is increasing."

Never is such a strong word.

Across Iraq, Sunday's attacks left more than 50 people dead.

In downtown Baghdad, a bomb in a minibus exploded outside the Palestine Hotel, killing nine people and wounding 16, while a car bomb outside the offices of a government-run newspaper left three dead and at least 29 wounded, police and witnesses said.

Two back-to-back suicide car bombings in the northern city of Kirkuk killed nine people and wounded 22, hours after another suicide car bomb killed one person and wounded 16.

In Basra, Iraq's second largest city, 340 miles southeast of Baghdad, a motorcycle bomb at a night market killed four people and wounded 15, the governor's office said.

Iraq bomb attacks, shootings kill dozens - Yahoo! News

Originally Posted by surasak

^ More denial, it's OK, I can understand people in uniform aren't allowed to criticize the military or the CiC.

Sure we can. We just aren't allowed to do it while in uniform. We can go to rally's and that sort of thing as long as we don't it on our own time and don't mispresent our own opinions as being those of others in the military. As long as we go to work on time ... stand our watches ... and deploy when told, we're free to express our own opinions. People above you might not like it and it's even possible that your opinion might negatively impact your career if that's what you want ... but then that doesn't make sense either if you want a career in the military but don't like what the mission is.

You're a patronizing fool now ... I flat out think GWB is a fantastic President and agree with most of what he says. I love his deck plate style ... I love that he doesn't sounds like some pompous fool when he talks.

Some things I disagree with my boy GWB about were putting Rice as SECSTATE, I don't like his flip-flopping on immigrants (I say let them in).

Reagan was a good President. GWB is not Reagan.

Only history will tell how GWB goes down. IMHO, 25 years from now he'll still be ranked as having been better than at least Carter.

That's not much to be proud of.

Originally Posted by surasak

That's not much to be proud of.

"I would say the best moment of all was when I caught a 7.5 pound largemouth bass in my lake." --George W. Bush, on his best moment in office, interview with the German newspaper Bild am Sonntag, May 7, 2006

Originally Posted by surasak

That's not much to be proud of.

I see you're missing the seething irony which SK just slapped you with.

It not over in Iraq. We all know how you would love to see the USA fail in it's mission in Iraq just so that it would make GWB look bad.

What is happening over there is history in the making. Remember WW2 wasn't an assured victory. There were many times when victory looked doubtful.

What you need to face Mr Surasak is that your inconsolable hatred of George W. Bush has severely impaired you ability to view the situation rationally and evaluate all the news out Iraq and the ME and not just what you are spoon fed at Moron.org and similar sites.
What you don't realize in you blindness is that a defeat in Iraq will never be an option. The US has vast resources and will eventually wear down the facism which is trying to take root in the ME.

GWB is no Jimmy Carter who let the fascist Mullah Khomeni walk all over him.

^^

Supporters of the war in Iraq, as well as some non-supporters, warn of the dangers if we leave. But isn't it quite possible that these dangers are simply a consequence of having gone into Iraq in the first place, rather than a consequence of leaving? Isn't it possible that staying only makes the situation worse? If chaos results after our departure, it's because we occupied Iraq, not because we left.

The original reasons for our pre-emptive strike are long forgotten, having been based on false assumptions. The justification given now is that we must persist in this war or else dishonor those who already have died or been wounded. We're also told civil strife likely will engulf all of Iraq.

But what is the logic of perpetuating a flawed policy where more Americans die just because others have suffered? More Americans deaths cannot possibly help those who already have been injured or killed.

Civil strife, if not civil war, already exists in Iraq-- and despite the infighting, all factions oppose our occupation. The insistence on using our militarily to occupy and run Iraq provides convincing evidence to our detractors inside and outside Iraq that we have no intention of leaving. Building permanent military bases and a huge embassy confirms these fears. We deny the importance of oil and Israel's influence on our policy, yet we fail to convince the Arab/Muslim world that our intentions are purely humanitarian.

A (True) Conservative Case for Exiting Iraq

GWB is no Jimmy Carter who let the fascist Mullah Khomeni walk all over him.

Mullah Khomeni would be proud of the increased status Iran now has because of GWB's folly. Iraq is in turmoil AND now due to the lack of respect of the U.S. (Iran and NK keep building because they know we're stuck in a useless war) and loss of prestige.

Khomeni couldn't ask for better motivation for terrorism recruitment than GWB.

GW Bush is a hero only in the minds of fools and little people

Originally Posted by Mr.Earl

It not over in Iraq. We all know how you would love to see the USA fail in it's mission in Iraq just so that it would make GWB look bad.

Actually surasak didn't send the troops to free the Iraqi people and find the o called WMDs.By the way where are the WMDs.If the leader chosen by the people makes a wrong decision the whole nation suffers.Same as Iran,the leader said that he wants to destroy Israel and the whole Iranian nation has to suffer.

Originally Posted by Mr.Earl

What is happening over there is history in the making. Remember WW2 wasn't an assured victory. There were many times when victory looked doubtful.

In WW2 America was fighting against a well known enemy and the Americans knew where to find them and execute them but in Iraq they are mostly killing civilians.In Iraq America is fighting counter-insurgency war much like vietnam and you know the results of the vietnam war.

And in both cases the inhabitants didn't want us there and we had no just cause for being involved (not to mention both being religiously motivated).

Ironically America was founded on religious freedom but we won't let others have that freedom.

This is a great speech:

http://recap.fednet.net/archive/Buil...ion=&sExpire=1

Originally Posted by Butterfly

GW Bush is a hero only in the minds of fools and little people

Then you, of all people, should hold him in great esteem...

Originally Posted by surasak

And in both cases the inhabitants didn't want us there and we had no just cause for being involved (not to mention both being religiously motivated).

Ironically America was founded on religious freedom but we won't let others have that freedom.

I think many of the 5 million muslims living in the USA might disagree.
American society is one of the most diverse societies in the world.
There are many faults one can easily point fingers. Especially when you have such a large multifaceted target, no talent needed.

Your hate-america ranting is spurious without submitting something constructive.

So, where were the large scale demonstrations BEGGING for intervention?

Tell me, what other nations have we unilaterally invaded that happened to be resource poor?

Isn't it true that the Iraq threat was merely a fabricated threat so that certain, ahem, people could reap a windfall due to certain, ahem, contractors getting the rights to 'rebuild?' Has that money really been spent or has most of it simply disappeared?

You lost me somewhere after the clear and convincing evidence that Saddam had landed troops in the middle of Washington, D.C.

Vietnam was a threat in what way? Iraq was a clear and present danger in what way?

Originally Posted by surasak

Tell me, what other nations have we unilaterally invaded that happened to be resource poor?

Haiti - which has since turned into a peaceful, prosperous nation.........

Originally Posted by surasak

Vietnam was a threat in what way? Iraq was a clear and present danger in what way?

It sure is nice to have 20/20 hindsight.
Have you forgot, again, the prevaling theory at the time was something to do with dominos?

With Iraq, it was to promote democracy and expell a brutal dictator. Not that a little oil didn't factor in but the fact also remains - Saddam was promoting terrorism and had Al Queda training camps on his soil.

Your little "kumbaya" world with dancing unicorns ain't the real world, bud...

how do you come to the conclusion that it was the prevailing theory?

in the 1960s a couple of intellectuals working in the defense dept. dreamed up a rationale for war, and then got a few rubes (including the president) to believe it.

seem a bit familiar?