Thread: Is the Middle Class Decline Permanent?

Originally Posted by Panda

Originally Posted by blackgang

The only way you can do it just to actually revolt and take your chances, I did everything legal once my taxes were filed, thats the only law I broke, and I did not cry, I filed bankruptcy and the judge OK it, and I did not piss off the 1/4 million dollars, I am retired and do not worry about it, but I think it is better for me to earn it and then keep it instead of give it to politician who will give it to a nigger on welfare who will not work.

The thing is BG, is that it was NOT your money in the first place to decide how it would be spent.

No.

It was and is Blackgang's money.

And BG should decide how it should be spent - because it should have only gone straight into his pocket.

Originally Posted by Milkman

Originally Posted by Panda

Originally Posted by blackgang

The only way you can do it just to actually revolt and take your chances, I did everything legal once my taxes were filed, thats the only law I broke, and I did not cry, I filed bankruptcy and the judge OK it, and I did not piss off the 1/4 million dollars, I am retired and do not worry about it, but I think it is better for me to earn it and then keep it instead of give it to politician who will give it to a nigger on welfare who will not work.

The thing is BG, is that it was NOT your money in the first place to decide how it would be spent.

No.

It was and is Blackgang's money.

And BG should decide how it should be spent - because it should have only gone straight into his pocket.

What a load of BS!
If you want to live in a civilized ordered society and take all the advantages that brings, then you have to abide by the laws, and that includes paying the prescribed level of tax. People often disagree with the level of income tax they are paying, and/or the way the government is spending their tax money but that doesn't give them the right not to pay it. People who cheat on their tax are simply bludging on those who pay their fair share.

When it comes to paying tax, and given the opportunity, virtually everyone is to some extent a cheat.

Originally Posted by sabang

When it comes to paying tax, and given the opportunity, virtually everyone is to some extent a cheat.

I know a lot of people stretch the truth when claiming tax deductions. It aint legal and it ain't right if its a lie. Some of the cheats get caught if the tax office investigates them. But most of the false claims are are so small the tax office doesn't even bother to investigate (in Oz anyway). They generally go after the bigger fish.
I dont worry about being investigated by the tax office because I pay my fair share and only claim my fair entitlements. And I sleep pretty well at night too.

The small time cheats, while cheats and liars all the same, are not in the same league as people like MM and BG who advocate and admit to huge scale tax cheating.

Tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is legal.

I remember a few years ago that Rupert Murdochs News Corp paid one pound sterling in tax for the whole year. The gutter press was enraged, but, could do nothing as it was all perfectly legal.

I think it's been said already, but, it's the rich that can afford to pay lawyers to find ways to pay minimal tax.

If you do not like the way they are handling your money and you tell them and they do not listen, then do not give them the money anymore.

Originally Posted by Attilla the Hen

Tax evasion is illegal. Tax avoidance is legal.

I remember a few years ago that Rupert Murdochs News Corp paid one pound sterling in tax for the whole year. The gutter press was enraged, but, could do nothing as it was all perfectly legal.

I think it's been said already, but, it's the rich that can afford to pay lawyers to find ways to pay minimal tax.

Its an ongoing battle between the tax department and the smart lawyers to find the tax loop holes and to close them. Sometimes its exploiting a legal loophole to avoid paying tax and sometimes its the government who gives tax concessions to businesses so that they might grow and employ more people. We all know that big business pays very little tax. But they also create a lot of jobs. Its when they ship their labour off shore and put their profits into tax havens that it all becomes a bit dodgy. And the off shore tax haven options are slowly being closed. Much to the delight of every honest tax payer I am sure.

It's all very well for people in salaried, simple tax positions- such as teachers, military and government people- to talk about fair tax, cheating and all that. And don't get me wrong- nothing wrong with paying your fair slice of tax.

But put that same guy into a more 'flexible' tax position- say a shopkeeper, a sales rep with his expenses, or a self employed businessman- and see what happens. I was never very aggressive with my tax arrangements- but thats not to say I might not pad my expenses, thats not to say some of my deductions were of dubious business integrity.

Blimey, I know a millionaire retailer, and what he got away with on his tax was mind boggling. But then you look at the likes of Rupert Murdoch, Halliburton, and multi- millionaire Hedge fund managers in London- and who am I to point the bone.

Originally Posted by blackgang

If you do not like the way they are handling your money and you tell them and they do not listen, then do not give them the money anymore.

What a friggin cop out that is! Thats 250 K you stole off honest tax payers.

You said you owed a quarter of a million $s in unpaid tax and then fessed up and claimed bankruptcy so you didn't have to pay it back. What happened to the 250K?
Did you blow it all or sock it away somewhere? Doesn't matter much anyway since the main point is that you dodged your debt to the nation at the expense of your honest co workers while at the same time taking all the benefits your citizenship provided.



BG. Quote, ---
" If you do not like the way they are handling your money and you tell them and they do not listen, then do not give them the money anymore."

Oh yea. Is that the way it works in the land of the free? Democrats dont have to pay taxes to a Republican government and visa verse? Thats BS and you know it.
The thing is that you cheated the government of your country and your fellow workers out of $250,000 and now you are trying to make excuses to justify the scam that was purely for your own selfish benefit.

Originally Posted by sabang

It's all very well for people in salaried, simple tax positions- such as teachers, military and government people- to talk about fair tax, cheating and all that. And don't get me wrong- nothing wrong with paying your fair slice of tax.

But put that same guy into a more 'flexible' tax position- say a shopkeeper, a sales rep with his expenses, or a self employed businessman- and see what happens. I was never very aggressive with my tax arrangements- but thats not to say I might not pad my expenses, thats not to say some of my deductions were of dubious business integrity.

Blimey, I know a millionaire retailer, and what he got away with on his tax was mind boggling. But then you look at the likes of Rupert Murdoch, Halliburton, and multi- millionaire Hedge fund managers in London- and who am I to point the bone.

A good friend of mine is a millionaire a couple of times over. Not a high flier but just a very frugal businessman. He got done for cheating on his tax because he was too tight to hire an accountant and did it all himself. He paid the penalty for lying and cheating as he should. Now he has a good accountant and pays even less tax than he did before when he was cheating. I dont begrudge him a thing for claiming his fair entitlements now.

If working class taxpayers want to change the tax laws so that companies pay taxes at the same rate as employees then they should talk about it to their local political representative. Companies get tax concessions to encourage expansion and employment. So long as they stay within the law and pay their tax dues I have no problem with them getting concessions that I dont.

If you are talking about corruption and tax fraud there Sabang, then spit it out and I will be the first to support you. But you have got to come up with more conclusive evidence than just big companies pay less tax than employees to convince me that the system is rotten and tax cheating is justified.

Originally Posted by Panda

the system is rotten

The system is rotten mate, and predictably it inordinately benefits the Rich- but also folk who aren't necessarily rich, but are contractors, self employed and/or handle large amounts of cash in their livelihood. It is the "Pay as you Earn" taxpayer that is the net loser.

Which is why I advocate a total rehash of the Tax system- to a flat tax, based on consumption (VAT), income, capital gains, capital transfers and inheritance- and with an absolute minimum of complexities such as deductions. We'd all have a significantly lower tax rate then, but when it comes down to it, who would squeal the loudest?

Why, the Rich of course- you know those people who loudly complain about their tax rates, how high they are. Because of course, in reality, they are not paying that rate of tax at all- nowhere near. But who controls government, Big business and the Media? Why the Rich (of course) - which is why it isn't going to happen, neither do you hear much about common sense reform of the tax system except on the fringes.

Originally Posted by blackgang

See that Blue Lipped asshole running around the world in that 740 fucking 7 spending money he ain't got and giving it away by the billions and trillions to everyone he says Hi to.
Thats the reason that there is no more middle class, they have taxed them out of existence and they will never ever be again.
When I bust my hump to make a good living and the govt takes 65% of my gross income and gives it away, I say fuck it, and I retired at 58 years old and took another high tax payer out of the system, a lot of others did too, but not 1 swinging dick came off the welfare dole.
But you Pandy, set there in your little corner and run off at the mouth about shit you have no fucking idea about.

Wow, you're such a class act, you are.

Originally Posted by Panda

The thing is that the tax component of your income is not "your money".

Actually, I disagree with the concept you advance, but on a technicality -- the entirety of the money earned is 'my' money, but it is up to me to reduce my tax obligations as much as possible - this is possible under the current system, sometimes to near zero (just look at what the 'big boys' are doing), for example by setting up a company that pays you $1 per year for your work, yet provides you with all the resources you need - as such, those resources become tax write-offs that reduce your overal tax liabilities -- if on the other hand you accept the same amount as wages and salaries, you increase your tax liabilities, and still have the same costs for your resources.

Dumb people don't keep track of those numbers, and they find themselves in trouble - which is apparently what happened to BG, and he was lucky enough to find a lawyer (who took his money too) to show him a quick and dirty way out. Now, look where he's at and what does he have to show for his lifetime of work?

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Dumb people don't keep track of those numbers, and they find themselves in trouble - which is apparently what happened to BG, and he was lucky enough to find a lawyer (who took his money too) to show him a quick and dirty way out. Now, look where he's at and what does he have to show for his lifetime of work?

Actually none of what you say has anything to do with me.
I was not in business so had no business write offs.
I met some lawyers at an AA meeting and the info was free, I wanted to get the IRS off my back and to do so I had to file back taxes, so he told me who to see.
I did that and the CPA told me the laws and rules, which I did and thats the story.
And I have not worked much of a job since 1990, couple of short time, High Paying jobs for like, one was for 5 weeks and I got $15K.
So I would say I am in a pretty good place now.

Originally Posted by blackgang

Originally Posted by Panda

$250,000 and now you are trying to make excuses to justify the scam that was purely for your own selfish benefit.

No, No Pandy, can't you comprehend what you read, $287,000.00, Plus there was 4 state income tax's added to that..

And as Sabang says, People are and all were in favor of a flat rate tax, 10% for everyone, no bullshit, I paid that and would have been glad to have made a final adjustment at the end of the year, 1 year I was hurt and off work with an operation on my arm, and 1 year each with the cartilage removal from my knees, but I still payed up front what my predicted wage would have been.
There were many in the tax revolt of the 70's and 80's.

Call it a tax revolt or what you like. Its still cheating for personal gain. Bludging on the honest taxpayers.

Some people might be in favour of all kinds of illegal activities like selling prohibited drugs etc. But that still doesn't give them the right to flaunt the law of the land for their own personal gain. Just because you dont agree with the law doesn't give you the right to break it.

But oh yea, I see that you were all in favour of the bankruptcy law when it meant you didn't have to pay back the tax money you cheated your country and fellow taxpayers out of.

Trying to make out you cheated on your taxes to the tune of a quarter of a million $s as some kind of political protest is utter BS and you know it. Its a case of just plain greed and selfishness. The fact that you either blew the tax money or hid it away in order to claim bankruptcy and avoid paying your debt to your country doesn't hide the fact that you are a cheat and a bludger.

Originally Posted by Panda

Call it a tax revolt or what you like. Its still cheating for personal gain. Bludging on the honest taxpayers.

For personal gain, Yes you got that right, thats why I worked long hours, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year without a day off for one period of 27 months straight.
I earned that money and I do have a right to say how it is being spent in a democratic society, and if you pay no attention to what I say then I will not hand over 65% of my gross pay to you.
Thats very simple ain't it.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Originally Posted by Panda

The thing is that the tax component of your income is not "your money".

Actually, I disagree with the concept you advance, but on a technicality -- the entirety of the money earned is 'my' money, but it is up to me to reduce my tax obligations as much as possible - this is possible under the current system, sometimes to near zero

Of course it is your option to minimize your tax obligation within the confines of the law. And anyone who doesn't do that is just throwing money away.

The argument you put up that the entirety of the money you earn is yours is rather simplistic. The fact is that the component of your income that is yours to keep and spend as you like is that which is left after you pay your tax obligation.
If you dont believe me then check with your tax department.

I think most of us feel angry when we see wealthy people paying little or no tax, however, that does not give us the right to lie and cheat on our own taxes. That would be to join the ranks of the people who we regard as cheats and liars.
The appropriate way to manage your outrage over perceived injustice in the tax system is to voice your concerns with your political representative. If he dont give you a reasonable explanation then dont vote for him. Thats the way its done in a civilized democratic society.

Using the perceived concept that rich people are not paying their fair share of tax as justification for cheating on your tax obligation is just a cop out for being a cheat and liar yourself. If you believe the tax laws are unjust then the place to voice your opinion is with your political representative and the ballot box.

Originally Posted by blackgang

Originally Posted by Panda

Call it a tax revolt or what you like. Its still cheating for personal gain. Bludging on the honest taxpayers.

For personal gain, Yes you got that right, thats why I worked long hours, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year without a day off for one period of 27 months straight.
I earned that money and I do have a right to say how it is being spent in a democratic society, and if you pay no attention to what I say then I will not hand over 65% of my gross pay to you.
Thats very simple ain't it.

You ain't the only one who has ever worked long hours in your life. You ain't some kind of a martyr who deserves more than anyone else. You know full well before you take on the overtime that its going to take you up into the higher tax brackets. A lot of people, including myself have worked a lot of overtime in their life and they take the double pay as a trade off for the extra tax without resorting to cheating on their tax. Dont try and give me that BS that you worked harder than anyone else so you deserve more. Cheating on your tax is nothing more than bludging on your workmates who work along side you and pay their fair share.

Originally Posted by Panda

If you believe the tax laws are unjust then the place to voice your opinion is with your political representative and the ballot box.

If you actually believe that then give me a puff off that thing before you throw it away..

Originally Posted by Panda

Cheating on your tax is nothing more than bludging on your workmates who work along side you and pay their fair share.

I didn't cheat and no one took up no slack because of me, I paid 10% of my wages and that is more than most working stiffs were paying at that time, the only one that didn't get their money was some silly asshole that the govt was going to give my money to, to take away the rewards of Overtime and the advantage you get from working that time and pay instead of 10% and pay 65% of the gross which I will not do and I went by all laws and still got to keep MY MONEY. so cry all you want to and feel sorry for yourself for never having made anything of yourself, see if I care.

Thats all for me so you go ahead and troll some more,, Bye now.

Originally Posted by blackgang

Originally Posted by Panda

If you believe the tax laws are unjust then the place to voice your opinion is with your political representative and the ballot box.

If you actually believe that then give me a puff off that thing before you throw it away..

Originally Posted by Panda

Cheating on your tax is nothing more than bludging on your workmates who work along side you and pay their fair share.

I didn't cheat and no one took up no slack because of me, I paid 10% of my wages and that is more than most working stiffs were paying at that time, the only one that didn't get their money was some silly asshole that the govt was going to give my money to, to take away the rewards of Overtime and the advantage you get from working that time and pay instead of 10% and pay 65% of the gross which I will not do and I went by all laws and still got to keep MY MONEY. so cry all you want to and feel sorry for yourself for never having made anything of yourself, see if I care.

Thats all for me so you go ahead and troll some more,, Bye now.

So you paid 10% instead of the 65% that you owed. And ripped off the system and fellow taxpayers for a quarter of a million $s. Oh yea, you were only doing on principle to protest against a tax system you believed was unfair. And you got away with it by playing a legal loophole by pleading bankruptcy after you either spent the loot or hid it somewhere. That makes you no better than the scum rich folks you were allegedly protesting about who were ripping off their fellow countrymen through legal loopholes and technical points of law. BTW, what happened to that 250K, did you blow the lot or are you still living on your ill gotten gains? Either way, by your own admission, you are a proven parasite on your country and your countrymen.

^ Whatever gave you that idea Jet? I actually work 10 hour days with a lot of overtime call outs at night. The good thing about it is I get a lot of down time where I am now and get to work from home for a lot of the time. I did the hard yards in the city years ago when I was younger and am quite enjoying the more laid back lifestyle I have found here in the bush now. I earn good money and I pay my fair share of tax.
I am saving for my retirement in a few years which will be funded with my own money and not a cent of fraudulently obtained unpaid taxes. I've paid my medicare levy since it was introduced back in the '70s and will receive "free" medical in my retirement years as I do now. Sometime down the line after I get to 65 I will be entitled to a "part" aged pension. Again something I have contributed to all my working life. There are many other benefits too that aged citizens of Australia are entitled to. Pharmaceutical benefits, rental assistance etc.. It all depends on your personal financial circumstances as to how much the government will subsidize you. Quite fair really. Taxes are like insurance Jet. You pay your fair share in the good times when you are young and fit and you reap the benefits when you need it. The joys of living in a socialist "Libbie" country. Its a pretty good life actually. I dont owe the system a cent and I feel pretty good about that. Though I do get upset when I see the right wing bludgers cheating the system and then lining up for their slice of the pie when they need it. Thankfully, with modern technology the loopholes for the tax cheats are closing and taxes have actually come down considerably in recent years as the honest tax payers have had to subsidize the tax cheat parasites to a lesser degree.

Originally Posted by Panda

The argument you put up that the entirety of the money you earn is yours is rather simplistic. The fact is that the component of your income that is yours to keep and spend as you like is that which is left after you pay your tax obligation.

That is my point -- precisely that it is my obligation to minimize my tax liability as much as possible, preferably to zero (which is also possible, or at least to near zero).

The idea is not to feign outrage over the rich paying next to no taxes, and then cheating, but rather to use the same methods -- this requires educating yourself, of course, which is something most of the self-processed 'tax rebels' never do, as it's hard to educate yourself while being 24/7 drunk.

The other lame excuse is "I've worked my ass off 24/7, and it's damn well my money" -- in fact, if you pride yourself on having worked so hard for your money, it's double your responsibility to educate and inform yourself on how to not just retain as much as possible, but also to invest it wisely -- lest you end up with nothing to show for it.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

it's double your responsibility to educate and inform yourself on how to not just retain as much as possible, but also to invest it wisely -- lest you end up with nothing to show for it.

It would habve been a front to have incorperated or some other thing as I was mostly a union construction hand, and the same goes for most Oseas employment, I paid my max SSA so am cool there and I get 2 union pensions and I do not live in the USA so I get no fereebies from them that I live off of as Pandy is so proud of doing.
I have money, I help out where I can as far as my family goes here, and I ask for nothing, I pay my own way in everything.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Originally Posted by Panda

The argument you put up that the entirety of the money you earn is yours is rather simplistic. The fact is that the component of your income that is yours to keep and spend as you like is that which is left after you pay your tax obligation.

That is my point -- precisely that it is my obligation to minimize my tax liability as much as possible, preferably to zero (which is also possible, or at least to near zero).

The idea is not to feign outrage over the rich paying next to no taxes, and then cheating, but rather to use the same methods -- this requires educating yourself, of course, which is something most of the self-processed 'tax rebels' never do, as it's hard to educate yourself while being 24/7 drunk.

The other lame excuse is "I've worked my ass off 24/7, and it's damn well my money" -- in fact, if you pride yourself on having worked so hard for your money, it's double your responsibility to educate and inform yourself on how to not just retain as much as possible, but also to invest it wisely -- lest you end up with nothing to show for it.

Entirely agree there. The tax laws are changing all the time to try and stay ahead of the "legal" cheats. So long as people take steps to minimize their tax in a legal and ethical manner I have no problem with it. The thing is that businesses have a lot of tax incentives that employees dont and some employee tax payers see that as unfair. But the bottom line is that the government wants the businesses to have more money so they can grow and employ more workers to pay tax.