Thread: under god

The Rev. George M. Docherty, the former pastor of the New York Avenue Presbyterian Church who delivered an influential sermon that led to the insertion of the phrase 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance in 1954, died Nov. 27 of a heart ailment at his home in Alexandria, Pa. He was 97.

On Feb. 7, 1954, with President Dwight D. Eisenhower sitting in Lincoln's pew, Rev. Docherty urged that the pledge to the flag be amended, saying, 'To omit the words 'under God' in the Pledge of Allegiance is to omit the definitive factor in the American way of life.'

Then as now, legal scholars questioned whether a reference to a deity in a patriotic pledge violated the First Amendment separation of church and state. In recent years, there have been several court challenges to the phrase.

i can't imagine how it could ever come to pass, but i would be really pleased if congress would act to correct this error in judgment. my guess is that it was an over-reaction to that era's boogeyman...the (gasp!) godless communists.



btw, the guy did have some positive traits..

During his 26 years as pastor, he became better known for his liberal social activism than for his quest to alter the Pledge of Allegiance. He promoted racial equality and led outreach efforts to feed and educate the city's hungry and poor. His church was often a staging point for civil rights and antiwar demonstrations, and the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. preached from its pulpit. Rev. Docherty was with King on the Edmund Pettus Bridge during the Bloody Sunday civil rights march in Selma, Ala., in 1965. Rev. Docherty often spoke out against the Vietnam War in his sermons, even when Robert S. McNamara -- defense secretary in the 1960s -- was present for services.

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anyway, what say you...does this sort of religious phrase belong in what is essentially an oath of loyalty to a country which is supposed to be partially founded on the separation of church and state? and keep in mind that this 'pledge' is recited everyday in tax funded public schools.

I don't quite see it that way, Rob.

If ya want to go to church and do god or buddha or allah stuff -- you can.
If ya don't want to, don't.
If ya don't want to say the pledge of allegiance, don't say it.
If ya want to be an atheist or agnostic or pray to witches and unicorns, have at it.
If ya want to send half your paycheck to your church, knock yourself out.
If ya want to go there clandestinely on Sunday only for free cookies and coffee, wearing your Black Sabbath T-shirt under your sweater, have a blast.
If ya want to delete the church channels on your cable box, it's only a matter of pressing a few buttons.

Religion is there if you want it. If you don't want it, like me, it's very easy to ignore.

Originally Posted by Texpat

If ya don't want to say the pledge of allegiance, don't say it.

That's a tough ask for a 10 year old. Peer pressure being what it is.

Wasn't there some (in)famous atheist lady that tested the use of God anywhere in gov several years ago. She lost if I remember!

If you're really that offended by it, ask the teacher to excuse your child to the restroom during the pledge.

News Flash: There's going to be a whole bunch of shit coming down the pike the little darling isn't going to want to do, but will have to.

Originally Posted by Texpat

I don't quite see it that way, Rob.

If ya want to go to church and do god or buddha or allah stuff -- you can.
If ya don't want to, don't.
If ya don't want to say the pledge of allegiance, don't say it.
If ya want to be an atheist or agnostic or pray to witches and unicorns, have at it.
If ya want to send half your paycheck to your church, knock yourself out.
If ya want to go there clandestinely on Sunday only for free cookies and coffee, wearing your Black Sabbath T-shirt under your sweater, have a blast.
If ya want to delete the church channels on your cable box, it's only a matter of pressing a few buttons.

Religion is there if you want it. If you don't want it, like me, it's very easy to ignore.

I'm certainly not knocking the freedom of choice in the U.S., that is how religion has become so popular in itself.

The relationship between state and religion is now far from the secular foundations of the U.S. and I would presume that an adherance to religious practice, wether the belief is real or not, goes hand in hand with acceptance in political circles.

God Bless America ........................

Originally Posted by Mid

God Bless America ........................

Got that right!

WTF? What's wrong with God? She's just the head of a nation's morality.
And what are people gonna solemnly swear on, their mothers' graves? PO, the God link helps keep many people moral and balanced, even if they believe in different ones.

Originally Posted by Bugs

All that being said it’s not something I care enough about to make a big deal out of.

Me too boy, I am not small minded enough to give a fuck one way or the other, am an athiest and I have spent as much money with "IN GOD WE TRUST" stamped on it as anyone else and it bothers me not one iopta when I do.

so you small minded one have right at here if it bothers you then don't spend any more money.

Originally Posted by Mid

God Bless America ........................

... Because no one else will


... And all others be damned

If ya want to go to church and do god or buddha or allah stuff -- you can.
If ya don't want to, don't.
If ya don't want to say the pledge of allegiance, don't say it.
If ya want to be an atheist or agnostic or pray to witches and unicorns, have at it.
If ya want to send half your paycheck to your church, knock yourself out.
If ya want to go there clandestinely on Sunday only for free cookies and coffee, wearing your Black Sabbath T-shirt under your sweater, have a blast.
If ya want to delete the church channels on your cable box, it's only a matter of pressing a few buttons.

All very noble and worthy sentiments. However in a nation where not supporting your Govt. in a patently unjust war which was based on lies and deceit gets you labelled 'unpatriotic', 'unAmerican' or - even worse - 'a commie' it all rings just a little bit hollow.

Good in theory, pity about the practise.

People everywhere rely on faith to get them through the day.
Others want nothing of it.

Sorry, Ant.
That's the way it is.
Continue trying to make it something else if you like.
You look kind of silly, though.

You never seem to open your mouth without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge.

Originally Posted by Texpat

Sorry, Ant.
That's the way it is.
Continue trying to make it something else if you like.
You look kind of silly, though.

You never seem to open your mouth without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge.

Your continuing inability to respond to anything without resort to personal abuse makes me think I've grossly over rated your intelligence.

So besmirch mine all you like, in the absence of any actual reasoned and rational rebuttal - which should be pretty easy given your claims - then it's all meaningless and you're the one that looks silly.

Originally Posted by Texpat

You look kind of silly, though. You never seem to open your mouth without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge.

How very true, but you also have to consider, He is a Lawyer ya know.

Originally Posted by Bugs

Huaser proposes that this is because a certain sense of what it right or good is hard-wired into humans - and not related to religion. __________________

Not all humans, unless something other than humans inhabit this country, as well as some others.

If you compare the "religiousness" of the US compared to all other countries in the world, I'd imagine it would come down somewhere in the middle.

Ant, a Kiwi in Thailand who has read an awful lot on America, desperately wants everyone to think all Americans are religious nutters.

Look at the representation of Americans on this forum, Ant. Seems pretty scattered out to me.

Originally Posted by blackgang

Originally Posted by Texpat

You look kind of silly, though. You never seem to open your mouth without subtracting from the sum of human knowledge.

How very true, but you also have to consider, He is a Lawyer ya know.

You're not really aiding Tex's case by agreeing with him, blackgang.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

If ya want to go to church and do god or buddha or allah stuff -- you can.
If ya don't want to, don't.
If ya don't want to say the pledge of allegiance, don't say it.
If ya want to be an atheist or agnostic or pray to witches and unicorns, have at it.
If ya want to send half your paycheck to your church, knock yourself out.
If ya want to go there clandestinely on Sunday only for free cookies and coffee, wearing your Black Sabbath T-shirt under your sweater, have a blast.
If ya want to delete the church channels on your cable box, it's only a matter of pressing a few buttons.

All very noble and worthy sentiments. However in a nation where not supporting your Govt. in a patently unjust war which was based on lies and deceit gets you labelled 'unpatriotic', 'unAmerican' or - even worse - 'a commie' it all rings just a little bit hollow.

Good in theory, pity about the practise.

What does support or lack thereof, or being labled unpatriotic or unAmerican because of said lack of support for the government or the war have anything to do with the belief or non-belief in god?

I know folks that support the government, but not the war - who believe in god, as well as some that don't.

I know folks that support the government and the war - who believe in god, as well as some that don't.

I know folks that don't support the government, nor the war - who believe in god, as well as some that don't.

I know one chap that does not support the government, but does support the war - both in Iraq and Afghanistan - he does not believe in god.

I don't know anyone that does not support the government, and does support the war - in Iraq or Afganistan, that does believe in god, but I'm sure there are some out there.

Where is the link to god?

Originally Posted by Texpat

Ant, a Kiwi in Thailand who has read an awful lot on America, desperately wants everyone to think all Americans are religious nutters.

Look at the representation of Americans on this forum, Ant. Seems pretty scattered out to me.

If that's the conclusion you've come to from my posts on this thread then I think you've entirely missed my point. You're most certainly misrepresenting it in any event.

^^ Bugs, don't try to second-guess Ant. He knows far more about Americans than you will ever hope to.

That sumbitch's got us pegged! It's his life ambition.

Originally Posted by blackgang

Originally Posted by Bugs

Huaser proposes that this is because a certain sense of what it right or good is hard-wired into humans - and not related to religion. __________________

Not all humans, unless something other than humans inhabit this country, as well as some others.

Indeed as with much of the things that are hard-wired into humans, there are always those folks who have wiring problems. And as with many things regardless of wiring one can be trained to do pretty much anything.

Tell someone again, and again, from the day they are born that they should have only one long term sexual partner and that will become natural to them. Regardless of how humans are wired.

Originally Posted by Bugs

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

If ya want to go to church and do god or buddha or allah stuff -- you can.
If ya don't want to, don't.
If ya don't want to say the pledge of allegiance, don't say it.
If ya want to be an atheist or agnostic or pray to witches and unicorns, have at it.
If ya want to send half your paycheck to your church, knock yourself out.
If ya want to go there clandestinely on Sunday only for free cookies and coffee, wearing your Black Sabbath T-shirt under your sweater, have a blast.
If ya want to delete the church channels on your cable box, it's only a matter of pressing a few buttons.

All very noble and worthy sentiments. However in a nation where not supporting your Govt. in a patently unjust war which was based on lies and deceit gets you labelled 'unpatriotic', 'unAmerican' or - even worse - 'a commie' it all rings just a little bit hollow.

Good in theory, pity about the practise.

What does support or lack thereof, or being labled unpatriotic or unAmerican because of said lack of support for the government or the war have anything to do with the belief or non-belief in god?

It has nothing to do with a belief or non-belief in God. It has everything to do with the fact that claiming something like one is free to not voice the pledge of allegiance, whilst completely true, is entirely different from the practise and reality of the matter.

Therefore the analogy to the Govt. and the war in Iraq's an apt one; those that didn't follow the 'party-line' were in effect shouted down and labelled with all manner of pejorative names even when it became increasingly apparent there was no justification. A phenomena that was even observable on here. So, again using that example, what do you think would happen to someone exercising their right to not voice the pledge of allegiance.

Originally Posted by Texpat

^^ Bugs, don't try to second-guess Ant. He knows far more about Americans than you will ever hope to.

That sumbitch's got us pegged! It's his life ambition.

Shhhh Tex, the grown-ups are talking. Name-calling and disengenuous little children should be seen, not heard.