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  1. #451
    I don't know barbaro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    It is a bit interesting that this pro life/ pro choice argument comes up on a thread about the GOP. This never was a political affiliation argument you know- it is only a function of the Republican courting of the religious right, which as I understand it was pretty much a tactical decision made by Karl Rove and cohorts. It was certainly a platform of the Bush administration.

    Traditionally, ones views on abortion were not a matter of political affiliation.
    Exaxtly.

    Most GOPers according to polls are "pro-choice."

    Ronald Reagan was pro-choice until he needed to change in the 1970s, as he was rising in the national GOP.

    George H. Bush, the same.

    The GOP "Pro-life/Anti-abortion" or "anti-choice" position is because of the need for the GOP to have the Christian right not only in the Republican tent but at the polls.

    (McCain wanted a moderate for GOP Vice-Pres in Lieberman or the Homeland Security head, Tom Ridge.)

    The Xtian right were loud and vociferous. They pounded their fists in opposition.

    Hence....Palin was chosen.
    ............

  2. #452
    Pronce. PH said so AGAIN!
    slackula's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon
    ^ Huh. I might agree, cause it's welfare low-lifes always wanting abortions.
    I thought you were supposed to castigate them for squirting out kids to get welfare? Now you are saying that welfare recipients are pro-choice?

  3. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon View Post
    ^ Huh. I might agree, cause it's welfare low-lifes always wanting abortions.
    How much money to you make a year jet? An indian drummer and a right wing puppet. I would like to understand why so many stupid and poor people buy into the fox news fallacy. So sad that you drive your own people further down..

  4. #454
    I don't know barbaro's Avatar
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    ^ I have wondered. Perhaps an inheritence.

  5. #455
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    She's still collecting enough soda cans and bottletops to make a return trip to Thailand, but it's been years...

  6. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    Catholics are anti abortion, and they were and are Democrat leaning, an example being Joe Biden.
    Don't forget the Kennedys! But, the Pope didn't like them much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milkman View Post
    ^ I have wondered. Perhaps an inheritence.
    555 Not yet.

  7. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by AntRobertson
    And why didn't you just say the "a" word?
    Suppose it was lost on you wasn't it? I will always fall somewhere short of articulate...

    I'm all for a woman having privacy about anything but killing people.... That's the problem with the abortion arguement... when is an embryo a person? Nobody thinks killing babies is good, almost everybody would agree on that. The question is, what makes a baby a baby?

    Some think that the mind must have experiences and an awareness of self before the person in possession of the mind is a person.. others think that the possession of a mind and DNA of the human variety qualifies somebody as a person...

    Is there a difference between 1st term abortions and 3rd term abortions? (I think so... to some extent)

    For the record: I don't understand how the code word, "privacy" came to mean abortion...

    Also for the record:
    What's easier to unload, a truck full of dead babies, or a truck full of bowling balls?

    -babies, you can use a pitchfork.

    What's funnier than a dead baby?
    -a dead baby in a clown costume

    Why do you unload a truck full of dead babies with a pitchfork?

    -so you can tell which ones were still alive

  8. #458
    Thailand Expat MrG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by theudonshawn
    For the record: I don't understand how the code word, "privacy" came to mean abortion...
    That's what the issue is all about. What could be more private than what is growing in a person's body. Suppose enough people thought that a baby was determined by it's DNA and told you you couldn't have an operation for testicular cancer because it would be killing a baby, or half a baby? Abortion is tragic and I don't necesarily support it, but I do believe people have a right to control their own body without the Government telling them they can't.
    By the way, it is, for the record, a fetus, not a baby person as the anti-abortion group likes to call it. If it was a baby, we would start counting it's age from conception, not birth (I think they do in Japan).

    Finally, a question. Do you support capital punishment? Most "pro-lifers" that I meet do. When I tell them that makes the Pro Death and Anti Choice they get pissed and deny it. But there's really no where for them to run.

  9. #459
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by theudonshawn
    For the record: I don't understand how the code word, "privacy" came to mean abortion...
    That's what the issue is all about. What could be more private than what is growing in a person's body. Suppose enough people thought that a baby was determined by it's DNA and told you you couldn't have an operation for testicular cancer because it would be killing a baby, or half a baby? Abortion is tragic and I don't necesarily support it, but I do believe people have a right to control their own body without the Government telling them they can't.
    By the way, it is, for the record, a fetus, not a baby person as the anti-abortion group likes to call it. If it was a baby, we would start counting it's age from conception, not birth (I think they do in Japan).

    Finally, a question. Do you support capital punishment? Most "pro-lifers" that I meet do. When I tell them that makes the Pro Death and Anti Choice they get pissed and deny it. But there's really no where for them to run.
    It's interesting, as you raised the issue. Why support abortion but be against the death penalty? No where to run?? Who is running and running away from what? The difference is clear. The death penalty serves a purpose - it is definitely a deterrent although the pro-abortionists would say otherwise. However, can you deny the fact that by killing an adult for committing a crime worthy of the death penalty he/she would be prevented from re-offending? The death penalty is the only undeniable deterrent.
    Regarding being anti-abortion, this is where we get down to whether the fetus is a life (an innocent life, hence the difference between the death penalty and abortion), or not a life. As I said earlier, the legal determination should be left up to the individual states.

  10. #460
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    A true conservative would say neither an individual state or the Federal government has jurisdiction to rule on such a personal decision- it is down to the individuals conscience and circumstances.

    He would also legitimately say that, because this is an elective procedure, government should play no role in funding or subsidising it either. It is a Private matter- and conservatives want to keep governments big nose out of what is none of their business.

  11. #461
    Thailand Expat MrG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by venturalaw
    The death penalty is the only undeniable deterrent.
    There is no evidence that the death penalty is a deterent. To say killing someone will prevent them from another committing another crime is not the point. So does locking them up. Killing people also stops them from J walking. The question is one of justice, and the ability of a society to deal with it's own worst criminals (killers) better than it's own worst criminals. Finally, treating the potential if not the fact that we kill innocent people as some kind of collatoral damage is just plain barbaric.

    If you really want to get into it, start another thread.

  12. #462
    Pronce. PH said so AGAIN!
    slackula's Avatar
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    Fortunately the 2009 GOP census is carefully worded to avoid anything that could possibly twist the meaning of the questions in anyway. Seriously.

    RNC | 2009 REPUBLICAN PARTY CENSUS DOCUMENT




    Republican National Committee
    2009 REPUBLICAN PARTY CENSUS DOCUMENT
    Instructions:

    1. Please select the answer below that most accurately reflects your view on each question. If you are unsure about a question, skip it and go to the next one.

    2. Upon completion of your Census, hit SUBMIT and your Census will be tabulated.

    3. Before logging out please take a moment to make a generous online gift to help our Party expand this CENSUS PROJECT to 6.2 million participants.

    4. Everyone’s Census answers will be tabulated. Those who donate may see Census results in real time following their contribution.

    Your answers represent the views of thousands of other Republicans living in your area. And your active membership in the new RNC will help us fight the Obama Democrats and recruit and train new Republican candidates nationwide.

    Registration
    These fields are required to verify your survey.

    First Name: Last Name: Address: City: State: Armed Forces Americas Armed Forces Canada/Europe/Middle East Alaska Alabama Armed Forces Pacific Arkansas American Samoa Arizona California Colorado Connecticut District of Columbia Delaware Florida Georgia Guam Hawaii Iowa Idaho Illinois Indiana Kansas Kentucky Louisiana Massachusetts Maryland Maine Michigan Minnesota Missouri Northern Mariana Islands Mississippi Montana North Carolina North Dakota Nebraska new Hampshire new Jersey new Mexico Nevada new York Ohio Oklahoma Oregon Pennsylvania Puerto Rico Palau Rhode Island South Carolina South Dakota Tennessee Texas Utah Virginia Virgin Islands Vermont Washington Wisconsin West Virginia Wyoming Zip:
    E-mail Address: * * Registration Number:
    (as seen on mail Survey)
    *
    Voting District Code: *



    ECONOMIC ISSUES
    1. Should we unite as a Party to oppose President Obama’s huge tax increase on the American people, particularly the new tax on dividends, capital gains and small businesses?
    Yes No Undecided

    2. Should the Democrats’ so-called Stimulus Bill with its wasteful pork-barrel spending be repealed?
    Yes No Undecided

    3. Should we oppose the federal government bailout of private companies?
    Yes No Undecided

    4. Should Republicans in Congress work to expose and eliminate new spending from Obama/Pelosi/Reid that amounts to welfare payments for Democrat interest groups?
    Yes No Undecided

    5. Do you oppose the Obama National Energy Tax, also known as “cap and trade,” which would skyrocket your utility bills and destroy jobs while having virtually no impact on the environment?
    Yes No Undecided


    DOMESTIC ISSUES
    1. Do you oppose the Obama-Pelosi health care takeover plan that would bring Washington bureaucrats between doctors and patients, ration medical treatment and deny critical care while skyrocketing the national debt?
    Yes No Undecided

    2. Would you support health care reforms that lower costs and improve care by bringing more competition and choice into the health insurance market while cracking down on predatory lawsuits against doctors and hospitals?
    Yes No Undecided

    3. Do you agree that we must stop illegal immigration?
    Yes No Undecided

    4. Do you oppose so-called “card-check” legislation, which eliminates secret ballot elections during unionization drives and makes it easier for labor bosses to organize?
    Yes No Undecided

    5. Should we do everything we can to stop Democrats from using the so-called “fairness doctrine” to shut down conservative talk radio shows?
    Yes No Undecided

    6. Should we resist Barack Obama’s proposal to spend billions of federal taxpayer dollars to pay “volunteers” to perform his chosen tasks?
    Yes No Undecided

    FAMILY AND SOCIAL ISSUES
    1. President Obama recently signed an executive order mandating taxpayer dollars be spent to pay for abortions in foreign countries. Should Republicans pass legislation to repeal this executive order?
    Yes No Undecided

    2. Should Republicans fight against judicial nominees who bring a personal, left-wing agenda on social issues to their jobs as judges?
    Yes No Undecided

    3. Do you want us to defend the partial-birth abortion ban from attacks by the Democrat majority?
    Yes No Undecided

    HOMELAND SECURITY ISSUES
    1. If Barack Obama tries to gut the USA PATRIOT Act and other important laws that promote the safety and security of all Americans, should Republicans in Congress fight back?
    Yes No Undecided

    2. Should we stop Democrat leaders from cutting funding from our intelligence agencies or bringing back Clinton-era restrictions on inter-agency communications?
    Yes No Undecided

    3. Do you support the use of air strikes against any country that offers safe harbor or aid to individuals or organizations committed to further attacks on America?
    Yes No Undecided

    4. Should we unite in support of full funding for border and port security when Barack Obama, Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid try to make cuts in these areas?
    Yes No Undecided

    5. Are you in favor of a space-based defense system to protect America from intercontinental ballistic missiles?
    Yes No Undecided

    DEFENSE ISSUES
    1. Should we stop any effort to have U.S. troops serve under United Nations’ commanders?
    Yes No Undecided

    2. Do you agree that our top military priority should be fighting terrorists?
    Yes No Undecided

    3. Should we fight military-cutting efforts in Congress, such as the proposal from liberal Barney Frank to slash the Pentagon budget by 25%?
    Yes No Undecided

    4. Should Republicans continue to support the State of Israel?
    Yes No Undecided

    5. Even though Barack Obama pledged to meet personally with the likes of Raul Castro, Hugo Chavez and Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, should Republicans continue to focus on supporting democratic movements in oppressive states like Cuba, Venezuela and Iran?
    Yes No Undecided


    REPUBLICAN PARTY
    1. Do you support the election of Republican candidates across the country and the rebuilding of our majorities over the next 10 years?
    Yes No Undecided

    2. a. Did you vote in the year 2004? YesNo b. Did you vote in the year 2006? YesNo c. Did you vote in the year 2008? YesNo



    Paid for by the Republican National Committee.
    310 First Street S.E. Washington, DC 20003
    Not authorized by any candidate or candidate's committee.
    © 2009 Republican National Committee



    What is the point of releasing something like that? They won't learn anything from the results and it reads like a parody from The Onion.

    Are they doing it so they can say "OMG! According to the latest figures, 100% of people we polled hate Obama's plans.".

    Weird.
    bibo ergo sum
    If you hear the thunder be happy - the lightening missed.
    This time.

  13. #463
    Thailand Expat raycarey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by venturalaw
    The death penalty is the only undeniable deterrent.
    There is no evidence that the death penalty is a deterent.
    no credible evidence whatsoever.

    the only thing that's undeniable, is that he's fabricating "facts".

  14. #464
    Pronce. PH said so AGAIN!
    slackula's Avatar
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    Oh, and by the way the freepers hated the survey. Too liberal.

    2009 Survey of the Republican Party from Michael Steele

  15. #465
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by venturalaw
    The death penalty is the only undeniable deterrent.
    There is no evidence that the death penalty is a deterent. To say killing someone will prevent them from another committing another crime is not the point. So does locking them up. Killing people also stops them from J walking. The question is one of justice, and the ability of a society to deal with it's own worst criminals (killers) better than it's own worst criminals. Finally, treating the potential if not the fact that we kill innocent people as some kind of collatoral damage is just plain barbaric.

    If you really want to get into it, start another thread.
    Of course killing them would prevent them from committing another crime, hence the deterrent.
    Perhaps you would feel differently if, after being given a life without the possibility of parole, a murderer/rapist of children, so sentenced, was let out of prison, or escaped, and committed yet another attrosity - this time against one of your family members. Think about it.
    Since you feel entitled to dictate the issues to be discussed, I will go no further.

  16. #466
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    Quote Originally Posted by raycarey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by venturalaw
    The death penalty is the only undeniable deterrent.
    There is no evidence that the death penalty is a deterent.
    no credible evidence whatsoever.

    the only thing that's undeniable, is that he's fabricating "facts".
    You really don't get it? If a person commits a felony punishable by death, and then is put to death, is he capable of re-offending? NO. Hence, the deterrent. Where is the fabrication? Or is it your position that no one who was spared the death penalty has ever re-offended?

  17. #467
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    What he is saying is that the Death penalty does not reduce the incidence of crime- so it is not an effective deterrent.

    The fact that a dead man 'won't do it again' is a given. Unfortunately, plenty of others will. So whatever the answer is to reducing crime, it isn't the death penalty.

    Not something I feel strongly about frankly, either way- except when an innocent man gets executed.

  18. #468
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    If a person commits a felony punishable by death, and then is put to death, is he capable of re-offending? NO. Hence, the deterrent.
    I'm sorry but

  19. #469
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    Quote Originally Posted by longway View Post
    If a person commits a felony punishable by death, and then is put to death, is he capable of re-offending? NO. Hence, the deterrent.
    I'm sorry but
    Yes, it's apparent that you are. Very sorry.

  20. #470
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabang View Post
    What he is saying is that the Death penalty does not reduce the incidence of crime- so it is not an effective deterrent.

    The fact that a dead man 'won't do it again' is a given. Unfortunately, plenty of others will. So whatever the answer is to reducing crime, it isn't the death penalty.

    Not something I feel strongly about frankly, either way- except when an innocent man gets executed.
    The reason why it has ceased being a deterrent to those who have yet to offend, is because the death penalty is not definite and certain, and the likelyhood of it being carried out is very slim. But as I said, one less guilty offender is one less - and perhaps more than one life spared should he/she escape or be set free. It's happened before, and it can happen again.
    I too, frankly, do not feel strongly about the death penalty. However, I do not relish the idea of supporting someone for the rest of his/her life after he/she has committed a heinous offense.

  21. #471
    Thailand Expat raycarey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by venturalaw View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by raycarey View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by MrG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by venturalaw
    The death penalty is the only undeniable deterrent.
    There is no evidence that the death penalty is a deterent.
    no credible evidence whatsoever.

    the only thing that's undeniable, is that he's fabricating "facts".
    You really don't get it? If a person commits a felony punishable by death, and then is put to death, is he capable of re-offending? NO. Hence, the deterrent. Where is the fabrication?
    you've got to be joking.

    right?

    somebody tell me he's joking.

  22. #472
    Thailand Expat MrG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by venturalaw
    Of course killing them would prevent them from committing another crime, hence the deterrent.
    I go on to say that it's a question of justice. If there is no deterrent to killing (observe the hundreds of people on death row) why continue. It's a moral question. The idea that we can't lock people up in a maximum security prison so they can't escape is absurd. As for them killing somebody I love, that's an emotional argument and has nothing to do with the issue.
    Quote Originally Posted by venturalaw
    Since you feel entitled to dictate the issues to be discussed, I will go no further.
    Chicken.

  23. #473
    Thailand Expat MrG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by venturalaw
    I do not relish the idea of supporting someone for the rest of his/her life after he/she has committed a heinous offense.
    Actually, a recent news item reported that some states are considering abolishing the death penalty because it is too expensive.

  24. #474
    I'm in Jail
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    Quote Originally Posted by MrG View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by venturalaw
    Of course killing them would prevent them from committing another crime, hence the deterrent.
    I go on to say that it's a question of justice. If there is no deterrent to killing (observe the hundreds of people on death row) why continue. It's a moral question. The idea that we can't lock people up in a maximum security prison so they can't escape is absurd. As for them killing somebody I love, that's an emotional argument and has nothing to do with the issue.
    Having them distanced from you out of circulation doesn't mean they can no longer pursue their sociopath ways. What's to keep them from preying on people while in prison? Society has an obligation to convicted criminals as well as free individuals. Incarcerated criminals do not cease being citizens entitled to protection.

  25. #475
    Thailand Expat MrG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by attaboy
    Incarcerated criminals do not cease being citizens entitled to protection.
    Agreed. So what's the point?

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