Ukraine war mega thread

[Norton]

Why don't you chickenhawks go there and fight instead of "donating" money ?

May well come to that if history, as it often is, repeated.
World wars start with 2 nation war's and evolve into multination conflicts with all the ugliness they entail.
They end when one side no longer has the will or the means to continue war. The Russia/UkraIne war will not end soon. Years more imo.

The US and all the others supporting the Ukraine for now have chosen not to commit combat troops to fight Russia. Neither have the nations supporting Russia to continue war.

Just the way it is and always will be until we as a species conclude killing each other is the surest way to lead to our extinction.

Bit of an early ramble but ok as is the norm in the DH.

[helge]

Just the way it is and always will be until we as a species conclude killing each other is the surest way to lead to our extinction.

Blind faith in the leaders seems to be the problem

[bsnub]

Blind faith in the leaders seems to be the problem

So take pootins cock out of your mouth.

[helge]

moving forward I am just going to ignore your idiotic posts.

Wasn't "idiotic" then ?

[Hugh Cow]

The problem is what happens if Trump gets in and cuts aid to Ukraine. Apart from the problems that would create. It would be a diplomatic disaster for the U.S. and its' credibility would lie in ruins.

[bsnub]

Wasn't "idiotic" then ?

Everything you post is idiotic. You are a dimwitted buffoon.

The problem is what happens if Trump gets in and cuts aid to Ukraine.

He will not be elected.

[david44]

@lorenzo_tondoThu 31 Aug 2023 13.13 BSTWhenever Nello Scavo returns from Ukraine, he is overcome with frustration. As a war correspondent for the Italian national newspaper Avvenire, he knows the first question people will ask him is: “Is it really as bad as they say?”
“Sometimes I think that only if I come back badly injured will people start taking me seriously,” he told the Guardian. “It’s as if they don’t believe that Russia is massacring civilians. The problem is that Vladimir Putin has always enjoyed wide sympathy in Italian politics and public opinion, with the Kremlin always enjoying effective propaganda here.”

Although Italy’s far-right government is one of Ukraine’s staunchest European supporters, Russian propaganda and disinformation permeates Italian media – something researchers attribute to politics and historical anti-Atlanticism – with openly pro-Russian guests invited on the country’s most popular talkshows. A survey released by Ipsos in April revealed that almost 50% of Italians prefer not to take sides in the conflict.
Matteo Pugliese, an Italian security and terrorism researcher at the University of Barcelona has tracked the procession of Russian government officials, ideologues and media personalities hosted by Italian TV networks since the Russian invasion. They include the Russian foreign minister, Sergei Lavrov, and his spokesperson, Maria Zakharova; the ultranationalist Russian ideologue Alexander Dugin; Olga Belova, a journalist at Russia 24, an outlet that denied the Bucha massacre; and Yulia Vityazeva, a journalist at NewsFront – based in Russia-occupied Crimea and operated by the FSB – who, in a Telegram post, wished a bomb would strike the Eurovision song contest in Turin after Ukraine’s victory.



Nello Scavo: ‘The problem is that Vladimir Putin has always enjoyed wide sympathy in Italian politics and public opinion’“Compared to other western European countries, Italy gave disproportionate exposure to Russian propaganda, in my opinion simply because TV producers wanted to increase their share of certain shows with heated debates,” Pugliese said.
Pugliese noted the most Russian propagandists, 12, were hosted by Rete4, a channel from Mediaset, owned by Silvio Berlusconi, an old friend of Putin who, a few months before he died, claimed that the Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelenskiy, “provoked” Russia’s invasion. Berlusconi, who served as prime minister three times, nurtured close relations with the Russian president, praising his leadership and helping to forge energy deals that some blame for Italy’s current dependence on Russian gas.
“In Italy, rightwing parties especially have maintained good relations with Putin,” Scavo said. “Not only Berlusconi, but even current deputy PM Matteo Salvini, who used to wear a T-shirt featuring Putin’s face.”
Italy’s parliamentary committee for security, Copasir, last year launched an investigation amid widespread concern about Kremlin-linked Russian commentators appearing on Italian news channels, as several Ukrainian journalists refused to accept invitations to Italian TV shows.



Photographer says Italian artist used daughter’s picture in pro-Russia mural


Read more




In some cases the guests on Italian TV are not Russian propagandists, but Italian commentators who seem to view the war as the result of western provocation. One regularly invited to La7 and Rai, is Alessandro Orsini, professor of the sociology of terrorism and political violence at Luiss university in Rome. Orsini has publicly said that ”.
“It’s not pacifism to suggest surrender as a solution,” said Arianna Ciccone, founder of Valigia Blu, an Italian independent factchecking website, and co-founder of the International Journalism Festival.
“These people have always been historically anti-Nato. They hypocritically hide their anti-Americanism behind a ‘mask’ of pacifism. In some cases this results in genuine anti-Ukrainian sentiment. We’ve often had well-known journalists and philosophers on TV expressing doubts about Bucha and Mariupol. Not even with the mountain of evidence have they had the courage to admit the truth. How can they be pacifists?”



Last year, an independent study by the Institute for Strategic Dialogue (ISD) revealed Italy had the most shared posts on social media casting doubt about Russian war crimes perpetrated in Bucha.
Italian TV presenters to host alleged Russian propagandists or commentators with “different views” on the war as part of a duty to give voice to both sides of the conflict. “In doing so, however, they do not seem to care that those defending the Russian invasion often spread disinformation and thus help to destabilise viewers with baseless claims,” Ciccone added.
One glaring example is Moscow’s claim – dismissed by the UN, and used as a justification for its full-scale invasion in 2022 – that Ukrainian military action in the Donbas conflict amounted to genocide. Dozens of Italians joined Russian proxies in Donbas in the years after 2014 to fight against Kyiv.
The majority of them are rightwing extremists attracted by Russian ultranationalism, but their ranks also count among them men belonging to the extreme left. In part this was a legacy of the postwar strength of the Italian Communist party, which peaked at 34.4% share of the vote in 1976 and backed what was seen as the resistance of communist countries against American imperialism. This vision, in part, still animates supporters of the Italian extreme left who see Russia as a bulwark against the US, and also believe Putin’s claims about “Ukrainian Nazis”. To mark Victory Day in 2022, a holiday that commemorates the Soviet victory over Nazi Germany, the Communist party of Zagarolo, Rome, released a series of posters featuring the letter Z used by the Russian government as a pro-war motif. The organisers of the event dismissed critics, saying it “was not a provocation”.


According to a Pew Research Center survey released in July, Italy is among the countries in the EU where people have the lowest confidence in Zelenskiy. According to the European Council on Foreign Relations, Italians were the most sympathetic to Russia of member states polled, with 27% blaming Ukraine and the US for the war.
“The result of all this is a great confusion in Italian public opinion, which struggles over who to blame for the war, blaming equally Russia and Ukraine,” said Pugliese. “This is certainly a success for Kremlin propaganda.”

[Norton]

American imperialism

Yes, no matter who does what to who blame the great Satan for near everything since the end of WW2. Tis the go to scape goat for those that need to justify the actions of dictatorships worldwide.

No matter. Pile it on. The great satan has broad shoulders.

[bsnub]

American imperialism

Those two words are at the heart of all ruzzian propaganda that these vatniks swallow.

Yes, no matter who does what to who blame the great Satan for near everything since the end of WW2.

That is exactly how the kremlin programs a useful idiot's brain. They are so predictable, you can almost always predict what they are going to say.

[bsnub]

You showed a CV-90 training but difficult to say when. These are all with the 21st brigade and they are on the front line defending in the NE region.

Here is further proof that there are brigades in reserve. The video I posted was of the 93rd Mechanized Brigade who are training in the rear...

The Swedish CV-90 Might Be Ukraine’s Best Fighting Vehicle. It Seems Another Brigade Is Getting Copies.

One of the Ukrainian army’s best heavy brigades apparently is getting one of the Ukrainian army’s best infantry fighting vehicles: the Swedish-made BAE Systems Hägglunds CV-90. A video that circulated online this week depicts soldiers from the army’s 93rd Mechanized Brigade training with the 37-ton, tracked IFV at a training facility in the Ukrainian rear.

The pairing makes sense. The 93rd is one of the army’s most experienced brigades and should make good use of the Swedish vehicle. The CV-90 boasts excellent day-night optics, a powerful 40-millimeter cannon and thick armor. Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky described the IFV as “robust.”

Despite apparently lending some of its troops to Ukraine’s southern command in order to bolster the command’s initial counterattacks along the Mokri Yaly River Valley in early June, the 93rd usually fights under the eastern command.

That’s the same command that oversees the army’s new 21st Mechanized Brigade, the “Swedish brigade” that was the first to ride the CV-90s into battle back in July. It’s more efficient, logistically speaking, for the Ukrainian army to concentrate similar vehicles in the same sectors of the 600-mile front line.

What’s odd is that Stockholm in January announced it would donate to Ukraine only around 50 CV90s. The Russians already have damaged two of the nine-person IFVs and captured one. The damaged CV-90s should return to the front following repairs, but all the same: 49 IFVs isn’t a lot of IFVs when you’re splitting them between two brigades.

A Ukrainian brigade typically has four front-line battalions, each with at least 30 tanks or IFVs. It’s possible the 21st and 93rd are deploying understrength battalions, each with just a couple of dozen CV-90s.

It also is possible Sweden quietly sent Ukraine more than 50 CV90s. It’s worth noting that the Swedish government isn’t like the U.S. government: it doesn’t always disclose all the details of major arms-transfers.

When Sweden gifted Ukraine 50 CV-90s, 10 Strv 122 tanks and eight Archer howitzers—gifts it publically announced—it also gave Ukraine at least one Bgbv 90 armored recovery vehicle, but never announced it. We found out about the Bgbv 90 transfer because one of the vehicles appeared in a photo from the front in July.

Sweden has CV-90s to spare. It’s got more than 500 of the IFVs in its inventory and additional vehicles in production. Earlier this month, Stockholm and Kyiv also inked a deal for joint production of CV-90s in Ukrainian factories.

It might be years before those factories are ready, but it’s possible Sweden is fronting additional CV-90s, on top of the initial 50 or so, as a sort of advance against future joint production.

Every CV-90 makes a difference. While Ukrainian brigades are attacking in the south and southeast, they’re defending in the northeast where the 21st Brigade is—and where the 93rd is likely to redeploy once it completes its CV-90 training.

This defensive campaign aims to defeat a powerful Russian countercounteroffensive targeting Ukrainian settlements west of occupied Kreminna. So far, it’s working. The Russians have much less ground in the northeast than the Ukrainians have gained in the south. All that Swedish hardware surely is a factor in this successful defense.


Another Brigade Is Getting Ukraine’s Best Fighting Vehicle

[helge]

Yes, no matter who does what to who blame the great Satan for near everything since the end of WW2. Tis the go to scape goat for those that need to justify the actions of dictatorships worldwide.

No matter. Pile it on. The great satan has broad shoulders.

Yes
No need to have a look at the history of the countries south of the US border.

Poverty, Coups, Interventions, Deathpatrols, Torture Dungeons in most of those countries.

Helped along by USA, its imperialism and broad shoulders.

But Norton finds it funny.

Probably out of his advanced age and/ or ignorance

"Just a scapegoat"

[Norton]

But Norton finds it funny.

Probably out of his advanced age and/ or ignorance

Or probably none of the above.

[OhOh]

They are starting a new mobilization effort in the east of Ukraine.

Mainly Russian supporters? Ethnic cleansing?

[OhOh]

May well come to that if history, as it often is, repeated.

Three Yanks discuss just that scenario:

It would be a diplomatic disaster for the U.S. and its' credibility would lie in ruins.

It would be?

The Chines diplomats, in Alaska, humiliated the Yanky "diplomats.

That interaction is illustrated when they have attempted, and are failing, with it's current peers.

Yanks diplomatic actions are just this, obey your master.

Or we will bomb your country and steal your assets. The politicians are dependent on the MIC for their re-election funds.

[bsnub]

This is a thread about the Ukraine war, you fucking imbecile. Post your spam elsewhere.

[Troy]

^^ sbubbies post...interesting report although 21st Brigade were reported as being equipped with all 50. It suggests that more were sent but I haven't found verification of this.

The 93rd were defending Bakhmut and rotated out with classified losses. I don't know exactly when but they are presumably being reequipped and replacements for losses. I don't think they are a trained operational unit for what I would consider a reserve force just yet. Ot will take time before they are back to operational readiness.

[bsnub]

The 93rd were defending Bakhmut and rotated out with classified losses.

Firstly, all Ukrainian losses are classified, secondly the rotation was routine.

I don't know exactly when but they are presumably being reequipped and replacements for losses.

They rotated out of combat two months ago.

I don't think they are a trained operational unit for what I would consider a reserve force just yet.

You are dead wrong here. The 93rd is one of Ukraine's most experienced and salty heavy brigades.

It suggests that more were sent but I haven't found verification of this.

I think it is only a matter of time before it will be revealed that Sweden sent another batch. They have 500 CV90s, and it was announced that the CV90 will be built in Ukraine.

That said, you are not taking into account the brigade that is about to receive the M1A1 in the next two weeks. You seem intent to push your narrative that Ukraine is over committed. I think that the next two weeks will be very interesting.



Some footage of what would be a very healthy 93rd training in the rear...

https://twitter.com/DavidWi07586530/...24166912459108
https://twitter.com/front_ukrainian/...00901310894148

[Bob Mason]

The problem is what happens if Trump gets in and cuts aid to Ukraine. Apart from the problems that would create. It would be a diplomatic disaster for the U.S. and its' credibility would lie in ruins.

The U.S lost all credibility when they elected Trump.

[david44]

Hegemonic powers build empirs, how Americans think they are any better than the Brits French Habsburgs

From P Rico to Al Tanf, imagine Syrian forces on the border?
This does not excuse invasions of Ossetia. Ukraine and no doubt Taiwa, the black Irish limited their ambitions to Kilburn TD and Boston due to lack of bus fare.

What is
USA doing in Guantanamo same as the Spanish imperialists, in Chagos Islands where the ethnically cleansed the natives no better than the redcoats, of course the treatment of native Americans is often ignored. If only Puckernuntas had chewed John Smith and instead of last of the Mohicans it had been last of the English

[helge]

Agree.....I think

[helge]

Or probably none of the above.

I hope so

Or was the "broad shoulders" meant as a "shrug of the shoulders".

Would be the logic approach to take, when probably being the poster on TD with the most US elections under his belt.

Each and every time voting for and approving a policy meant to exploit and suppress the whole wide effing world.

When you claim your right to be heard, entering the voting booth, it comes with a side dish.

Responsebility !

But shrug away. It's in your name too.


IF you have the shoulders for it, by all means bear it, but it still isn't funny.....

[helge]

You seem intent to push your narrative that Ukraine is over committed.

Hmm

Troy has the same "hopes" for the outcome, as you have for this conflict, but might be less ..optimistic.

He is still the most levelheaded poster on this thread

[Troy]

That said, you are not taking into account the brigade that is about to receive the M1A1 in the next two weeks.

According to ISW, Sept 1st:

Politico confirmed that Ukraine will receive the first 10 of the 31 promised refurbished US Abrams tanks by mid-September following refurbishment in Germany, citing a US Department of Defense official and another source.[25] The US Army Europe and Africa Spokesperson Colonel Martin O’Donnell stated that the US remains committed to delivering the 31 Abrams during an unspecified timeframe in the fall.[26] O’Donnell stated that 200 Ukrainian servicemen recently completed one of the final phases of Abrams training. Ukraine is unlikely to deploy the initial Abrams tanks (two platoons) until the entire brigade set is ready for operations.

So it will be a while before that brigade becomes part of an operational reserve.

You are dead wrong here. The 93rd is one of Ukraine's most experienced and salty heavy brigades.

I said the Brigade had taken unspecified losses during its defence of Bakhmut. Since this battle was quite brutal, I am assuming those losses are going to have been substantial and the brigade will need to be resupplied with both troops and equipment. History shows that the main losses are of experienced and brave men during battle. I am saying that I don't believe it is fully combat operational at the moment for deployment in the current counteroffensive. Of course that depends on whether the offensive continues into the winter.

[bsnub]

So it will be a while before that brigade becomes part of an operational reserve.

I read that today. Very disappointing and completely unacceptable. The US could have has 200 or more M1's in country by now if it chose to do so. This slow walking of equipment is insanely frustrating and inexcusable.

I am saying that I don't believe it is fully combat operational at the moment for deployment in the current counteroffensive.

Time will tell as to who is right. The footage of them training would indicate otherwise.

[helge]

The ukranian foreign minister tells critics of the slow counteroffensive to shut up and go fight themselves.

Fair comment in my opinion