Ukraine war mega thread

[Norton]

Sure. But once the GOP has a majority and more than 50% of those are MAGA/Trump minions they control the agenda and block the legislative process by not putting laws on the agenda when they have a clear majority. If there is one thing the MAGA crowd is good at it is obstruction of government processes. But with the budget for Ukraine passed they can achieve little in 2023.

Very good point but will the number of MAGA folks be enough to kill the bill by the time the new session begins? Things change rapidly but atm I don't think so. Zelenskyy's speech to the "American people" was proof he knew if he could get support of MAGA constituents the bill would pass.

[sabang]

Well David Stockman pulls no punches.





The spectacle in the US Capitol Building last night was downright retch-worthy. And we are not actually referring to the detestable little warmongering clown who preened at the podium in a sweatshirt and cargo pants, offering endless lies and hideously false promises about why American taxpayers and consumers are being bled to death in a pointless and necessary war.

No, we are referring to the pathetic gaggle of Representatives and Senators who applauded relentlessly and uproariously in response to the casuistry of the tinny poseur who stood before them, albeit one who should have never been granted that august platform in the first place.

After all, the mountebank who leads the rapidly decaying remnant of a nation that was never built to last anyway has been able to bring the world to the brink of economic catastrophe and even nuclear war for one reason alone: Namely, because the bipartisan duopoly on Capitol Hill has shoveled gargantuan sums of money into Ukraine and Washington’s proxy war on Russia with mindless negligence.

And on that score the numbers tell you all you need to know. To date, Washington has authorized $65 billion of economic and military aid, with other NATO nation’s throwing-in $32 billion additional. On top of that, the pending Omnibus Abomination will authorize $45 billion more, which Zelensky has already implied is not nearly enough.

Still, that’s $142 billion and counting, which in turn has no possibility of enabling the Ukrainian victory that Zelensky promised. And that’s also 91% of Ukraine’s 2020 prewar GDP of $156 billion, and an order of magnitude more than the under $100 billion GDP that is left before Russia’s impending winter offensive finishes it off completely.

Stated differently, these war-besotted fools are enabling the absolute destruction of the cities, towns, villages, countryside and economy of what was the world’s 30th largest polity, even as its soldiers and citizens on both sides of the front lines are being slaughtered in their hundreds of thousands.

Yet contrary to Zelensky’s deceitful rhetoric there is nothing at stake of importance to either humanity or the security of the "free world" or most especially the safety and liberty of the American homeland. Absolutely nothing at all – -and that includes all of the War Party’s cant, robotically repeated by Zelensky last night, about the rule of law, the sovereignty of borders and the freedom of the peoples of Ukraine and their neighbors.

As we have repeatedly documented, this is not a Russian invasion but a civil war in the "borderlands" territory (i.e. "Ukraine" in Russian) that prior to the communist tyranny of the Soviet Union was always a vassal and sometimes integral part of greater Russia. The present civil war, in fact, was instigated in 2014 by the illegitimate government installed in Kiev after Washington’s coup d’ tat against the duly elected and Russian-friendly president.

This Washington managed "regime change", in turn, set the regions of the artificial state of Ukraine against each other based on long-standing differences of language, religion, ethnicity and economics, among others. And when the Russian speaking populations of Crimea, the Donbas and the Black Sea coastal areas sought separation owing to fears of repression by the Ukrainian nationalist and neo-Nazi politicians who took control of the government in Kiev, the latter brought the bloody violence of the Ukrainian Armed Forces, including the overtly neo-Nazi Azov Brigade, down upon them.

That is to say, the Kiev instigated civil war against the Russian speaking populations of the east and south had been raging for eight years before Putin finally responded to their pleas for overt military assistance; and also after upwards of 14,000 separatist military and civilian personal had been killed by Kiev’s violent onslaught against what was purported to be its own population.

And so on- https://original.antiwar.com/David_S...rtition-begin/

[Buckaroo Banzai]

I'm sure everyone would be fascinated by your proof of how Ukraine 'invited' to be invaded.

You're a nice guy but this is the most stupid fucking 'point' made about this war.

That would be beating a dead horse IMO,. I said all I care to say about the subject early in this thread, to revisit it would IMO be beating a dead horse.
but
"Since 2014, the United States has committed more than $20.3 billion in security assistance to Ukraine and approximately $17.6 billion since the beginning of Russia's unprovoked and brutal invasion on February 24.Oct 14, 2022"

so if the above is correct, putting all the other NATO issues aside, pre-invasion the US had send to Ukraine about 3 billion dollars in security assistance.
Do you think the above had gone unnoticed by Russia?
In the US we have the following proverb "you mess with the bull , you get the horns "

[OhOh]

Originally Posted by bsnub (Russia launches Ukraine invasion)
Ukrainian President Zelensky ADDRESSES U.S. Congress in HISTORIC Speech




"Hillary Clinton compared Zelensky's speech to Churchill's.


In 1961, US Vice President Lyndon B. Johnson called South Vietnamese President Ngo Dinh-Diem an Asian Winston Churchill.


He was also brought to the United States on a military plane.


Ngo Dinh-Diem was deposed and killed during the 1963 coup..."

Coincidence?

[bsnub]

Well David Stockman pulls no punches.

So you are getting utterly trounced in the thread and attempt to ignore it and post more shit from your propaganda site.

[bsnub]

Which one is Sabang? I think he is both D and E.

[Norton]

Well David Stockman pulls no punches.

He can flail away til he has a cardiac arrest but matters fuck all. He gets no vote. He lost long ago.

[bsnub]

But he also is B as well.

[sabang]

Stop lying snubski- you were totally owned and caught out barefaced lying, and you've been a sulky little baby ever since. As any intelligent reader can see for themselves by scrolling back a few pages, and paying particular attention to what Generals Wesley Clark and Mark Milley said- and your outrageous lie that Wesley Clark was 'talking about the Russians' when he described Bakhmut as a meat grinder for the Ukrainians- why I even provided a Youtube of the actual CNN interview. And of course, the USA's most senior military officer, Mark Milley, said that it was unlikely that Ukraine could win this war by military means.

Didn't he? or are you gonna try lying again?

[bsnub]

You really are a moron. You have been utterly destroyed today. Just look for yourself. Do you agree that you fit D, E and B of the image above? After further analysis, you have fit into all those categories at one point.

Yep, $43 billion for them, on top of that Biden can use the presidential drawdown authority. Sabang is really proving to be utterly clueless today.

First, he gets the weather in Ukraine wrong. Then he falsely claimed that Russia has "reserves" and now this.

The hits keep on coming.

You can run but you can not hide.

[bsnub]

I must be- the ground has frozen over in Ukraine, and still no sign of this Winter offensive you keep telling us about.

7am in Kyiv, current temperature is 1c with a daytime high of 4c.
In Melitopol current temp is 3c with a high of 6c.

As usual, you have no idea what you are talking about.

Currently 1 degree in Bakhmut and 2 degrees in Melitopol. The videos from the battlefield today show muddy ground. As usual, you need better sources.

a very odd point of view, unhealthy and downright idiotic.

Seems to be a theme with him.

Interesting, considering that when Congress reconvenes in mid-January, it will be Republican controlled. I think the days of the unlimited cheque book are over-

Sure. But once the GOP has a majority and more than 50% of those are MAGA/Trump minions they control the agenda and block the legislative process by not putting laws on the agenda when they have a clear majority. If there is one thing the MAGA crowd is good at it is obstruction of government processes. But with the budget for Ukraine passed they can achieve little in 2023.

Yep, $43 billion for them, on top of that Biden can use the presidential drawdown authority. Sabang is really proving to be utterly clueless today.

First, he gets the weather in Ukraine wrong. Then he falsely claimed that Russia has "reserves" and now this.

The hits keep on coming.

[Norton]

Didn't he? or are you gonna try lying again?

Snubs say you got it wrong as hard as it might be for you so we stop this endless who got it wrong nonsense.

[sabang]

Who the moron is was totally established a few days ago, and told to you in no uncertain terms by several posters. A liar too, like your mentor Zelensky. Anyway, now you and ilk have succeeded in getting this thread Doghoused- which means it will be eliminated, erased from the TD annals soon enough. So spout what bullshit you want, but the TD intelligentsia has seen right through ya now- and that has nothing to do with their views on the Ukraine war.

[Norton]

TD intelligentsia

We have these?

[bsnub]

Snubs say you got it wrong as hard as it might be for you so we stop this endless who got it wrong nonsense.

I already did. You two seem to rehash this over and over. It is such an irrelevant thing anyway. Sabang has been caught outright lying in this thread countless times, and he is just trying to avoid the fact that he is getting utterly fucking destroyed today. Sabang is desperate.

A liar too

Your hypocrisy boils over once again. Since you post nothing but fake news, propaganda and outright lies constantly, so calling anyone else a lair is utterly laughable. You are desperate to deflect attention away from the fact that you are getting smashed today.

[sabang]

So General Wesley Clark and Mark Milley are Liars now? You like looking stoopid, don't ya. Lets try again, this time an answer would be appreciated- and might just regain you an ounce of credibility, and personal integrity before this Forum:-

Basic integrity test for NAFO junior recruits

Q1- In a recent interview with CNN, did General Wesley Clark, former Supreme Allied Commander of NATO, say the following:-


"It also serves as a sort of killing ground, for grinding up the Ukrainian forces"

"He's got a place where the Ukrainians do have to hold. They are dug in, they are holding- but they're taking heavy losses. So it's a meat grinder."


[A]- YES

or

[B]- NO

or

[C] "I watched it, you clown. He said Bakhmut was a meat grinder for the Russians"

or

[D] No answer. I am a coward with no personal integrity.

(#11062, this thread)

[NamPikToot]

Which one is Sabang? I think he is both D and E.

the problem is the press blow these up so people reading the rags think they are everywhere instead of just minorities, now where have we seen that before?

[NamPikToot]

Snubs say you got it wrong as hard as it might be for you so we stop this endless who got it wrong nonsense.

what?

[Troy]

So, anyone any thoughts on how long this conflict is going to last? Are we talking another 5 years or so? I can't see either side stopping without gain.

[NamPikToot]

^Norts is going medium term, Snub is short term if i've read it right

[bsnub]

So, anyone any thoughts on how long this conflict is going to last? Are we talking another 5 years or so? I can't see either side stopping without gain.

^Norts is going medium term, Snub is short term if i've read it right

I think that the coming winter Ukrainian offensive will see a few possibilities;

1. Ukraine will attack and surround Melitopol which will cut logistics supply lines to all Russians in the south of Ukraine and Crimea.

2. Ukraine will do another feint pretending to attack in the south but continue its thunder run in the north, taking Luhansk Oblast and further isolating/encircling Russian forces in Donetsk Oblast basically proving the Russian assault on Bakhmut to be the complete waste of time it has been for months since the Russian rear flanks there will be completely exposed if Luhansk Oblast falls.

3. It will do both simultaneously, but I think that would be a bit of a reach but still remotely possible.

At any rate, as soon as the ground freezes over, shit is going down.

I think the war will largely be over by the end of next summer, with Ukraine fully liberating the south to include Crimea as well as Luhansk oblast. Donestk oblast may survive for another winter. The war will end in 2024 at the latest. Russia has no chance to conduct any substantial offensive operations at any point further in this war. They simply do not have the equipment left to do so. Any further untrained conscripts are just going to be cannon fodder, as they are currently proving to be in Bakhmut.

[bsnub]

[NamPikToot]

I think its Putin dependant and that i cannot predict, the rest is US backed and they are quite happy getting Rusky to flog themselves on Ukr with zero loss of US life, the US contractors rubbing their hands all the while and Europe (UK inc) taking the financial brunt at a civilian level with debt and inflation.

I've said it before, this is and will be the cheapest war the US will ever have with Russia both on a manpower and financial basis.

[bsnub]

I've said it before, this is and will be the cheapest war the US will ever have with Russia both on a manpower and financial basis.

That does not mean that America want it to end as soon as possible with a Russian defeat. The reasons why more advanced weapons have not been supplied by the US is because of EU reservations. I strongly suggest you watch this...



and this...



Slava Ukraini!

[Troy]

^^ I think that might be a little optimistic. Taking Crimea won't be easy and IMO Ukraine are going to need longer range weapons if they are to win in the short term.

I think an offensive around Melitopol would be possible and could create a lot of stress on the Russian troops and logistics.