Ukraine war mega thread

[Troy]

In the background, you can see the cowardly Russian pilot ejected instead of steering his plane out of a populated area. Four died so that coward could live. Typical of Russians.

The idea that a pilot somehow steers his stricken aircraft away from populated areas is just media hype bollocks.

[Takeovers]

The idea that a pilot somehow steers his stricken aircraft away from populated areas is just media hype bollocks.

Actually it did happen at least once. In Berlin during the cold war russian airplanes did terror runs over Berlin frequently. Rooftop altitude, often supersonic, overflies. One day a russian plane crashed into a small lake near the city center. I suspected at the time, the pilot did this intentionally, when he could have ejected and let the plane crash into densely populated areas. My suspicion was confirmed with the release of files after reunification. The pilot did sacrifice himself.

[Takeovers]

The first of them can be described as the faction of “total war.” They think that the West cannot deal with Russia’s existence in principle.

They are not wrong. The West can and will not deal with Russia as it is now.

They believe that the West was getting ready for an offensive on Russia, and is now trying to destroy it by the hands of Ukraine.

That's of course wrong. The West would not have started a war. And Russia knows it. They empty the NATO borders of troops and weapons to fight in Ukraine. Not worried that NATO will use this weakness to attack.

[bsnub]

Actually it did happen at least once.

It has happened many times. This Russian pilot did it...

Thursday’s crash occurred just outside Moscow and involved an SU-27 that was part of the country’s famous aerobatic demonstration team, the ‘Russian Knights,’ who have overflown annual Red Square military parades in the past.
The Russian Defence Ministry was quoted as saying that the pilot of the downed plane, who was killed, did not have time to eject because he had used his last seconds to steer the aircraft away from a populated area.

Russia grounds Su-27 fighter jet fleet after fatal Moscow crash | Reuters

Other instances...

1959 San Diego F3H crash - Wikipedia
Taiwan air crash pilot hailed a hero for steering doomed flight away from skyscrapers | Taiwan | The Guardian

[bsnub]

A good watch...

[David48atTD]

No war porn here ... just a behind the scenes look at a Ukrainian Tank unit ... most of them in their 60's

[misskit]

‘A clear anti-Putin trend’ As the Russian mobilization devolves into chaos, people are, quite rationally, blaming the president

The Kremlin had never expected mobilization to be “popular” with the Russian people. This is the often-cited reason for Russia’s delay in declaring even a “partial mobilization.” Recent urban focus groups, commissioned by the Kremlin itself, have made clear that practically no one approves of the war in Russia’s larger cities. Only some of the very elderly people, who would never have to go to the front, still approve of the “special operation.” Perhaps even more dismaying to the Russian President’s Office is the the growing “frustration” with Vladimir Putin himself. Meduza’s special correspondent Andrey Pertsev interviewed sources close to the Kremlin about how the government gauges political temperatures around the country, and how it tries to keep the society from reaching a boiling point.

On October 17, Moscow’s Mayor Sergey Sobyanin announced that the city had completed its “partial mobilization.”


Mobilization was a great hardship for thousands of Moscow families, whose fathers, husbands, and sons are now joining the army. All the same, meeting the goal of partial mobilization was only possible thanks to, above all, the Muscovites’ sense of responsibility, duty, and patriotism.
Sobyanin added that mobilization offices would close by mid-day, and that residents could disregard the draft letters already sent. According to the mayor, Moscow’s mobilization goal of 16,000 had been met in full. Still, no legal conditions for ending the mobilization are specified in the President’s mobilization decree, or in any other legislative document.


By evening the same day, Andrey Vorobyov, the governor of the Moscow Region, also announced that the region had met its mobilization quota. “Delivery of draft notices is stopped; those who have received them don’t have to show up at the draft office.” Thirty other regions across Russia had by then reported their own completion of the draft.


Kremlin insiders explain this sudden sea change as a result of the “frustration” that, the government sensed, was building among Moscow’s urban population. When police and draft officers began to “ambush” men near subway stations earlier this month, the public responded negatively:


Everyone literally hid. People are afraid and uncertain about their future. Many have left. The level of fear and disapproval is rising all the time. Moscow has turned into a completely different city. These subway raids were a complete circus, it had to be stopped.

The methods that so much upset the public, our source thinks, all came from the Defense Ministry and the law enforcement. In that situation, Sobyanin, who normally prefers “not to associate himself with the military agenda,” had to stoop to the demands and comply with mobilization orders.


When announcing the “completion of mobilization,” the Mayor spoke of the draft (“a great hardship for thousands”) in a tone you might expect of someone speaking about a natural disaster. It’s worth noticing that he didn’t use the official cliché, “special military operation” — not even once. What he said to Muscovites was this:


My dear ones, I want to offer you words of thanks and gratitude. We’re all concerned and worried about your fates, about the hardships and dangers that await you, and which you’re already encountering. Let us hope and pray that you come back alive and well. That you come back victorious. That you protect the safety and sovereignty of our country.
This rhetoric may have been a response to what authorities in large Russian cities learned when the Kremlin commissioned a number of focus groups, to find out what urban residents think about mobilization. According to sources close the President’s Office, those focus groups produced a completely foreseeable result: they made clear that everyone, and not just Muscovites, were “frustrated.” What emerged was


a perfectly clear anti-Putin trend, even among those who support the “special operation.” Even people in favor of it would say that everything is badly organized, and it’s the president’s fault — since it was he who appointed all the other officials and the military. The only ones clearly in favor of the “special operation” are the really elderly people, retirees.
In other words, the war in Ukraine appeals only to Russians who would never have to fight.


For this reason, insiders expect that St. Petersburg will also fold its mobilization campaign in the coming days — even though it hasn’t met its draft quota.

Meanwhile, practically the opposite is happening in the Russian regions, away from the largest urban centers. Despite the fact that, on October 14, President Vladimir Putin publicly promised to end mobilization across Russian “within two weeks,” some regional authorities are, once again, conscripting people.

Once again, a source close to the Kremlin explains that additional mobilization orders were sent to those regions where the earlier phase of the draft went smoothly, “without any noise or scandal.” Their new draft goals are about a fourth to a third of the number of people already conscripted there. This estimate was confirmed by a source close to the presidential envoy in one of the federal districts.


Sources agree that this additional recruitment of soldiers will only take place in some regions, and that it certainly shouldn’t be called a “second wave” of mobilization. One of them pointed out that extra mobilization is a “key performance indicator” for regional authorities.


Still, the insiders Meduza spoke to do expect a real “second wave” of mobilization to take place this winter, when logistical chains and military bases are unloaded from the current round of the draft. Sources also expect that the winter round of mobilization will be more localized, and will rely on the cooperation of employers. Meduza is already in possession of a written request, sent by a regional prosecutor’s office to organizations operating within a local municipality, asking them to provide information about male employees born in 1988 or earlier and fit for military service, together with their addresses and phone numbers.


The Kremlin understands that continuing the mobilization is just as unpopular a step as starting it. The ratings of Russia’s acting government have already plummeted, due to the mobilization. Still, it remains “the president’s order, not up for discussion.”

https://meduza.io/en/feature/2022/10...ti-putin-trend

[panama hat]

most of them in their 60's

Difference between these guys and the Russian conscripts is they are fighting for the survival of their country

[bsnub]

just a behind the scenes look at a Ukrainian Tank unit ... most of them in their 60's

Over on Twitter in a space that I partake in that has the contribution of many military experts from the US, Canada, England and Ukraine it was mentioned all the creative things that the Ukrainians do on the battlefield. One of them was that they use tanks as artillery guns. That is what these guys were doing. Nice find David. Green dispatched.

[bsnub]

The liberation of Kherson is imminent.



More humiliation is coming.

[OhOh]

The liberation of Kherson is imminent.

More humiliation is coming.

So you have been saying for what, 1, 2, 3 .... weeks.

An alternative site, with daily updates, to watch.

More TPPs and transmission systems destroyed. Russia takes more towns, Russia clearing civilians from danger. "Ukraine" soldiers and 16% mercenaries, refusing to orders to attack and die ....

[misskit]

Kherson occupation authorities send text message calling for residents to leave city

The Russian-installed occupation administration in Ukraine’s Kherson region has sent a text message to all Kherson residents urging them to leave the city to avoid possible shelling from the Ukrainian army.


“Dear citizens! The Ukrainian Armed Forces are going to shell residential areas. [There will be] buses going from the River Port to the Left Bank beginning at 7:00. For info: 88003019999,” read the message, according to RIA Novosti. Residents reportedly received the message on Wednesday morning.


Kherson occupation administration deputy head Kirill Stremousov told RIA Novosti that Ukraine has concentrated forces along the frontline in the Kherson region. “Kherson is turning into a fortress,” he said.


Stremousov also claimed Ukrainian troops will begin an offensive “soon,” and that Kherson and the region’s right-bank section could come under fire. “We have no intention of surrendering the city. We’ll stay to the end,” he told reporters.

https://meduza.io/en/news/2022/10/19...-to-leave-city

[OhOh]

Ꙃstated


"I explain to people who cannot understand logic and common sense why the jump of Ukrainians to Kherson (DO, they are unlikely to take the city, we are not going to leave) is an exclusively media operation.

What will an adequate military command do in the event that the enemy brings new reserves to the front in two weeks? Let me remind you that Russia has just mobilized 300 thousand bayonets - the number that Ukraine was able to call on in just six months is unlikely to be more (but the Russians, by the way, will be able to later, the mobile resource is wider). At first glance, it seems that indeed, it is necessary to move forward as quickly as possible, conquering more territory. The logical goal here seems to be to go to the Dnieper, if possible, capturing Kherson itself. Everything seems to be reasonable.

But let's put this decision in the context of realities. From the line of contact to Kherson, the Khokhls will have to overcome from the line Pravdino - Snigirevka - Dudchany to the city, respectively, 20 km, 40 km and 100 km. Suppose, within a week or two, Ukrainians will be able to make such a breakthrough. But in what condition will they approach the city? I assure you, the Russians will not give such an escape as in the Kharkov region: the grouping in the south is different, and reinforcements are brought in every day, and artillery and aircraft show themselves with a bang. Moreover, literally the other day, the Armed Forces of Ukraine already tried to make such a jump, from Dudchan and Novaya Kamenka - the Russians turned them back, forcing them to pay a price of no less than a regiment.

That is, the Ukrainian jump to Kherson has every chance of getting the glory of "bloody", for the crests themselves. Having lost in watermelon fields, under artillery and aviation fire, several regiments, up to a division. And then, the shabby Ukrainian army in the urban development of Kherson is met by a fresh, fortified by several waves of reservists, Russian defensive grouping. The question is "what's next?" let's consider it rhetorical. "

That is, the decision to go to Kherson on the eve of the dramatic strengthening of the Russian grouping in the south, in current conditions (coordinated work of artillery / aviation) seems to be extremely disastrous for the Armed Forces of Ukraine. From a military point of view, it has no practical meaning. But such a decision can and even is political. Another "victory" of crests in the form of recapturing a significant territory will show the American electorate that Joe Biden was not mistaken, and his military assistance helped, therefore, will help in the future. And a direct threat to Kherson and the entrance to its suburbs is already hitting Vladimir Putin's rating. What will happen next, within the framework of the current electoral cycle, nobody cares. It will be another story.

In general, a purely political case. He's media. And let stupid crests and lovers of posting trances masturbate on the great strategy of the Ukrainian victory.

Yours, Ꙃstated

t.me/zastavnyii /1918
72.3K views Oct 18 at 23:54

https://t.me/zastavnyii/1918

[OhOh]

A map of PP and electricity transmission lines.

Most PP's or transmission line, east of the yellow line, is being attack/destroyed. Leaving the western infrastructure alone.

As posted previously, the western infrastructure requires connectivity, otherwise the western NPP's will potentially go boom.

[Neverna]

As posted previously, the western infrastructure requires connectivity, otherwise the western NPP's will potentially go boom.

Hi OhOh,
I haven't been following this thread and there are 9514 posts in it. Can you point me to the relevant post, please?

Thanks.

[helge]

just a behind the scenes look at a Ukrainian Tank unit ... most of them in their 60's

Most stupid decisions are taken by men of age, 60ies, and in war defended by young men in their teens.

Refreshing if the old fuckers are being offed for once.

it was mentioned all the creative things that the Ukrainians do on the battlefield. One of them was that they use tanks as artillery guns. That is what these guys were doing.

Noooooo

Use tanks as artillery ?

Unheard of

Unbelieveable

How inventive

[OhOh]

Can you point me to the relevant post, please?

Certainly.

It certainly would if the whole system was destroyed. As we have seen previously, NPP's require an electricity supply to manage them safely. If not managed, the possibility of explosions are known. As there are a number of NPP's in Ukraine, it would be disastrous, 5 or 6 Chernobyl's.

One video I saw suggested that Russia may take out the eastern area connections/transmission/pylons systems. Leaving the western systems with means to manage the western located NPP's.

[helge]

Hi OhOh,
I haven't been following this thread and there are 9514 posts in it. Can you point me to the relevant post, please?

Thanks.

Read it all

It's some cocktail of informative, childish, shockingly naive, ignorant, facist...... and to mention my own, sensible posts

Bon appetit

[baldrick]

Bon appetit

Warning - consumption of this thread can lead to hair loss

[david44]

can lead to hair loss

As can a buffet Breakfast at Ipanema or as the cariocas call it a Full Brazilian

[helge]

Warning - consumption of this thread can lead to hair loss

Can

But if you avoid the bald faced lies of Snobby, you'll be alright

[Neverna]

A map of PP and electricity transmission lines.

Most PP's or transmission line, east of the yellow line, is being attack/destroyed. Leaving the western infrastructure alone.

As posted previously, the western infrastructure requires connectivity, otherwise the western NPP's will potentially go boom.

If an NPP is running, it can provide its own electricity and so would not need to be connected to the whole grid. It could provide enough for its own use.

If the NPPs are completely shut down and are not generating electricity, they require some electricity. It is unlikely that the western half of Ukraine will have zero electricity. It can produce its own and if not, it can import some from the EU. The Ukraine system is linked to the EU via an interconnector in Romania, and also I believe through Moldova. The Ukrainians should be able to route some electricity to the shut down NPPs. If they cannot do that, diesel generators can provide some temporary emergency back-up until they can.

[Troy]

Actually it did happen at least once.

There's always the odd exception to prove the rule...



...but loss of power after takeoff from here and there is nowhere to go. Sorry, I don't buy the hero steering a stricken plane to save others otherwise you're a coward crap.

[sabang]

I found this interesting-

[sabang]

Since Russia launched its "special military operation" into neighbouring Ukraine, media, political organisations and researchers in Ukrainian allied countries have accused Moscow of launching a propaganda blitzkrieg meant to justify the invasion.

Key points:

• Propaganda is the use of either real or fake information to manipulate opinion
• Experts say the Kremlin has focused on deception and defamation along with censorship
• They say Ukraine has used guilt and outrage to gain support from the West

Most notably the Kremlin has claimed Ukraine was committing "genocide" against its Russian-speaking population in the country's east.

It has also accused Kyiv of being aligned with Nazism, citing the "denazification" of Ukraine as a key reason for the invasion, and of operating biological weapons laboratories with US support.

However, experts say the Ukrainians have also been running a propaganda campaign of their own.

And while Ukraine has proved surprisingly effective against better equipped Russian forces on the battleground while still suffering some heavy losses, the story is much the same in the information war as well.

The propaganda learning curve


War propaganda is the use of either real or fake information to manipulate opinion and evoke strong emotional reactions, such as fear, anger, guilt, admiration or outrage, explained Paul Baines, Professor of Political Marketing at the University of Leicester.

It has been used throughout history as a key tool of war and has become a "necessity" of conflict that can take many forms, Mr Baines told the ABC.

While Russian claims of great victories against Ukrainian "Nazis" may be regarded as laughable in the West — where in some cases evidence to the contrary has been publicised before the claim itself — researchers say these tactics have proved highly effective within Russia and among Russian allies.

Russia has spent decades perfecting a propaganda machine, through media control, censorship and harsh laws that forbid the dissemination of "false information" about the Russian army.

But early in the conflict, myths began to emerge from Ukraine as well.



Photos from other conflicts, movies and even video games were posted on social media claiming to be Russian attacks.

While researchers say these did not appear to originate from state-sanctioned internet "trolls", as was the case in Russia, there were other narratives that were spread by government sources.

One story that was debunked by experts was that of the so-called Ghost of Kyiv, a mystery fighter pilot who was credited by the Ukrainian government with having shot down 10 Russian fighter jets.

The image below turned out to be footage from a video game.

It's not just states or citizens involved in the conflict who have been spreading disinformation.

People "who have no apparent stake in the war have also been spinning conspiracy theories", said Esther Chan, APAC bureau editor at the Information Futures Lab.
Ms Chan said they were often just looking to boost their own social media following.

However, Ukraine needs the backing of NATO and Western allies, where exuberant claims can backfire in the face of independent media and non-government watchdogs and think tanks.

While Ukraine supporters do still periodically post fake videos and false claims, the Ukrainian government has in more recent times taken a different approach.



A screenshot from the Ukraine facts website that debunks information from both sides of the Ukraine conflict.(Supplied: UkraineFacts.org)More subtle tactics

While the Kremlin focused on deception and defamation along with censorship, Ukraine focused on diplomacy with the West, highlighting Russian atrocities and Ukrainian combat wins, Mr Baines said.

As Russia used fear and anger in attempts to justify it's invasion, Ukraine, who had been plunged into the war and by many counts held the moral high ground, used guilt and outrage to gain support from the West, he explained.

Fact checking misinformation on Ukraine

As the world continues to process Russia's invasion of Ukraine, it's become increasingly difficult to verify what's going on. But fact checkers in and outside the country have been busy debunking misinformation.





Read more


"Talking about their dire situation is not untrue, but the Ukrainians can play on that feeling of guilt," Mr Baines said.

He added that President Volodymyr Zelenskyy — a former comedian and actor — had effectively weaponised the suffering of Ukrainians to exacerbate feelings of guilt and responsibility in the West.

"Zelenskyy's efforts at guilt tripping the West have resulted in probably one of the biggest shifts in military material to another country in history."

Kyiv and Mr Zelenskyy himself have further built up an image of the "brave Ukrainian", helping with recruitment efforts as well as morale, Mr Baines said.



This image was posted on social media claiming to be fleeing Russians. It is actually a traffic jam from crowds leaving the Burning Man festival in the US.(Supplied: Twitter)

In recent weeks, Western media has been flooded with accounts of Russians fleeing conscription, with both real and fake images of convoys of fleeing Russians spreading on social media.

Meanwhile, Mr Baines said the "overarching narrative" in Ukraine has focused on the thousands of Ukrainians who volunteered to fight.

But conscription has also long existed in Ukraine and at the beginning of the conflict, the Ukraine government banned all men aged 18-60 from leaving the country, instead instructing them to report for duty at a military recruitment office.

Russia still winning information war on many fronts


While Ukraine may be winning hearts and minds in the West, elsewhere, Russia's more blatant tactics are succeeding, according to Darren Linvill, an associate professor at Clemson who co-leads the Media Forensics Hub.

"While we like to think Ukraine is winning the information war, outside of the West, they are just not," Mr Linvill said.

"It's an uncomfortable reality ... but a lot of the world is on Putin's side."

Putin's propaganda war

Voices sympathetic to Russia are posing as fact-checkers in a bid to sow doubt and confusion, and to drain sympathy from a world watching the invasion of Ukraine.




Read more


Mr Linvill has been researching Russian propaganda and social media troll farms since their involvement in the 2016 US presidential election, identifying many millions of accounts with hundreds of thousands of followers on multiple platforms.

But the Kremlin's disinformation campaigns against Ukraine are not primarily aimed at English language news outlets.

"The main target audience of most disinformation is a country's own people," he said.

He said it was clear Moscow's defamation campaigns had gained traction everywhere besides English-language social media and western Europe.

Russia's false-flag propaganda



This still is from a video that claims to debunk Ukraine propaganda over a seized Russian tank. However, the doctored footage was not found anywhere outside of the video debunking the fake claim.(Supplied)

One remarkably effective tactic used by Russia early in the war was disinformation false-flag operations, Mr Linvill said.

Dozens of videos were circulated claiming to debunk apparently nonexistent Ukrainian fakes.

The goal was to cast doubt over real images of Russian defeats, civilian deaths and destruction caused by the Ukraine invasion, he said.

Russian troll accounts, that were created to spread propaganda and fake news, began posting warnings to beware of propaganda and fake news, he said.



Darren Linvill is an associate professor at Clemson who co-leads the Media Forensics Hub.(Supplied)

"It's because of disinformation that that particular form of disinformation was so effective at reaching a broad audience," he said.

"We were primed to look for disinformation."

Mr Linvill said the distrust that has resulted from fake news has led to unhealthy levels of distrust in society and has spurred harmful conspiracy theories.

While critical thinking is important, so is being able to trust.

"You can't simply distrust everything you read," he said.

"You just have to learn what to trust and learn the processes by which information flows."

https://www.xxx.xxx.xx/news/2022-10-19/how-ukraine-is-playing-its-own-version-of-the-propaganda-game/101522066