Thread: "support the troops"

All governments want a monopoly on violence Ray.
That is why killing for your country in a uniform is deemed "honourable", no matter how barbaric or what the justifications.
Non government sanctioned killing is, by contrast,"barbaric".

Originally Posted by raycarey

yeah, it's horrible, but why is their such a hysterical, knee-knocking reaction?

No, I do not have any "hysterical, knee-knocking reaction", it's the same our right-wingers get when they advocate the killing of more 'ragheads'. You still don't get it, do you? Or being deliberately obtuse?

You are actively proposing, advocating and wishing for the beheadings of US soldiers and other personell.

Originally Posted by sabang

All governments want a monopoly on violence Ray.
That is why killing for your country in a uniform is deemed "honourable", no matter how barbaric or what the justifications.

Bullshit.

Originally Posted by sabang

Non government sanctioned killing is, by contrast,"barbaric"

Yes, it is "barbaric", specially when people are cheering and condoning it.
Often the same ones who like who shout foul about other forms of violence and cruelty.

I am surprised some of the more intelligent posters here fall for this hypocricy.

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by sabang

All governments want a monopoly on violence Ray.
That is why killing for your country in a uniform is deemed "honourable", no matter how barbaric or what the justifications.

Bullshit.

So, give me an example of a government that is not under attack,civil war or occupation that does not want it's security forces (military and police) having a monopoly on violence then stroller?

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by Milkman

Once again, I seem to feel that there is a double-standard in the value of human life.

Are you talking to me - surely not?

No stroll, I was not referring to you at all.

I am referring to the American public and the people I visit with back home.

Many of them do feel this way.

Originally Posted by sabang

All governments want a monopoly on violence Ray.
That is why killing for your country in a uniform is deemed "honourable", no matter how barbaric or what the justifications.
Non government sanctioned killing is, by contrast,"barbaric".

Indeed the only difference in, legal terms, between terrorism and war is that the latter is the poltical violece of sovoreign state and the former is the poltical violence of a person or group acting without the authority of state.

so while many americans drive around in SUVs adorned with 'support the troops' stickers, 25 more soldiers died in the last four days---primarily due to IEDs.

support the troops.

but don't give them the armour they need....and were promised.


http://www.nytimes.com/2007/06/23/wo...hp&oref=slogin

these are just normal guys, im sure many of you have been forces at some point, and know what they will feel like. they say the same things about bush and blair as we do, and belive me no one will want troops out more than the troops themselves.
they did not make the discission to go there, the heads of state did.
now they are there they should get support, even more so when they get back.
show your angers and critisism to the govenments and heads of state, by not voting for them.

Originally Posted by navydoubs1977

these are just normal guys, im sure many of you have been forces at some point, and know what they will feel like. they say the same things about bush and blair as we do, and belive me no one will want troops out more than the troops themselves.
they did not make the discussion to go there, the heads of state did.
now they are there they should get support, even more so when they get back.
show your angers and criticism to the governments and heads of state, by not voting for them.

Excuses....excuses.

U.S. citizens in Iraq, be they diplomats, military, or private contractors are imperialists who are simply doing what the U.S. government has been doing for 150 years.

They are supporting a Shiite government in Iraq that is composed of:

Nouri Al-Maliki of the Dawa party,

Sayyid Abdul Azziz Al-hakim of the SCIRI party - Security Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (they recently changed their name - how convenient).

Sayyid Moqtada Al-Sadr (who recently withdrew from the above coalition.
because of no timetable for the U.S. to withdraw.

Why should the Sunni groups sit down at the table and negotiate with the above, who will kill them and cut their families' throats?

The Shiite coalition parliament of Iraq recently offered an "oil bill" to the Sunnis which they have rejected.

The future Shiite government in Iraq will be in bed with Iran. They re very close.

Do I support the above? No.


The "troops" support the above.

Therefore, I don't support the troops.


It's not about the troops, it's about internecine Iraq political and sectarian issues.

The personal perspective of a soldier is interesting, though.

They don't all support whatever politics are played, they are pawns in the game.

Originally Posted by stroller

The personal perspective of a soldier is interesting, though.

They don't all support whatever politics are played, they are pawns in the game.

I agree 100%, stroller.

They are pawns in the game.

Small pawns.


Their job is not to debate public policy nor international foreign policy.

That is exactly why we should not support the troops.

Nor should we not support them.


This is NOT about the troops.

stroller none of them will support the politics that has seen them end up there. they will ALL wanna be at home.

Originally Posted by navydoubs1977

this thread is all about the troops hence its name.
i cant and wont talk about the us forces. the uk guys do not want to be there. my last patrol was out that way and i didnt want to be there. yet alone out on the battlefront daily.

I communicate with US folks IN Iraq. It is very dangerous. I think the sentiments are similar.

Originally Posted by Milkman

Their job is not to debate public policy nor international foreign policy.

navydoubs1997:

so i should not be alowed to debate this here?????

No. Not at all.

You should voice your opinion like anyone else. I want to hear it. I respect it.

navydoubs1977:

i take it you mean the troops suporting the governments physically, and not mentally. they are there physically supporting. however they do not want to be there.
by supporting them we are not asking you to grab a gun and go help.

I know this.

navydoubs1977

on there return though they will need help, there will be those who will come home to have nothing, wife gone, house gone (i see it every patrol).

"Freedom is not free."

This is tough luck. Civilians get divorces, lose houses, and have nothing.

They are choosing to support Shiites.

Maybe they should ask Allah for help?

Originally Posted by Milkman

Maybe they should ask Allah for help?

a few of them probably do lol

Originally Posted by Milkman

This is tough luck. Civilians get divorces, lose houses, and have nothing.

of courses this happens all the time to civis, but they are normally at home, when your away and can do nothing about it, its bloody hard. im only young and dont comapre it in anyway to somethings that happen, but my ex ran off with another matlow while i was underwater for 3 months, had no idea till i got home. felt like the end of the world at the time.

Originally Posted by Milkman

They are choosing to support Shiites.

i dont belive they are CHOOSING to support. they are made to. by governments and senior officers, the troops do not choose. they could refuse to fight, but then get kicked out or imprisened and have no job or money. most people who join myself included, never drempt we would have to go to war.

[quote=navydoubs1977;331767]

Originally Posted by Milkman

Maybe they should ask Allah for help?

a few of them probably do lol

Originally Posted by Milkman

This is tough luck. Civilians get divorces, lose houses, and have nothing.

of courses this happens all the time to civis, but they are normally at home, when your away and can do nothing about it, its bloody hard. im only young and dont comapre it in anyway to somethings that happen, but my ex ran off with another matlow while i was underwater for 3 months, had no idea till i got home. felt like the end of the world at the time.

Sorry to hear this.

I grew up in a Navy town. Pure Navy.

Guys would leave on what was called "WestPac." 6 straight months on an Aircraft Carrier. Gone. Lot of strange things happen.

Also, I live 20 minutes away from a Nuclear Submarine base. 90 days under. These marriages seem more solid (but I can't be sure.

It's hard.

I cannot imagine being married (especially in my 20 or up to my mid 30s) and being gone so long.

Originally Posted by Milkman

They are choosing to support Shiites.

navydoubs1977:

i dont belive they are CHOOSING to support. they are made to. by governments and senior officers, the troops do choose....

I agree.


That is why the "support the troops" mentality is a trick to fool the general puclic into supporting the government, IMO.

Originally Posted by Milkman

That is why the "support the troops" mentality is a trick to fool the general puclic into supporting the government, IMO.

totally agree. supporting the troops should not be supporting the goverment they should be seen as two very very different things.

im a submariner myself, lots of relationships work because the girls get to do there own thing for 3 months then hubbys back for a bit and its all happy.
loads of marriges go to bits when the guys leave and are home all the time.
which base are you near, halifax???
went there on a misile trial once, didnt see much f it but remember was dam cold lol.

Originally Posted by navydoubs1977

Originally Posted by Milkman

That is why the "support the troops" mentality is a trick to fool the general puclic into supporting the government, IMO.

totally agree. supporting the troops should not be supporting the goverment they should be seen as two very very different things.

im a submariner myself, lots of relationships work because the girls get to do there own thing for 3 months then hubbys back for a bit and its all happy.
loads of marriges go to bits when the guys leave and are home all the time.
which base are you near, halifax???
went there on a misile trial once, didnt see much f it but remember was dam cold lol.

I grew up and still have family near Pacific Northwest of the U.S.

I lived 10 minutes from PSNS - Puget Sound Naval Shipyard, which has the largest dry dock in the world. (I'm not trying to be snobby or big.) When you seen an Aircraft Carrier in Dry Dock, it's quite a site.

I also lived about 20 minutes from Bangor Submarine base, which has several Nuclear Subs.

Fort Lewis (Army) is about 35 minutes away.

McChord Air Force Base about 45 minutes away.



We're off-topic here, but yes Navy marriages seem to be more complex, and I've personally experienced some strange things, because when the wife is getting a divorve, she says how rotten this guy is, while he is never at home and he is paying the rent and all of the bills, and she is dating other people.

Too, strange.

Originally Posted by navydoubs1977

stroller none of them will support the politics that has seen them end up there. they will ALL wanna be at home.

Well, yeah, maybe true for the Brits. But still, they signed up, what did they think they'd let themselves into?

Originally Posted by Milkman

We're off-topic here, but yes Navy marriages seem to be more complex, and I've personally experienced some strange things, because when the wife is getting a divorve, she says how rotten this guy is, while he is never at home and he is paying the rent and all of the bills, and she is dating other people.

that happens far too often. how can the guy be causing trouble.
then the women ends up keeping the house getting paid by the fella till the kids leave home or school. then there are those guys who cause themselves all the trouble. alot of guys get jealous over very little things (sometimes understandable when there underwater in very odd conditions with low oxy levels) so then the wife says she went to the office party and all hell brakes loose. women have to be able to live when guys are away, too many expect the wife to sit in all night waiting for them to come home, and it dont happen.

Originally Posted by stroller

Well, yeah, maybe true for the Brits. But still, they signed up, what did they think they'd let themselves into?

i think its true for the large majority. i cant see anyone wanting to go get shot at.

like i said when your 16 (in my case) you dont ever expect to be going to war you join to get the uniform, impress the girls and get paid.
many of these guys are from harder backgrounds than i was lucky to have had and have little education of anykind. they are not interested in politics just how quickly they can get to the pub at the end of the day.
thats not a generalisation of all forces, just my view, i know there are some very intellegent guys there too. none will have joined to go fight though, lack of work at home or the lure of travel will have made that choice for them.
war is never mentioned at carreers offices

Originally Posted by navydoubs1977

Originally Posted by Milkman

We're off-topic here, but yes Navy marriages seem to be more complex, and I've personally experienced some strange things, because when the wife is getting a divorve, she says how rotten this guy is, while he is never at home and he is paying the rent and all of the bills, and she is dating other people.

that happens far too often. how can the guy be causing trouble.
then the women ends up keeping the house getting paid by the fella till the kids leave home or school. then there are those guys who cause themselves all the trouble. alot of guys get jealous over very little things (sometimes understandable when there underwater in very odd conditions with low oxy levels) so then the wife says she went to the office party and all hell brakes loose. women have to be able to live when guys are away, too many expect the wife to sit in all night waiting for them to come home, and it dont happen.

(Continuing off-topic, sorry, but this does involve the "troops" as in military personnel.)

I think Army, Marine, Air Force marriages are very different from Navy marriages.

What is common is a guy who is out at sea, having friends drive by the house of his wife.....looking for cars in the driveway, or just seeing if people are over....this has happened more than once with me, just visiting a friend who was married....they can only make assumptions.

Especially couple in their 20s. Wives are in a town far from home far away. They have other Navy couples to hang out with but they do get bored and lonely.

That's when problems may happen.

And the U.S. Navy severely punishes people based upon adultory, or even having platonic friends.

The pay isn't high enough now. No thanks.

milkman i couldnt agree more. my pay as a killick submariner is fair infact i belive for the work i do it bladdy amazing lol. however to go away for 6 months out of everyyear for 22yrs isnt worth it.
im a med downgrade at the moment due to a head injury back in 2003. its more than likely i will be med dischrged in the very near future.
i wont miss it one little bit.
The uk navy likes to portray itself as a family, what crap!
its a job thats it, just a job.
this is something i think gets lost on many people they think its a club or a team everyone loves, far from it, i would say 80% of my friends and colleages do not enjoy it. they become trapped with good pay, incentives and strategically given bonuses to keep people in around the times they would be thinking of leaving.

If this trip back to thai goes well might be my new home pretty soon lol.

Originally Posted by Milkman

And the U.S. Navy severely punishes people based upon adultory, or even having platonic friends.

i never knew that. dont think we have anything similar.