Thread: EU Future

Another mention today on the current state of the euro and the consequences of EU leaders not undestanding the problem.

Wow, now that's surprising news to everyone! Only 4 years buggering about trying to make citizens pay for their friends mistakes in the casino world by cutting public expenditure when they really should have given every family 1m euro to spend to get the economy back on track.

George Soros says three months to save the euro




Billionaire investor George Soros has warned European leaders they have a "three-month window" to save the euro.

He said he believed Greece would elect a government willing to abide by loan conditions imposed by the EU in this month's elections.

But he said the German economy would begin to weaken in the autumn, making it much harder for Chancellor Angela Merkel to provide further support.

He said leaders did not understand "the nature of the crisis". (Green for Soros!!)

He said that while European leaders were focusing on debt levels, the crisis was "more of a banking problem and a problem of competitiveness".

For this reason, he said they had "applied the wrong remedy".

"You cannot reduce the debt burden by shrinking the economy, only by growing your way out of it," he added.

Mr Soros, speaking at a conference in Italy, was referring to the drastic austerity measures that have been implemented across Europe, measures that are now being questioned by a growing number of politicians and commentators.

Without policies to boost growth, which would enable governments to raise revenue to pay down debt, Mr Soros said time was running out for the euro.

"I expect the Greek public will be sufficiently frightened by the prospect of expulsion from the EU that it will give a narrow majority of seats to a coalition that is ready to abide by the current [bailout] agreement," he said.

However, this would provide only temporary respite, he warned, as the German public becomes less willing to continue bailing out its weaker European neighbours.

"The crisis is likely to come to a climax in the [autumn]. By that time, the German economy will also be weakening, so that Chancellor Merkel will find it even more difficult than today to persuade the German public to accept any additional European responsibilities.

"That is what creates a three-month window."

Originally Posted by larvidchr

"- Europe as a whole has no fiscal problems.

From the very first sentence its wrong. I guess this analysis is from someone trying to cool the anxiety of investors in the EU? failed economies such as exist presently throughout the EU make it pretty apparent this is not a mirage.

Greece, Spain, Iceland, Ireland, Portugal, and Italy, all are not a mirage.

Soros has made a lot of money but remember he is just one more bandit making money on paper only, finance people want us to spend money we do not have, Obama wants Europe to do what he did, print oceans of money and infuse them into the economy, making people spend in Europe and buy American goods to save his arse, but it is all borrowed money and if the gamble fails we are all fucked.

The old "use less than you have coming in" will always be the right way, but now we are governed by finance market powers who wants to see growth all the time fuelling their profits, 20% or more and they are happy, they don't give a hoot where the imaginary paper money comes from as long as there is growth on paper.

We need to break this finance market religion, throttle it back to having tangible products or property to back up any measured wealth, to banks actually having the money in cash to cover any loans, and stop allowing Banks to insure and re-insure reckless gambling on the market, ending with normal taxpayers having to bail out the arseholes. We need to regulate shorting and financial gambling on losses.

What Soros wants, the rating agencys, international finance gamblers, and Obama is for Europe to print money, stay on playing the game that brought the US down, because the US economy is slowing again, the money they infused are gone and things start to contract again, as it inevitable will when you have overspend massively for decades and suddenly cant pay the piper any-more.

But it will be a mistake making more debt before we have figured out how to tackle the Asian challenge, more Jobs will go, not come, and Western economies will slow down further, as long as money can be saved moving production out to 3 world economies.

Private profit comes before allegiance to the country where a company have had it's start and help to grow big, there is no patriotism in international finance, believing a word those swine say is a incredible folly by any Government, we need to safeguard production of actual goods in the West, we cant all survive on financial services in the long run.

Originally Posted by ltnt

Originally Posted by larvidchr

"- Europe as a whole has no fiscal problems.

From the very first sentence its wrong. I guess this analysis is from someone trying to cool the anxiety of investors in the EU? failed economies such as exist presently throughout the EU make it pretty apparent this is not a mirage.

Greece, Spain, Iceland, Ireland, Portugal, and Italy, all are not a mirage.

No it is the facts, most economists agree, it is not the actual debt that is the problem, but the financial market trust or no trust, a floating fictive thing with other mechanic's than the actual numbers steering the boat.

Yes there are struggling economies but there are also great ones in the EU, and the collected debts are much smaller than the collected US debts, but the finance markets believe more in the US paper worthless bonds and give better rates than the numbers actually warrant.

It is fundamental different views on economics in play more than the numbers themselves, EU can buy Greece many times over and not feel it, but the threat of a Greece meltdown and ousting of the Euro alone, makes finance people worry about other countries, and the worry alone, not the numbers makes those countries borrowing more expensive than it should be, thus the whole process is self-propelling making a real crisis where none should be.

^ & ^^ Hear hear!

Originally Posted by Mr Lick

"You cannot reduce the debt burden by shrinking the economy, only by growing your way out of it," he added.

wise words, indeed this is the core of the problem

thank god we have central banks to over ride the decisions of clueless politicians,

fiscal policies managed by incompetent politicians is what make things worse,

Originally Posted by larvidchr

most economists agree, it is not the actual debt that is the problem,

amazing blank statement, do you have any more of those jewels ?

the debt is not the issue, it's too much debt not being used effectively to finance growth

Originally Posted by larvidchr

We need to break this finance market religion, throttle it back to having tangible products or property to back up any measured wealth, to banks actually having the money in cash to cover any loans, and stop allowing Banks to insure and re-insure reckless gambling on the market, ending with normal taxpayers having to bail out the arseholes. We need to regulate shorting and financial gambling on losses.

jesus, you must be an economic genius, returning to a batter economy in the middle age is hardly a solution. There will not be any tangible assets without debt and financing. What about cash ? they will grow on trees like they used to ?

Sorro's and his predictions are like having the friendship of Judas.

the extension of "bailout," money from the EUB and effectively Germany is running out. Of course they can and will no doubt turn on the printing presses once again to forestall the inevitable collapse of Greece and others who have drank the cool aid of continued borrowing and inflation of appraisal values. Until Spain has a overall reduction in foreclosures, failed loans and people living at 125% above their incomes there will be no stopping the failure of their economy. With 25% of their workforce out of work, mostly between the ages of 21 and 35, the future is dim sadly.

As for advice from America and Obama, who would listen to this guy in the first place. His economic picture isn't one anyone wants to model after. Giving advice to others should be reserved for qualified people not idiots. America needs to mind its own economic failure and let Europe do the same. BTW, thanks to all those EU banks and bankers who bought all those bundled packages of US government held mortgages and helped bring this all about. Fanny and Freddi thank you all.

We can all thank the bankers and loan agencies for this collapse as well hold ourselves responsible for our own greed if that was your way of life.

the very core definition of money, a note, is the very basis of a debt. Bank notes are debt. Are you suggesting that we should get rid of money ? how will you buy tangible assets ? with land and gold like the good old days ?

^ One will be forced to "barter." Gold or paper will be meaningless in an absolute melt down.

barter doesn't work, which is why it only exists in pre-industrial (and pre-mediaeval) societies.
humans are used to currency, in the same way they are used to wheels and knives, and other such funadmental bits of technology.
in an "absolute meltdown", another currency will naturally evolve... it may be cigarettes, but that doesn't make it barter.

^ Barter an ounce of gold for 150 cartons of cigarettes, would that be OK with you?

then Gold is currency, which has always been, it's a financial asset

hey, we could issue notes against Gold when everything meltdown, that should take care of the debt problem

Originally Posted by Butterfly

hey, we could issue notes against Gold when everything meltdown,

That was called the "Gold Standard." til they stopped using it in the 70's when gold was $35 oz and went to $500+ and then dumped all those Gold Bugs for years until this present melt down.

Remember Ft. Knox? That's where the USA held all its gold reserves for backup of the paper dollars supposedly. What a myth. The US used to issue gold notes which could be traded for bullion.

Nonsense, the barter system is alive and living in the modern world. Millions of people participate in it daily. Check it out on Google.

The Gold standard is a joke, isn't it ? we are supposed to issue debt against a pretty piece of shiny metal ? how more foolish can it be ?

Originally Posted by Butterfly

The Gold standard is a joke, isn't it ? we are supposed to issue debt against a pretty piece of shiny metal ?

Yes it is a joke but it works as long as everybody agrees with it.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

how more foolish can it be ?

Issuing debt against a piece of paper with some symbols on it. Not even shiny

Originally Posted by lom

Issuing debt against a piece of paper with some symbols on it. Not even shiny

not exactly true, it's issuing debt against the credibility of an active and competent government, much better than an inert piece of metal

the problem is the active and competent part

Originally Posted by Butterfly

The Gold standard is a joke, isn't it ?

Of course it is, but at the time people believed that every dollar was backed up by gold held in Ft. Knox. Remember we're talking about a society that has recently gone through the "Great Depression." They even believed Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Currency in the form of some Governments printed piece of paper is nothing more than "faith," that this document holds some value backed by the associated government. Its always been that way and its not ever going to change as long as ignoramuses like myself keep accepting it as legal tender.

I remember a line from my philosophy classes where-in the professor proclaimed, "By what standard shall we be judged?" Same applies to monetary values.

anyway, money is debt, always been. Reducing debt is at par with reducing money circulating. What do you think will happen to the economy and tangible assets when this happens ?

^ Nothing...the cycle will be recreated and off again into the credit/risk fiasco.

People want and use the manufactured products. How are they going to purchase a new fridge or TV or stereo? Here's my chicken? Sir, that'll be four and one third ounces of silver or two grams of gold or three cigarettes....

If I were into survival, I'd be buying "Water Resources," not gold futures or oil.

Originally Posted by ltnt

If I were into survival, I'd be buying "Water Resources," not gold futures or oil.

If you were into survival you would be buying physical gold not someone's promise.

Have you ever tried to take "delivery" of an ounce of gold's worth of certified potable water, 5,000 litres lets say. The local 711 will not be open after a day or so.

Have you ever tried to protect a river or a reservoir from pollution or intruders?