Thread: Thousands to occupy Wall Street in protest

Originally Posted by misskit

^It's amazing you think a cop is right for pepper-spraying a bunch of harmless students for blocking the sidewalk while demonstrating yet you make so many excuses not to punish those corporations or the people in the corporations for ruining the economy of the whole country.

Then want to call people Stalinist, you Fascist.

Good Morning Ms Kitty.....I see you have elevated me to Fascist status now. That means I must be onto something here....

So; do you think the police should not enforce laws? Do you think corporations should not have "rights"?

I have not suggested anywhere that wrongdoers should not be prosecuted. I have simply pointed out that much of what happened to bring down the banking system was irresponsible, incompetent, unethical and damaging for many people; but it would be very difficult to fit any of those things into a successful criminal case. I stress the word successful.

It is ridiculous to suggest that corporate interests are never prosecuted and punished. Case law is crammed full of successful suits against corporations. Enron being one high profile example recently. Remember the Savings and Loan fiasco.....lots of people jailed.

Class action suits against Auto manufacturers, chemical companies and others have resulted in massive payouts----both in compensatory and punitive damages. Liability insurance is a very expensive commodity for many companies because of the constant threats of having to defend against lawsuits both legitimate and frivolous......like the woman who was awarded a million dollars or something because she spilled a cup of coffee on herself...which McDonalds had sold her. The coffee was deemed to be "too hot"

Investment banking is the culprit here...not just banking. Retail banking is a totally different beast, and the one most people are familiar with. Some compelling arguments have been made in favor of proscuting the Investment bank executives as criminals. Personally I think of them as criminals too, but only from an emotional standpoint. As soon as I take my idealist hat off and put on my legal hat, it becomes a lot less clear. There is no clear cut criminal wrongdoing....we just think of it as criminal because a lot of damage was done and we naturally want those responsible to be punished. We want revenge.

If someone avoids paying a lot of tax by taking advantage of user friendly tax rules.....it infuriates those who have to pay a lot of tax because they could not make the rules work for themselves......but the guy who used the rules to his advantage is not doing anything criminal. The way to correct this is not to prosecute the guy who avoided paying the tax within the existing rules; but to change the rules.

If you listen carefully to what people like Lloyd Blankfein (GS CEO) has to say about these matters, in front of a Congressional hearing; you would begin to understand why it is so difficult to make any kind of criminal charges stick. He will talk very aggressively about "risk" and how it is viewed by professionals in the industry. How some people had taken excessive risk....but it did not seem excessive at the time....only after the fact etc.

All of the things that suddenly went wrong had been going right for years and everybody was fine with it. Betting against your own investments is abhorrent to most people, but quite normal practice in the IB business. Abhorrent or not....it was not illegal.

Blankfein will argue that all of the dirivitive products were traded between "professionals" They knew the risks....nothing illegal there either....and so on.
So what exactly is there to prosecute?

The anger and venting against the banking system is natural and quite understandable. It is not very productive however. If you only listen to one side of any issue, you will never really understand it, and so continue to bark up the empty tree. It would be nice if all the big bad guys at Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan etc could have been just rounded up and sent off to join Bernie Madhoff for a few years, but it's not going to happen because their asses are well covered; so get over it. Courts have to deal with legal issues and not rule on emotional ones.

So you see Ms Kitty, I can admit to being a pragmatist, but I'm no fascist..... I mean if I had written that Hitler was a very good orator, would that make me a Nazi supporter?....

Just pointing out you have called bsnub a Stainist because he wants to see those corporations held accountable for their executive's actions. You state corporations have rights but arent concerned about the right to free speech and lawful assembly. Those protesters were harmless and attacked with pepperspray. The policemen are under investigation for what they did. Doesn't look as though they were "just doing their job" at all to many people.

You say you are being pragmatic but if we look back on ALL of your posts and not one by one, line by line, you are merely protecting the status quo.

Lack of consideration for human rights, protection of corporations, and suppression of labor movements are pretty fascist qualities. I might as well mention obsession with national security also since you imagine terrorists hiding out with protesters.

Why are the peasants complaining jeeves? Well where does one start.

Originally Posted by misskit

Just pointing out you have called bsnub a Stainist because he wants to see those corporations held accountable for their executive's actions. You state corporations have rights but arent concerned about the right to free speech and lawful assembly. Those protesters were harmless and attacked with pepperspray. The policemen are under investigation for what they did. Doesn't look as though they were "just doing their job" at all to many people.

You say you are being pragmatic but if we look back on ALL of your posts and not one by one, line by line, you are merely protecting the status quo.

Lack of consideration for human rights, protection of corporations, and suppression of labor movements are pretty fascist qualities. I might as well mention obsession with national security also since you imagine terrorists hiding out with protesters.

Now I have to put my food down. I was expecting a reasonable and intelligent response and you give me this bullshit..... Come on; surely you can do better.

I am in no way against free speech or lawful assembly and I have stated so over and over.....are you deliberatley being stupid or what? The OWS can have all the speech they want and they can assemble all they want. Occupancy of someone elses property on a semi-permanent basis is NOT lawful...FFS.....which part of this incredibly simple concept don't you understand?

You keep harping on about one cop who used pepper-spray on a bunch of students....OK if the guy over stepped the mark...by all means censure him. The students over stepped too and deliberately provoked a confrontation. They were asked many times to move....and they were warned over and over. Did the other "protesters" get pepper sprayed? NO...because they stayed within the rules.


"Lack of consideration for human rights, protection of corporations, and suppression of labor movements are pretty fascist qualities. I might as well mention obsession with national security also since you imagine terrorists hiding out with protesters."

Now you are just trolling, because the above statement is pure horse-shit.....
Do you even understand the difference between "human rights" and "civil rights"

How am I "protecting corporations" by pointing out why it is difficult to prosecute investment bankers. I never said once that I was against prosecuting them....I just said it was difficult..........why is that such a difficult concept? I also cited examples of successful prosecutions of companies....give me a fucking break.

I never said terrorists were hiding out with protestors....talk about puting words in someones mouth. Go back and read that post again and do try to get it right for once.

Typical left wing bullshit....when your can't reason your way through a debate...start the personal attacks; misquotes; and hide behind all the standard tired old cliches about human rights, supression of the workers blah blah blah....

You don't respond to any of the things I ask. You never explain how you reach your conclusions. You just accuse me of being all kinds of things I'm not because you have no reasoned argument against what I'm trying to say...

I suppose anyone who does not think like a militant, left wing trade unionist is going to seem fascist to you.....

PS I did not even call bsub a Stalinist BTW....if you read it again it was clearly a tongue in cheek analogy. Way over your head unfortunatley....no doubt over bsub's too......

Originally Posted by koman

Occupancy of someone elses property on a semi-permanent basis is NOT lawful...FFS.....which part of this incredibly simple concept don't you understand?

I found a question to answer for you.

Not everyone agrees the protesters should be evicted from private property and fewer agree they should be pushed off of public property. (Did you see the article about the Woolworths strike during the depression?)
Simple concept to you but not all agree with your "establishment" view.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by Agent_Smith

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

2. What one person receives without working for, another person must work for without receiving.

haha, did you blush a little when you typed/pasted this? That's social security pretty much in a nutshell!

Big negativo on that again.

I paid the max into SS every working year from the time I was 18 and now it's time to recoup my money.

The person who's working now to pay me back will be compensated as well.

You want to look at S.S. as an investment. It's not (we've been over this). It's a government mandated socialist scheme that you just happen to benefit from at this time, why not just call a spade a spade?

And if your Republican heroes have their way I won't receive any SS benefits when I retire. You really should thank all those "liberals" from the past that have protected this entitlement program for you, because your buddies on the right would just as soon let you rot otherwise.

The SEC has now charged six Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac executives with fraud.

Finally, the SEC gets serious - Salon.com

Originally Posted by misskit

The SEC has now charged six Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac executives with fraud.

Finally, the SEC gets serious - Salon.com

The SEC should arrest the main enabler of Fannie/Freddie's scams, eh? One Barney Frank who appeard on the House Floor wearing a revealing T-Shirt. America has gone to the dogs...



Nice man-tits, eh?

Originally Posted by misskit

Did I miss something? You asked questions? Looked to me as though you went into long winded essays which not many on this thread agree with.

Yes, I have posed many questions, but I don't get any answers, and I don't expect to because my "long winded essays" are an attempt to state a position, and the rationale behind it. What we get back from you and the rest of the comrades is standard left wing rhetoric....personal insults and ridiculous over simplifications of complex issues. It's tiresome trying to have a sensible debate with people who are so obsessed with an idea that they can not even make an attempt to see another persons point of view.

I'm happy to hear that some execs from those two government owned cesspits Mae and Mac are being charged with fraud. I hope they lock the fuckers up and throw the keys away.....if they can prove the case. I hope also that they can charge and convict a whole range of others too many to mention. It may happen in time, but I have serious doubts. If fraud can be clearly established and proven....fine with me. Now...once again just for the record.....I'm for changing many things in the political and financial systems...........I'm just not in favor of the methods being applied by the OWS people. Is that short and simple enough for you....or do I have to write another long winded essay to explain that as well?...

Originally Posted by koman

...or do I have to write another long winded essay to explain that as well?...

NO! Please don't.

The US could use you over at Gitmo as their newest torture technique.

Originally Posted by koman

Yes, I have posed many questions, but I don't get any answers, and I don't expect to because my "long winded essays" are an attempt to state a position, and the rationale behind it. What we get back from you and the rest of the comrades is standard neo-con rhetoric....personal insults and ridiculous over simplifications of complex issues. It's tiresome trying to have a sensible debate with people who are so obsessed with feces that they can not even make an attempt to see another persons point of view.

just a few quick edits, and you perfectly describe your comrade Boxer!

Besides Boxer's 25 Rules which he employs so predictably, he's also fond of inverting reality, and then projecting his own demonstrated stupidity onto his opponents. "Chutzpah Maneuver" I call it. I think the idea is, the honest/sincere debater/lurker is expected to be blindsided by cognitive dissonance, at the sheer audacity of the attempted deception, so that they're speechless in response.

Between his ad nausium employment of The 25 Rules, and his constant Chutzpah Maneuver attempts- Boxer's brand of "debate/dialog" is hopelessly disingenuous. And here's what Boxer does when he gets OWNED; he whines to mods to gut threads of the evidence!

(permalink)

But here you defend your comrade regardless,

Originally Posted by koman

PS. I'm shocked to hear you put Booners on ignore. He puts so much effort into educating you and your friends about life outside of the warm fog of liberalism.... Never ignore your teachers even if you find yourself in disagreement with them. When you grow up you realize that sometimes the teacher you ignored was right all along....

Incidentally, I notice Boxer & koman's comrade Minnie has been AWOL ever since ahh, the incident:

Originally Posted by HansuMan

Originally Posted by HansuMan

Originally Posted by HansuMan

Problem is Minnie, I'm not seeing your $75 an hour claim which koman then proceeded to make great propaganda hay of- substantiated anywhere in the source which you kindly provided after my request.

Is your $75 an hour claim verified there somewhere, but I'm just not seeing it? Can any able-bodied unskilled/Byzentine-art-major worker who shows up in Dawson Creek willing to work hard, grab a job for $75 an hour? Or is that sort of wage more reserved for degreed/experienced engineers?

$75/hour is about $150K/year. Wikipedia reports of Dawson Creek:

Average male income $49,551
Average female income $30,846

Is there something wrong with the people already living in Dawson Creek, that they're not all making $75/hour AKA $150K/year?

Originally Posted by Minnie Maugham

[...]
I don't lie or muss up the facts, Dear, I'm not a liberal.

I hope you'll substantiate your claim to high honor & integrity, by further obliging my request that you source your $75 an hour claim, Minnie.

Minnie?

Here ~24 hours after my last reminder above, it's looking more and more like Minnie might have employed Boxer's RULE # 20 WRT his $75 an hour claim,

20. False evidence. Whenever possible, introduce new facts or clues designed and manufactured to conflict with opponent presentations as useful tools to neutralize sensitive issues or impede resolution. This works best when the crime was designed with contingencies for the purpose, and the facts cannot be easily separated from the fabrications.

^ I hope that doesn't end of being the situation, coz I was really eager to see the SOURCE of his $75 an hour claim.

But until further notice, it's looking increasingly like after Minnie may have been busted attempting Boxer's Rule # 20^, he/she/it is now resorting to Boxer's RULE # 25?

25. Vanish. If you are a key holder of secrets or otherwise overly illuminated and you think the heat is getting too hot, to avoid the issues, vacate the kitchen.

koman, did you want to retract your former references to Minnie's $75 an hour claim, which you went on to make propaganda hay of in a couple of subsequent posts seeking to marginalize/discredit OWS folks-- now that it's evident that Minnie indeed lied or mussed up the facts, contrary to his self-claims to high honor & integrity?

Originally Posted by HansuMan

koman, did you want to retract your former references to Minnie's $75 an hour claim, which you went on to make propaganda hay of in a couple of subsequent posts seeking to marginalize/discredit OWS folks-- now that it's evident that Minnie indeed lied or mussed up the facts, contrary to his self-claims to high honor & integrity?

What good would that do HS? I can't answer for Minnie or anyone else. The hourly rate mentioned was not really the issue when I responded and quoted Minnie's previous post. The issue was that jobs were available in an area where I know some highly paid work exists (oil and gas) Don't let a few facts get in the way when you can pick up on some little faux pas that you can use to distract from the real discussion.........and accuse others of propaganda.....

BTW.....you forgot to post that video of the collapsing Building 7 again......are you starting to slip?..... Nice colorful posts you got there.....especially the large yellow $75 parts......did you think we might miss something if you just use standard fonts like the rest of us......or is it just a desperate call for attention?....

Originally Posted by misskit

Originally Posted by koman

...or do I have to write another long winded essay to explain that as well?...

NO! Please don't.

The US could use you over at Gitmo as their newest torture technique.

Fair enough. Let's just trade clever one liners then. That seems to be the extent of the left's ability to debate anything... would you like to lead off?....

Originally Posted by HansuMan

^^ Minnie's $75 an hour LIE was 'the juice' which made his/her story compelling- and gave it the 'OWS folks are lazy & insincere' punch which was intended by the post. That's an attractive wage, several multiples higher than average Dawson Creek residents earn. You komen repeated Minnie's juicy $75 an hour LIE 2x in your later replies, keeping in tact & propagating Minnie's LIE.

Don't let a BOLD FACED LIE get in the way when you can try to minimize/dismiss it as 'some little faux pas' that you can use to distract from the real discussion.........so carry on with your/Boxer/Minnie's anti-OWS, Left vs Right propaganda & LIES.....

Bullshit.... It's only juice to you because you choose to make it so. I certainly did not see it that way and never viewed it as particularly important. I still don't think it's important, but apparently you want to keep harping on about it as if it was the uncovering of some great discovery.

So, what is your point exactly? ...Do you know for a fact that there are no $75/hr jobs available in that area? If Minnie had said $30/hr or $25/hr would that make a difference?

Furthermore, there is absolutely no connection between the three posters you name here....just because some of us argue against the OWS does not mean we are in colusion or part of some great right wing conspiricy....and we all know you love conspiricy theories.....

Now, can we please have building 7 falling down again.......you have'nt posted it for hours........

Originally Posted by koman

Bullshit.... It's only juice to you because you choose to make it so. I certainly did not see it that way and never viewed it as particularly important. I still don't think it's important, but apparently you want to keep harping on about it as if it was the uncovering of some great discovery.

Readers can review your claims above, and can then compare for themselves how 'particularly important' you found the $75 an hour LIE. I've changed nothing below but font/color- readers can click the "" buttons to verify:

Originally Posted by koman

I wonder why none of these defenders of freedom and true democracy would not be prepared to accept $75 an hour to work....(see post by Minnie Maughan a bit back) I suppose moving up to a place like Dawson Creek would interfere with their camping, and fixing the global economy....hardly worth it for a mere $75 an hour. Also, I suppose that the kind of work being offered might not be that suitable for someone with a BA in Byzentine art studies....being as you might have to break a sweat once in a while.... We do live in such an unfair world, don't we?..

Originally Posted by koman

He was making a very valid point that your revolutionaries are (at least in Vancouver) out there, howling about all the things are just not up to their expectations, and how deprived they are, but at the same time not one of them apparently was willing to move to the charming metropolis of Dawson Creek for a $75 an hour job.

Also, if you don't wish any perceived connection between Boxer, Minnie & yourself, then don't vouch for Boxer's retarded, sloppy propaganda spew,

Originally Posted by koman
PS. I'm shocked to hear you put Booners on ignore. He puts so much effort into educating you and your friends about life outside of the warm fog of liberalism.... Never ignore your teachers even if you find yourself in disagreement with them. When you grow up you realize that sometimes the teacher you ignored was right all along....

and don't blindly go making big propaganda hay from parroting Minnie's sloppy lies, further puffing up their significance with your own commentary designed to make all OWS folks as bad as possible...

Originally Posted by HansuMan

and don't blindly go making big propaganda hay from parroting Minnie's sloppy lies, further puffing up their significance with your own commentary designed to make all OWS folks as bad as possible...

You did not answer my question. Do you know for a fact that there is NO $75.hr job available in the Dawson Creek trading area? or if Minnie had said $30 or $25/hr would that make a difference to the case? Do you think it would be resonable to expect at least a few of these desperate souls to accept jobs in an area which has lots of job vacancies, or do you feel that they should be entitled to just continue living off the very system that they wish to bring down, even when reasonable opportunities exist elsewhere.?

Oh and one more thing.....the case under discussion was specifically concerned with the occupiers in Vancouver, BC. They were the ones who were allegedly offered jobs in Dawson Creek....so my comments were about them. I'm fairly familiar with Vancouver's full time semi-professional protestors. Most of them would not likely move a city block for a real job, let alone Dawson Creek. That was the point and the substance of the exchange.

Oh and one more thing.....why are you trying to make something out of nothing ...because of my little joke with Kitty the cat about putting Booners on ignore? I though even a complete moron could see that I was kidding around with her......but oh dear I fogot, left wing loonies have no sense of humor.....my mistake.....

Anyhow, it requires no great effort from me to make most of the OWS people look bad.....they are doing a stellar job all by themselves.....with a very few exceptions. I've never said they were all bad.....just misguided, naive and mildly annoying....

Finally; it appears that you have been unsuccessful in dragging any of your other targets into this little pissing contest of yours, so I have humored you with a few responses, but I'm not going to continue wasting time on this non issue. If you want to debate something with substance, that would be fine. It would also be a first, I think...

Originally Posted by koman

You did not answer my question. Do you know for a fact that there is NO $75.hr job available in the Dawson Creek trading area? or if Minnie had said $30 or $25/hr would that make a difference to the case? Do you think it would be resonable to expect at least a few of these desperate souls to accept jobs in an area which has lots of job vacancies, or do you feel that they should be entitled to just continue living off the very system that they wish to bring down, even when reasonable opportunities exist elsewhere.?

I take for granted that there are some $75/hr (~$150K/yr) jobs in the oil/gas industry in Dawson Creek, reserved for degreed/experienced engineers & exec's, as evidenced by my prior question to Minnie before they employed Boxer's Rule 25 (Vanish):

Originally Posted by HansuMan

Is your $75 an hour claim verified there somewhere, but I'm just not seeing it? Can any able-bodied unskilled/Byzentine-art-major worker who shows up in Dawson Creek willing to work hard, grab a job for $75 an hour? Or is that sort of wage more reserved for degreed/experienced engineers?

$75/hour is about $150K/year. Wikipedia reports of Dawson Creek:

Average male income $49,551
Average female income $30,846

Is there something wrong with the people already living in Dawson Creek, that they're not all making $75/hour AKA $150K/year?

... and a reminder that "average income" is distorted upwards coz the sky's the limit above the "average" level - the MEDIAN income is more instructive, AKA the level at which half of workers make more, half make less- the median income is probably a good 1/3 lower than the average for both genders, given that outside of the skilled trades in the town's dominant industry, there is mostly low-paying service work. We both know koman, that is what the "able-bodied unskilled/Byzentine-art-major worker who shows up in Dawson Creek willing to work hard" would be looking at for a job: ~$10/hour service work.

The rest of your spiel- about only referring to to Vancouver OWS folks when disparaging them wholesale based on Minnie's LIE, and that most of them are insincere "with a very few exceptions" - this is Boxer-esque Chutzpah Maneuvering- inverting reality 180 degrees & trying to pass it off as truth. Combine that with your other emotion-tugger Left vs Right Divide & Rule spew (morons, left wing loonies yada yada), and it seems your shtick in this thread is just a more long-winded version of Boxer's. No wonder there are "perceived connections" - different styles, same disingenuous fruit-- readers will naturally tend to make that connection.

Originally Posted by HansuMan

I take for granted that there are some $75/hr (~$150K/yr) jobs in the oil/gas industry in Dawson Creek

Thank you..... So Minnie's statement was not a lie then. It was simply a statement to the effect that jobs with payscales up to and including $75/hr were available, but nobody wanted to apply for any of them, regardless of the hourly rate. Calling anyone out for telling lies is generally not good form....even for a left wing loon, who, when it comes down to it, does not know what the fuck he's talking about.

Now...bugger off and stop wasting my time......like I said, it's not even an issue, so why are you trying to make it into one...

I sure hope that Minnie appreciates my defence......I should be charging at least $300+ an hour for this.....
l

Neat! So we have a few jobs for thousands or millions. Stupid garbage. What a waste of time.