Thread: Russia launches Ukraine invasion

A top Russian general in Ukraine has lashed out at his bosses after being fired from his command, accusing them of undermining the war effort with dishonesty and politicking, in the latest sign of turmoil within the Kremlin’s military leadership.

In a four-minute recording released late Wednesday night, Maj. Gen. Ivan Popov addressed his troops, accusing his superiors of inflicting a blow on his forces by removing him from his post in retaliation for voicing the truth about battlefield problems to senior leadership behind closed doors. His firing, and the unusual public airing of his grievances, reflected the disarray that has roiled Russia’s military command since a failed mutiny three weeks ago.

While the 58th Combined Arms Army he commanded has been holding off a Ukrainian counteroffensive in the Zaporizhzhia region, “we were hit in the rear by our senior commander, who treacherously and vilely decapitated our army at the most difficult and tense moment,” General Popov said — an apparent reference to Gen. Valery V. Gerasimov, chief of the armed forces.

Since the mutiny by the Wagner mercenary group and its boss, Yevgeny V. Prigozhin, several senior officers have been detained or pushed out of their posts, according to a person close to the Russian military, who spoke on condition of anonymity for security reasons.

Speculation has swirled in particular about the fate of Gen. Sergei Surovikin, the head of the air force and a former chief of forces in Ukraine, who hasn’t been seen publicly since the rebellion, and was said this week by a top Russian lawmaker to be “taking a rest.”

The person close to the Russian military said General Surovikin, a Prigozhin ally who reportedly knew in advance of the mutiny, was being detained. In January, the Kremlin removed General Surovikin from overseeing Russian forces in Ukraine and put General Gerasimov in direct control of conducting the war, even as he remains chief of the Russian General Staff, an unconventional conflation of duties for a military at war.

Adding to this week’s upheaval, another top Russian commander in Ukraine, Lt. Gen. Oleg Tsokov, deputy commander of the Southern Military District, was killed in a Ukrainian airstrike on Tuesday in the occupied city of Berdiansk — one of the highest-level Russian losses since the war began.

The recording of General Popov offered an exceedingly rare public glimpse into what a top Russian officer thinks about how President Vladimir V. Putin’s costly war is being waged. Western governments are eager for that kind of intelligence, but U.S. officials say they have limited insight into the views of Russian military leaders or the recriminations against them.

Also murky is the status of Wagner troops and their leader, Mr. Prigozhin — who, as of last week, was reported to be in Russia and roaming free, despite having mounted a rebellion that he said was aimed at removing inept military leaders, not Mr. Putin.

“We’re not even sure where he is and what relationship he has,” President Biden told reporters in Helsinki on Thursday. “If I were he I’d be careful what I ate.”

Until his short-lived uprising, Mr. Prigozhin, a civilian, frequently denounced Russia’s military command publicly, accusing it of incompetence and back-stabbing, which he said led to the insurrection. General Popov’s comments suggest that similar discontent exists high within the uniformed ranks.

But so far there is little indication that the fallout from the mutiny has hurt Russian forces’ ability to defend against the Ukrainian counteroffensive, which began last month and has made only incremental progress.

General Popov said that he ended up in a “difficult situation” with the Russian military’s leadership, in which he had to choose whether he would be a coward, who would tell his superiors only what they wanted to hear, or would “call a spade a spade.” He told his troops he had no right to lie in their name, or in the names of those who had died, and therefore “outlined all the problematic issues that exist in the army in the current day in terms of combat work and support.”

Specifically, he said he had reported the lack of counter-battery and artillery reconnaissance capabilities, and the excessive deaths and injuries that Russian troops were suffering on the battlefield.
“Apparently, in connection with this, the senior commanders felt some kind of danger in me and swiftly, in a single day’s light, concocted an order from the Minister of Defense that removed me from the deployment and got rid of me,” General Popov said.

It wasn’t clear whether he intended his farewell speech to his troops to be made public.

In an interview with state news channel Rossiya 24, Mr. Putin said Thursday that the weapons and tanks the West had supplied to Ukraine weren’t having the desired effect. He reiterated Moscow’s opposition to NATO membership for Ukraine, saying it would pose a security threat to Russia.

It was not immediately clear whether General Popov’s firing was connected to the Wagner uprising, but the removal of a high-level general whose forces appeared to be performing successfully, on one of the most important stretches of the front line, left many Russian observers shocked.

“The removal of Popov is a monstrous act of terrorism against army morale,” the military blogger Roman Saponkov wrote on Telegram, saying that Wagner’s failure had emboldened the Russian military leadership to purge its ranks.

The Telegram channel Rybar, run by the pro-war military blogger Mikhail Zvinchuk, said General Popov enjoys colossal support among the rank-and-file in the Russian military, who found the news of his firing greatly demoralizing.

“The conflict between Popov and Gerasimov highlights the main thing: the absence of unity” in the Russian armed forces, Rybar wrote. “The enemy will surely take advantage of this.”

Alexander Sladkov, a war correspondent for Russian state television, said that General Popov was not an insurrectionist and would most likely reappear in a different position on the front. He warned that the Russian military should be preserving every soldier and general in combat because “we have great trials ahead of us.” General Popov said he was still waiting to hear from military leaders about how he could continue his service.

Tension over the military turmoil was palpable in the Telegram posts of Russian politicians and commentators.

The recording of General Popov was released on social media by Andrei Gurulyov, a lawmaker and former general who once commanded the same 58th Combined Arms Army that General Popov headed.

Andrei Turchak, the secretary general of the ruling United Russia party, assailed Mr. Gurulyov for publicizing the recording. He said on Telegram that the remarks had been private and accused Mr. Gurulyov of “making a political show” of the affair, adding: “The army was and remains outside of politics.”

Oleg Tsaryov, a pro-Moscow former Ukrainian official, once seen by American intelligence officials as a possible puppet leader the Kremlin might try to install in Kyiv, shot back on the same platform: “Andrei Turchak is right, the army should be outside of politics. But politics should also be outside of the army.” He added: “If the system inside the army were really effective, we wouldn’t see more and more spillage on the outside.”

https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/13/w...e-turmoil.html

Originally Posted by bsnub

vatniks.

You post that a lot

What does it mean ?

One of your N-words ?

Originally Posted by helge

What does it mean ?

Are you banned from Google, dumbass?

DIVIDE & CONQUER: By picking widely dispersed points of contact, UKR is making RU deploy units that are not mutually supporting. When conditions are right, UKR can bring superior forces to bear on isolated RU units. Genius, really. It’s also called the ‘rope-a-dope’

^ All very well, but this is just the Russian initial defence line. The main defence line is still some distance away and there are further defence lines beyond. Much will depend on how many Russian troops have been drawn away from those defence lines and whether they will be able to fall back in an orderly manner.

To be honest, I've only seen small success scattered along the front and very little indication of an imminent breakthrough.

Originally Posted by Troy

All very well, but this is just the Russian initial defence line. The main defence line is still some distance away and there are further defence lines beyond. Much will depend on how many Russian troops have been drawn away from those defence lines and whether they will be able to fall back in an orderly manner.

It does not matter how many defense lines there are if there are no soldiers to man them. Recent intel indicates that ruzzian marines are manning the forward most line, a clear sign that they are running out of mobiks because the marines should be farther back on the second or third line. If Ukraine gets to Tokmak the ruzzian line will collapse IMHO. Also, there is the option of fording the Dnipro now if Ukraine chooses to do so, and the fact remains that the majority of Ukraine's assault brigades are not even in the fight yet.

Originally Posted by Troy

To be honest, I've only seen small success scattered along the front and very little indication of an imminent breakthrough.

You also think the ruzzians have a massive advantage in personal as well, which is not the case.

Aleksandr Khodakovsky says Ukrainians are beating Russian positions into mud with longer-range guns which Russians don't have and there is nothing they can do about it.

If you do not know who Aleksandr Khodakovsky is, you can read about him here. The ruzzians are losing massive quantities of artillery pieces in Zaporizhia on a daily basis.

The ruzzian artillery tubes are shot out, they have not been changed since the start of this war. When an artillery tube is shot out, it can no longer fire accurately or over long range.

Originally Posted by bsnub

The ruzzians are losing massive quantities of artillery pieces in Zaporizhia on a daily basis.

Originally Posted by bsnub

The ruzzian artillery tubes are shot out, they have not been changed since the start of this war. When an artillery tube is shot out, it can no longer fire accurately or over long range.

Originally Posted by bsnub

You also think the ruzzians have a massive advantage in personal as well, which is not the case.

Which is possible.

But then the question arises: How come the ukrainians aren't doing any progress against this unmanned gas station ?

Are you by any chance related to Comical Ali ?

Originally Posted by bsnub

mobiks

Another one

BTW: I looked up 'vatnik'.
vatnik



A Russian jingoist and a supporter of Putin's politics. Exhibits stereotypical traits of a Russian jingoist: alcoholism, slovenliness, poverty and unconditional support of any decision of the Russian government.

You got me there

Originally Posted by helge

But then the question arises: How come the ukrainians aren't doing any progress against this unmanned gas station ?

Ukraine has taken more land in the last month than Russia took in the previous six.

Congrats

So you think that it goes according to plan ?

Against the gas station

Originally Posted by pickel

regardless of your short attention span.

Let me help you:

This is a quote fromBSnubs' post; one of 3

Originally Posted by bsnub

You also think the ruzzians have a massive advantage in personal as well, which is not the case.

My naughty answer:

Originally Posted by helge

Which is possible.

But then the question arises: How come the ukrainians aren't doing any progress against this unmanned gas station ?

Your reply:

Originally Posted by pickel

Ukraine has taken more land in the last month than Russia took in the previous six.

Doesn't say much, does it ?

Russia has done nothing more than some retreats, so...

I could have said: Whooosh; but I didn't.

Originally Posted by pickel

If Russia was as mighty as you and some others think they are, they would have made it to the Polish border already.

So how mighty do you think, that I 'think' Russia is ?

I commented on BSnubs' hubris about the strength of Ukraine versus Russia.

You agree with him or perhaps wish it to be true.

Peace with that.


I have my doubts

^
Your "naughty answer" was actually a question, and I answered it. Whoosh away.

Originally Posted by pickel

Your "naughty answer" was actually a question

An answer in form of a question, Pickel

Can't be a first for you, can it ?



And nobody knocked on your door or asked you anything.

Originally Posted by helge

But then the question arises: How come the ukrainians aren't doing any progress against this unmanned gas station ?

The Ukrainian general staff is on record stating that the offensive is not going as fast as they had hoped. The reasons for this are twofold, landmines and artillery. This is being addressed on a daily basis. The battlefield is very busy however due to the fact that there is no embedded press on the front the only way to follow what is going on is via Twitter, Telegram or direct sources.

Originally Posted by bsnub

The reasons for this are twofold, landmines and artillery.

I would add Russian air superiority as a major factor.
If and when the Ukraine gains air superiority there will be little success in reclaiming territory.

Originally Posted by bsnub

The Ukrainian general staff is on record stating that the offensive is not going as fast as they had hoped. The reasons for this are twofold, landmines and artillery. This is being addressed on a daily basis. The battlefield is very busy however due to the fact that there is no embedded press on the front the only way to follow what is going on is via Twitter, Telegram or direct sources.

Makes sense

Originally Posted by Norton

I would add Russian air superiority as a major factor.
If and when the Ukraine gains air superiority there will be little success in reclaiming territory.

Not so much sense

Originally Posted by helge

Not so much sense

Why? As long as Russian forces can call in air strikes Ukranian ground forces are gonna get clobbered.

Originally Posted by Norton

I would add Russian air superiority as a major factor.

Yes, makes sense

Originally Posted by Norton

If and when the Ukraine gains air superiority there will be little success in reclaiming territory.

This only makes sense to me if you are talking about the russians "reclaiming territory".

Nevermind; perhaps I'm reading it wrong

Originally Posted by Norton

Why? As long as Russian forces can call in air strikes Ukranian ground forces are gonna get clobbered.

Ukraine is also doing air strikes on a daily basis. Neither country can hit every front line target at will.

Originally Posted by Norton

If and when the Ukraine gains air superiority there will be little success in reclaiming territory.

I think you phrased that wrong.

Originally Posted by pickel

I think you phrased that wrong.

No doubt. Very early here. Need more coffee.

Originally Posted by pickel

Ukraine is also doing air strikes on a daily basis. Neither country can hit every front line target at will.

True but air to ground strikes on advancing troops more effective than same on dug in defensive troops.