Logical fallacy, try researching the topic. There is no evidence that the death penalty deters anybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Period.
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Logical fallacy, try researching the topic. There is no evidence that the death penalty deters anybody.Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Period.
Is your hobby angling for red herrings?Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollister
Not a valid argument, most murders, like assaults are heat of the moment crimes.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seekingasylum
Premeditated, cold blood killings are rare in comparison, a bar fight can not be counted the same as a killer who plans and executes a crime.
Deterrents sentences work well in some areas, compare bank robberies to street robberies, rob a bank and you will do real time.
Shoplifting to burglary, technically shoplifters who steal with premeditation commit burglary, but the sentencing does not reflect that.
I have already addressed this issue in another post elsewhere but it bears repeating: the statistics show that in comparable sized US states sharing the same demography the murder rate in those with the death penalty is the same or higher than those without the death penalty.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwilly
The issue is well documented and only the obdurate or just plain stupid would argue otherwise.
The Indonesians are a typical S.E.Asian state in that their society is crude, ignorant, largely uneducated, corrupt and hypocritical. Quite how the sanctimonious and priggishly self righteous of the forum could possibly argue these drug couriers deserved their fate beats me.
Just been reading the Brazilian victim was diagnosed as a schizophrenic and manic depressive who was oblivious to his fate until a mere few minutes before his murder.
The rising disgust among the civilised world wil hopefully rebound on those ghastly little savages and their leader Wogadodo. I feel pity for the Balinese who pleaded with the man to cease these murders - ultimately, they will be the long term losers.
I shall never venture there, and if I do meet an Indo in the street I may gave him a clip around his ear.
With sausages ?
Executed Indonesian May Have Been Denied Justice by Clerical Blunder: Supreme Court
A coffin bearing the body of Indonesian drug convict Zainal Abidin is buried in Cilacap on Wednesday. (AFP Photo/Romeo Gacad)
Jakarta. Zainal Abidin, the sole Indonesian among a batch of eight drug offenders executed on Wednesday, may have been denied justice because of a bureaucratic blunder, the Supreme Court has revealed.
On its website, the final court of appeals said on Thursday that the case review that it received from Zainal — and subsequently rejected two days before he was put to death — had been submitted 10 years late.
The Palembang District Court in South Sumatra initially convicted Zainal in August 2001 to 18 years in prison for possession of 58.7 kilograms of marijuana. Prosecutors, who had sought the death penalty on trafficking charges, mounted an appeal with the Palembang High Court, which duly handed down the death sentence less than a month later.
In May 2005, Zainal’s lawyers filed a case review, or PK, a final form of appeal that is heard by the Supreme Court. In keeping with procedure, the case review was filed with the original court hearing the case, which was expected to forward the case to the Supreme Court.
However, the Palembang District Court did nothing with the case for nearly 10 years, until April 8 this year, when it grew increasingly apparent that Zainal would be among the next batch of inmates to be put to death.
“The Supreme Court’s assistant clerk for special crimes did not receive the PK until April 8, 2015,” chief clerk Soeroso Ono said in the statement on the website.
“That means that from May 2, 2005, until April 2015, the case was not in the hands of the Supreme Court clerk. The Supreme Court had less than a week in which to hear the review, from April 21, 2015, when it reached the judges, to April 27, 2015, when the ruling was handed down.”
Soeroso said it was worrying that the Palembang District Court had failed to forward the case to the Supreme Court for nearly a decade, and urged courts across the country to be more meticulous about sticking with judicial procedures.
However, there was no explanation from the Supreme Court for why it had not sought to stay Zainal’s execution, given that his case review was still being heard when prosecutors notified him about the impending execution.
Legal analysts have also expressed concern that the court’s rejection of the case review may have been influenced by the time pressure that the judges were under, and that had the review been heard in 2005, as it was supposed to, the outcome might have been different.
Executed Indonesian May Have Been Denied Justice by Clerical Blunder: Supreme Court - The Jakarta Globe
More likely a done deal no need for review...Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwilly
Why sausages?Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwilly
Seekingasylum, comparing murder rates to places with capital punishment is ludicrous, if it indeed reflected any correlation then capital punishment wins hands down.
Japan has capital punishment and probably the lowest murder rate in the world.
^Perhaps one of the highest suicide rates however.:)
Indonesian Attorney-General Muhammad Prasetyo brushed off Australia's withdrawal of its ambassador as a "temporary reaction", saying the Netherlands and Brazil had done the same when their citizens were executed in January.
^Obviously a case of "don't give a shit.":rofl:
Alternatively why not let the countries who have capital punishment send the charged to court sentence them, and then let the persons country of origin be responsible for the court charges,and time on remand and the country take on the sentence of the convicted.
Would make both sides happy,as long as there sentence is not shortened.
Because nobody wants the duty of cleaning up someone else's dirty work for one. Secondly, the crime was done in a specific country with specific laws pertaining to that country...can't simplify this and say all's well now, you've given your verdicts so now hand the bottom feeding scum over to their native countries so they can issue release forms within the fortnight.
Pretty naive don't you think?
Not if agreements are made, if they renege don't deal with the country again.
I should go further anyone jailed of such offences should have there assets taken away and made to pay for there time in prison.
BS! How can it? Mere retribution nothing more, so the problem remains thanks to the narrow-mindedness of so many.Quote:
Originally Posted by taxexile
Mere twaddle: retribution solves nothing as the problem remains - do try thinking out of the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
You are the one without a brain, many people are emotionally damaged in various ways. Try living in the real world Looper or do you desire to be shot when your marriage breaks up? :)Quote:
Totally irrelevant. Do you have a brain? We are talking specifically about individuals who have committed atrocities because they are emotionally damaged. Putting them out of their misery is an argument in favour of the death penalty.
Not if is expedited within say 12 months.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
Maybe but that doesn't happen very often to say the least.
Not dealt with many victims I guess, closure for families etc is hard when the face of the criminal appears on TV and newspapers for years after the event.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
When they are dead, no appeals, parole boards, no court appearances for crimes while in prison and you will never bump into the criminal on the street in years to come.
Got nothing to do with logic. Threat of resultant death is a very powerful deterrent from doing something. That obviously self-evident truth does not need any kind of evidence.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingwilly
Proves nothing whatsoever since there will be many more variables involved than you are citing. The deterrent effect of execution is so obviously a powerful one that it does not even require any further argumentation or evidence. It is self-evident. Also there is a the pleasure of society's revenge and also we will be putting a deranged psycho out of his misery so it's a win-win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Seekingasylum
Got nothing at all to do with the discussion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
It solves the problem of the justifiable desire for retribution.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
Duh, so we make it happen. Not too bright are you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
You are right that there is a balance between the expectation of being caught and the punishment. You genuinely argue that this creates the differential between say street property crime in thailand and the uk. in the UK the punishments are arguably so small that the people involved do not really care that they run a high risk of being caught multiple times each year and in some cases each day. But would thailand further reduce their street property crime rates if they increased the penalty from several years in jail to death? Did english society collapse into lawlessness as it abandoned the bloody code for the modern system we have now?Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
After all, When you get on a plane to travel somewhere, the reward is you get to go to your destination, the risk is you die in a plane crash.... a very harsh risk for relatively little gain.... do you even think about this risk when you walk through those plane doors... probably not, I don't, as the risk is so vanishingly small that the penalty does not even enter the equation? i recon it would n 1% of flights ended with a crash.
striving for effective policing and enforcement creating that expectation of being caught will always be more effective than punitive sentencing when discoragivge crime. Its no accident that the majority of states who kill drug mules are dysfunctional and corrupt.
have you bothered to even check to see if any of these 'common sense' arguments are correct? Quite a few states in the US have looked at the costs of death sentence are higher than those of life term.. starting with the cost of the trial and carrying on right thought to the end of the sentence.Quote:
All things being equal I think it is only common sense to accept that the death penalty constitutes a significant disincentive when compared with life imprisonment. The problem is that it is very difficult to hold all other factors equal in order to perform a statistically sound analysis.
However criminal disincentivisation is only one apect of the argument. the death penalty could be championed on other grounds.
e.g.
1. Society's and the victim's right to exact revenge upon a particularly severe outrage against the social contract. Society enjoys a sense of fairness so outrageous crime deserves no mercy.
2. A humane approach to the death penalty in the case of the worst cases of torture/rape/murder. i.e. we are putting a deranged and probably emotionally very unhappy and incurable creature out of its misery
3. A fiscal approach. It is far cheaper than life imprisonment.
The other issue is that in using the death sentence the state is denying its self the ability to make restitution in cases of wrongful conviction. And how many states in the US have stopped killing death row prisoners because they have become concerned about just how many prisoners are being exonerated by DNA evidence.
Just how many innocent people has the state killed? and what does that say about the people who think its was right to kill these people because it was cheaper than keeping them alive in jail? just how cheap is a life?
And the death sentence is a kindness because killing deranged people against their will is a kindness. well thats about as good as the 'if i didn't do it, some else would' excuse the people use to justify immoral acts.
Now you believe that revenge is ok, a natural human instinct we should embrace. Its not its up there with envy, malice and greed. It is consuming, destructive and quite possibly as addictive as cocain... given it lights up the same parts the the brain. The determination to put the perpetrator into the position of the victim, with interest. simply turns the victim into the perpetuator and the perpetuator into the victim... a victim who in turn wants revenge. its how blood feuds, wars and insurgencies start. Its too high a price to pay.
Now lets say Im wrong. what just do the innocent get. what if the court review Zainal's case and decide that his death sentence was wrong. Then by not saying the execution the indoneasian president has just murdered someone.... just as the policemen who fired their guns at him intended as they pulled the trigger. What right of revenge does his family have... what justice should they expect.
If one looks at the filipino there are very reasonable ground to believe that she had no idea she was carrying the drugs in her luggage. making her as guilty as the pilot who flew her and the drugs into indonesia. To kill her is murder in its self, what revenge do her family and country have the right to?
After all killing the innocent is murder. what justice do they and their families deserve, because I don not see them getting any. how many judges, jurors, lawyers and placement have ever been punished for their role? and in the absence of that justice does the family have the right to extract revenge?
If, more likely when, they kill that frenchman. should his family believing him with some justification innocent, or even the french state have the right to revenge. Perhaps kill the man who ordered the killing, the man who gave the death sentence, the man who requested it. perhaps take out a couple of their family members as 'interest on the priciple'?
This is where revenge takes you, its why it has no place in the justice system or society in general. The justice system is there to protect society by minimising crime, it is about punishment, protection and redemption. The punishment component should be proportionate with the crime and always provide society with the ability to provide meaningful restitution to the innocents who inevitably get wrongly convicted.
Fortunately for us we have created a system that not only protects us from criminals tearing our societies apart, but also from people like yourself who would want us too organise our societies on the basis of what you would like to work rather than on what actually, demostratbly works.
Revenge and desire for retribution is a reasonable use of the justice system. Its called fairness. If somebody foks you over you want revenge. In the age of the Leviathan you don't take revenge yourself you pursue it through the legal system. Some crimes are so horrific that forfeiting life is a just penalty. The perpetrator does not deserve to enjoy the remainder of their human consciousness timespan. Justice is served and revenge is achieved.Quote:
Originally Posted by hazz
Bullshit: There is no evidence the death penalty deters, read the statistics and the facts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Looper
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
Read the part in bold.Quote:
Got nothing at all to do with the discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
It doesn't, people only imagine it does.Quote:
It solves the problem of the justifiable desire for retribution.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronin
You are the dunce, all your posts ignore all facts and issues that may be associated with a crime. You are merely parroting your own beliefs and are either unwilling or unable to see further. Your phrase 'so we make it happen' confirms this. You cannot make it happen. That much should be obvious from the numerous media reports around the world unless of course you live in a cave.Quote:
Duh, so we make it happen. Not too bright are you.
^^perhaps you should consider why we have the words revenge, punitive, justice and punishment.
And when on occasion the inevitable occasion the state has killed an innocent person for that horrid crime... what revenge are the family of that victim of cold blooded deliberate state sponsored manslaughter?
This is the usual bumf: As I have said before if you execute one criminal another will take his/her place. Consider this: they used to hang people for stealing horses. Why did they stop? Answer: it didn't stop people stealing horses.Quote:
Originally Posted by jamescollister
You are dead right; one of my beefs with the death penalty is, it is only a matter of time before an innocent party is executed. I wonder what some of these here so much in favour would feel the day are about to executed knowing they are innocent?Quote:
Originally Posted by hazz
Ultimately the death penalty achieves nothing.
It cuts down on immigrant trash, Australia is rid of two of um