Bali Executions

I have a couple of points to make against this argument for executing "twisted fcuks that deserve it".

Firstly, from a philosophical viewpoint how can a state that wishes its citizens to be non violent towards eachother offer violence as a punishment. The primary goal of prison should be rehabilitation and the sentence should be for as long as it takes to accomplish this.

Secondly, who decides that someone is so twisted that they cannot be helped and should be put to death. Does this include everyone with mental health issues? Should it be extended to all that cannot look after themselves through mental or physical disability?

A state that kills condones violence and is unable to sit in judgement of others that do likewise.

Just my opinion of course ....

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Originally Posted by Troy

The primary goal of prison should be rehabilitation and the sentence should be for as long as it takes to accomplish this.

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Originally Posted by Troy

is so twisted that they cannot be helped

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So the entire point of the justice system is for the benefit of the poor offender? It has got nothing to do with actually providing 'justice' for the aggrieved party e.g. the family of the tortured and murdered bar-girl?

Are you some kind of jesus-freak who thinks no offence is so great that you cannot turn the other cheek?

I'd say it's about striking a balance betwwen the two.
Offenders don't just need a cuddle, but have to be punished.

The punishment, however, should not make rehabilitation impossible, we don't want to create hardened re-offenders, yet it needs to be proportionate - so that the victims also have a sense of justice being served. That's not to be confused with the eye-for-an-eye revenge mentality, though.

The issue with the Bali executions is, apart from the "Capital Punishment" theme, that it's disproportionate, and applied selectively, see foreigners versus Indo police offenders and connected Indo dealers.
Thus it becomes, regardless of what one's stance about capital punishment - an injustice.

Thought I would chime in with this article -

This is a post by a police officer regarding the hype around the Bali executions and it's something I think more Aussies need to read ................................................. I can’t believe the mentality of people. I have been in law enforcement for 34 years and have worked in many areas within the force. After 9 years in, I spent nearly 5 years working as a UC. (Undercover) attempting to infiltrate traffickers of all types of drugs including amphets right down to simple choof. What a world of pain and misery. I was encased by the filth and self-destruction where I witnessed numerous deaths by either ODs or in a lot of cases suicides. Young girls selling their bodies for 10 bucks a go just to get their hands on their next fix.

I remember one particular girl who hung around with the collection I was trying to set up. She was 14 when she was hooked and on the game by 15. Her body was so ripped and torn by drug and sexual abuse she had intestines falling out of her rectum as a result of numerous rapes and sexual encounters where she tried to get payment. Her child was taken off her when she was 15 by Human services but they could do nothing for her but supply treatment when they could. She died at 19. Alone in a back street. Where were you do-gooders. I saw you pass her on the street and avoid her all the time. I would give her food but she preferred to starve and get some smack rather than eat.

I became depressed with my job after this time and had to eventually get into some other area. I guarantee any police officer who reads this will be thinking of some person they have dealt with in their career that fits this build. But all I see is you fucking wanna be Samaritans who treat these two drug kings as heroes. Ok I accept that you dont believe in the death penalty. I don’t like it either. But I am sure as shit not going to call on the PM to “Bring our boys home” No boy of mine would do this.

The media and the solicitors have played you people for the fools you are. You have never lived in the world of drug, crime and despair. You have been protected from it so much you live in the fantasy world where you believe you can hug everyone and all will be better. You are not qualified to even comment as to whether these guys should get parole or not. Have a look at our system. Or have you forgotten already. Adrian Bayley. You paroled him. You say the parole board stuffed up and parole him. But the parole board consists of people just like you. With your opinions and beliefs. That was a complete and utter failure. This piece of shit was a career rapist and the only ones we can blame for what he did is all of us. Not the judge. Not the Parole board or the police. Us.

The decisions like this that are being made are by people who never have to deal with these shitheads when they are in street mode committing crimes. You see them all clean shaven and in their court suits or white shirts becoming born again etc. You poor misguided fools. You don’t even care about the effects of what they have done to our society. Our penalties used to be tough and crime was low.

When I started in the police force 34 years ago we called it “Marijuana” It was the biggest thing on the street. Crime was not rampant. Then the drug importing began and the addiction, the shift to powders etc and suspended sentences and here we are. Well your system has worked hasn’t it. Then you voice how much you hate police. But you ring us and run inside and hide whilst we come out and deal with the shit you don’t have the fucking guts to deal with yourself. But you are right up there on your keyboards bravely shit canning the police for excessive force and filming it on your cameras.

Here we are in Australia expecting the world to fall at our feet. “Lets boycott Bali. Wow you heroes. That will fix them. Won’t mean shit. You think Australia props up Bali. There are more tourist from Europe than Australia there. And its mostly the bogans one and only overseas holiday destination. Henry Chinn. Know him? Bet not. Well he is on death row in China for trying to smuggle 270 grams of meth into our lovely country in 2004. Have you given a shit about him yet? No. Why? Cos the media hasn’t spoon fed you the crap to hype you up.

Who are the two Aussies who were caught in China in last year trying to cart 75kg of ice to here? Davis and Gardiner. They are a couple. China has executed in excess of 1000 people in a 12 month period. But you still buy their shit every day. You hypocrites. These two Australians will be executed and you will still buy their product. Second chance you say. You think these people have no prior convictions. You think this is their first attempt. Wake up fools. Stop hugging yourselves. Two men died today because they broke a law in a country where they knew they faced death if caught. Had they have got away with it, there would be a countless number of 19 year old girls laying in the gutter dead. Quick run inside and tell yourself what a great person you are.

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Originally Posted by stroller

we don't want to create hardened re-offenders

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Don't think you will have a problem in that regard with the death penalty.

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Originally Posted by stroller

The issue with the Bali executions is, apart from the "Capital Punishment" theme, that it's disproportionate

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Not suggesting it for soft-assed crimes like drug-smuggling. We are talking about psychotic sick torturing fuks who would be better of put out of their misery.

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Originally Posted by Looper

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Originally Posted by Troy

The primary goal of prison should be rehabilitation and the sentence should be for as long as it takes to accomplish this.

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Originally Posted by Troy

is so twisted that they cannot be helped

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So the entire point of the justice system is for the benefit of the poor offender? It has got nothing to do with actually providing 'justice' for the aggrieved party e.g. the family of the tortured and murdered bar-girl?

Are you some kind of jesus-freak who thinks no offence is so great that you cannot turn the other cheek?

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No I am not some kind of Jesus freak and no it is not simply about turning the other cheek and no it is not all for the poor offender.

It is all for the continual existence of a civilised society that attempts to help those in need.

There is no revenge for the injured party and nor should there be. Revenge has no part to play in a justice system.

Looper you got the wrong Guy.:)

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Originally Posted by Looper

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Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

He refuses to answer until you spell his Nic correctly!

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He? You are kidding aren't you HH. Nevema is a girl.

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Originally Posted by Troy

It is all for the continual existence of a civilised society that attempts to help those in need.

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Oh back to the 'poor criminal in need' script. What a joke. What about the victim's family? Do they not 'need' justice also?

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Originally Posted by Troy

Revenge has no part to play in a justice system.

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You do not live in the real world if you do not understand that revenge is a very real and valid human emotion and the justice system is there to serve that emotion.

Do you know the difference between "revenge" and "punishment", Looper?

Punishment is from the perspective of the criminal.

Revenge is from the perspective of the victim.

Both ends can be served by a single act of justice.

UK justice system.

What is the purpose of the criminal justice system?

Consult the official website -[at]www.cjsonline.gov.uk[at]- and you will read the following under the 'aims and objectives' section:

'The purpose of the Criminal Justice System... is to deliver justice for all, by convicting and punishing the guilty and helping them to stop offending, while protecting the innocent.'

Or consider the following, from[at]Working Together to Cut Crime and Deliver Justice, the criminal justice strategic plan published in November 2007:

'The central purpose of the Criminal Justice System is to deliver an efficient, effective, accountable and fair justice process for the public.'

A similar tone was set by the 'Policy Green Paper' published in early March 2008 by the Conservative Party, entitled 'Prisons with a purpose'. Replete with crime control aspirations, the paper observed, in relation to prisons:

'Prisons should reduce crime in three principal ways: by incapacitating offenders, by punishing and thereby deterring others who would commit crimes, and by rehabilitating offenders.'

Nothing about revenge.

- See more at: The purpose of the criminal justice system | Centre for Crime and Justice Studies

Can't green ya right now Chang yai but thanks for your post. Thanks for your service and thanks for being a good cop.

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Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

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Originally Posted by stroller

But, who of the 84% of 1200 were victims of Atlaoui or Gularte's crimes?

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I would consider all Indonesian people victims if what is said about Atlaoui are true.

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Serge Areski Atlaoui - France
The 51-year old was arrested in November 2005 and charged with possessing 138.6 kilogrammes of methamphetamine, 290 kilogrammes of ketamine and 316 drums of precursor at a drug-making factory in Tangerang.

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Is there realy a shortage of welders in Indonesia ?
He didn't know what was going on in the factory ?

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Atlaoui, from Metz, east of Paris, has always maintained his innocence, saying he was only paid to maintain machines in the factory where the drugs were found.
"He was abused. We have always said that he was welding machines in a factory producing acrylic," his lawyer, Richard Sedillot, told French newspaper La Croix.

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How much money was he making at this factory ? Did he have a working permit ?
Or is he maybe responsible for the making of thousands of kilos of drugs.Therefore responsible for the addiction of hundreds of young Indonesian ?
Meaning: Indonesians = Victims

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the only people responsible for addictions is the addicted.

The cocaine and heroine business is estimated to be in the billions of dollars. The addicted people make up a small percentage of that number. So that means, its no different then alcohol. Most people can handle it but there is some mental cases that will get addicted.

Look around Europe. See all the alcohol addicts. Are you lobbying to criminalize alcohol ?

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Originally Posted by kingwilly

Nothing about revenge.

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The problem with 'revenge' is that it is not a nice word.

It has emotionally negative connotations.

It is not likely to feature in politically massaged for public consumption descriptions of justice systems.

I think when you stop to consider the effect of acts of justice on the parties involved (victim, offender, relatives of each, public, judiciary, government) that they effect on the 'victim' party is to achieve some form of redress. Does the word 'redress' work better for you than 'revenge'?

In any case victims go to court to see their tormentor punished. They get pleasure from this. This pleasure is in reality revenge being served and is a function of the justice system even if official descriptions are too polite to make such a bald statement.

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Originally Posted by Storekeeper

Can't green ya right now Chang yai but thanks for your post.

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Got him for you.

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Originally Posted by Looper

Originally Posted by terry57 So today in the local rag our Foreign Minister Julie Bishop has said its time to move on from the executions and rebuild Australia's relationship with Indonesia. That didn't take long All water under the bridge eh!

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As per usual, the Drive By Media, have moved on...from Bali executions to Nepal earthquakes to the birth of yet another Royal child...ain't this great?

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Originally Posted by Looper

In any case victims go to court to see their tormentor punished. They get pleasure from this. This pleasure is in reality revenge being served and is a function of the justice system even if official descriptions are too polite to make such a bald statement.

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Is it a full moon? Is that why your blood lust is so strong at the moment?

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Originally Posted by Looper

In any case victims go to court to see their tormentor punished. They get pleasure from this. This pleasure is in reality revenge being served and is a function of the justice system even if official descriptions are too polite to make such a bald statement.

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The best example of this is in the US, where members of the victim's family can view the execution.

Revenge served may be a function of the justice system, but is it intended to be that way everywhere, I wonder ? Perhaps in some countries like the US, but not other (more civilized) ones ?

Most Aussies apart from the pollies and media do not disagree with the executions, the uproar on social media because the media headlines read "Our boys bodies are home". Fukin media , how dare you call this pair our boys the same as you call our deceased that return from Afghanistan and other theatres of war , There is no comparison between the two , The former are drug dealing scum and the latter are our boys that gave their lives for the country.

Justice ? Depends on who is saying or demanding it :rolleyes:

"Osama Bin Laden is Dead" justice has been done. (President Obama)

As I noted, this make Oz and Aussies look to soft and pathetic.

No offense to Aussies here on the board.

Australia is making a fool out of itself with these "cry-babies."

The departed brought entirely on themselves. They are 100% responsible for what happened.

Yes, and they're 100% responsible for having rehabilitated themselves over the last 10 years, and for having helped numerous other prisoners.

The whole thing was a sordid, pitiable ploy by President Dodo to look more like a strong, forceful politician.

Chang yai, a bit of reality written there, the PC soft cocks live in a different world I guess.
It's a bad world out there, as was mentioned in the story, you do gooders happily walk by the homeless, dying junkie on the street, many of them sentenced to death by their addiction.
You care more for the lives of their dealers and traffickers.
I personally couldn't give a toss if they started hanging drug traffickers from street light poles.

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Originally Posted by Looper

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Originally Posted by Troy

It is all for the continual existence of a civilised society that attempts to help those in need.

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Oh back to the 'poor criminal in need' script. What a joke. What about the victim's family? Do they not 'need' justice also?

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Not at all. Society should be protected by the imprisonment of the offender; the offender should be helped by rehabilitation and the victim should be helped with whatever assistance maybe necessary. There is no redress / retribution / revenge necessary.

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Originally Posted by Looper

You do not live in the real world if you do not understand that revenge is a very real and valid human emotion and the justice system is there to serve that emotion.

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I am well aware of the fact that revenge is a real emotion. I am also well aware of the fact that Justice should be seen as wholly rational and devoid of that emotion.

Perhaps it is the seeking of revenge rather than justice and the incarceration rather than rehabilitation that makes the punishment system in many Countries so utterly useless.

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Originally Posted by Troy

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Originally Posted by Looper

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Originally Posted by Troy

It is all for the continual existence of a civilised society that attempts to help those in need.

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Oh back to the 'poor criminal in need' script. What a joke. What about the victim's family? Do they not 'need' justice also?

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Not at all. Society should be protected by the imprisonment of the offender; the offender should be helped by rehabilitation and the victim should be helped with whatever assistance maybe necessary. There is no redress / retribution / revenge necessary.

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Originally Posted by Looper

You do not live in the real world if you do not understand that revenge is a very real and valid human emotion and the justice system is there to serve that emotion.

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I am well aware of the fact that revenge is a real emotion. I am also well aware of the fact that Justice should be seen as wholly rational and devoid of that emotion.

Perhaps it is the seeking of revenge rather than justice and the incarceration rather than rehabilitation that makes the punishment system in many Countries so utterly useless.

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How do you tell when a rapist or murderer has been "rehabilitated"??