Thread: Greek PM concedes election defeat

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Is that not the nature of capitalism, you risk your capital for a return.
If you invest in a company and it goes broke, should the employees or the directors be held responsible.
Your way of thinking means the sub prime melt down was caused by poor people getting mortgages, not by banks trying to make massive profits.

I understand what you are trying to say. Nevertheless, there has be a system of lending and by attributing blame to the banks you seem to be saying that there should be no such thing as lending. You offer no alternative to the present system and if we get rid of the banks we cannot exist.

I just want a hint of realism here. There is absolutely no point in blaming anybody in the absence of a better way of managing the economy.

This is a nice sensible article. I agree with Mr Carney and the IMF but feel angry that the Greeks will be allowed to get away with what is essentially theft. Progress has to be made and at least part of the debt written off or the whole of it by Grexit.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33527052

Greece should never have entered the EEU, they have been thoroughly bad members and the rest of Europe would be better off without them. Yes, the rest of Europe is important too. Other human beings count and this is not all about the Greeks.

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

DO NOT LEND GREECE ANY MORE MONEY _ THEY CANNOT PAY IT BACK!!!

Funny how the Ukrainian nazi scum pushed into power by the US in their coup there were told by the IMF "heh, we know you can not pay it back, but no worries, have as much cash as you like".

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Simply trying for that utopian socialist dream world where money grows on trees.

If your are a big bank money does grow on trees and if the trees catch fire, the taxpayers will cover your loses with interest.

Private banks are there for profit and should not be covered by taxpayers, the west is a private banking system, they should sink or swim on their own merits.

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

Quite right too. Who's the stupid one???

So, for the Brits to say no is ok . . . for the Germans to do the same is akin to a Fourth Reich taking over Europe while jackboot-stomping little, defenseless, blameless nations

Your anti-German rhetoric is making you sound the fool here, BB

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

The Greeks should never have been lent money, and they should not, NOT, be lent any more money.

The country would have sunk, people would have starved to death and chaos would have occurred.

Nice world you propose

Originally Posted by jamescollister

If you invest in a company and it goes broke, should the employees or the directors be held responsible.

Of curse the directors should . . . and of they were directors voted in by the employees then they should as well - what on earth makes you think it should be otehrwise?

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

This is what the propaganda from the scaremongers would have you believe

Nope, this is reality. Just explain to me how, on both macro and micro-economic levels, supermarket shelves would have filled up with goods . . . from where? Paid for by what?

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

they said the same about Iceland...

No, they didn't

The economy is far worse off now than it was before the first bailout - economy shrinking, high unemployment, etc.

There is no end of explications and detailing of this on the internet; if you choose to stick your neck in the uber-sand that's your choice...

Loan repayments pilled up at rates that can NEVER be repaid (exactly as the IMF and the world's leading economists are and have been saying...) are what is destroying Greece.

Here are some comments and links to get you started:

An estimated 90 percent of bailout funds have gone to financial institutions – not to help Greek residents

So where did all that money from Greece’s first two rescue packages go? Back to creditors, mostly.
“This is a giant creditor-debtor standoff,” said Mark Blyth, a professor of political economy at Brown University and the author of “Austerity: The History of a Dangerous Idea.” “The creditors have been made whole.”

Greek economics writer Yannis Mouzakis calculated that close to 11 percent of the funds, or 27 billion euros, went to the government’s “operational needs,” significantly less than was spent on maturing debt obligations (81.3 billion euros) and recapitalizing Greek banks (48.2 billion euros).
Greek Bailout Money Went to Banks, Not Greece | Al Jazeera America



Only a small fraction of the €240bn (£170bn) total bailout money Greece received in 2010 and 2012 found its way into the government’s coffers to soften the blow of the 2008 financial crash and fund reform programmes. Most of the money went to the banks that lent Greece funds before the crash.

The troika of lenders first stepped in during the spring of 2010 after Athens could no longer afford to finance €310bn borrowed from a wide range of major European banks.

€140bn has been spent on paying the original debts and interest. Less than 10% of the bailout money was left to be used by the government for reforming its economy and safeguarding weaker members of society.
Where did the Greek bailout money go? | World news | The Guardian


Greece's champions, including Nobel-winning economists Paul Krugman and Joseph Stiglitz, have said repeatedly that the Greek bailouts favored foreign lenders. "We should be clear: Almost none of the huge amount of money loaned to Greece has actually gone there," Stiglitz wrote in a recent column. "It has gone to pay out private-sector creditors – including German and French banks. Greece has gotten but a pittance, but it has paid a high price to preserve these countries' banking systems."

A lot of the money from the two Greek bailouts went to banks, including local ones and the subsidiaries of foreign banks operating in Greece. Yet lenders are now the weakest link in the Greek economy. The European Central Bank has only to reduce liquidity assistance or demand more collateral, and the country's financial system will run out of euros. So what happened to all that bailout money?

In reality, it's not hard to figure out how much money foreign banks pulled out, and how much they lost, in the course of the two bailouts. According to data from the Bank of International Settlements, at the end of 2009, total international claims on Greece stood at $177.9 billion, $96.6 billion of it on the public sector (those were investments in Greece's already swollen government debt). By the end of 2011, before the second bailout and Greece's big debt restructuring, international claims were down to $73.3 billion, $40.8 billion of it on the public sector. This means that the first bailout, agreed in May 2010 -- 110 billion euros ($120 billion) from the European Union and the International Monetary Fund -- did indeed help foreign banks reduce their exposure to Greek public-sector debt, by $55.8 billion.
How Greece's[at]Bank Bailout Benefited Greeks - Bloomberg View


It's not difficult to follow the money trail if you decide to stop slopping up the propaganda... The banks gave themselves money and are asking for the Greek taxpayer to pay it back. The same as happened in the UK and US.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Simply trying for that utopian socialist dream world where money grows on trees...dancing unicorns in the fields and campfire singing kumbaya dreamers in positions of 'responsibility'...

It sounds like a Kochite paradise.

The IMF is a "global group"


Here's a list of world wide banks owned by the Rothschilds (many by proxy obviously)

Afghanistan: Bank of Afghanistan
Albania: Bank of Albania
Algeria: Bank of Algeria
Argentina: Central Bank of Argentina
Armenia: Central Bank of Armenia
Aruba: Central Bank of Aruba
Australia: Reserve Bank of Australia
Austria: Austrian National Bank
Azerbaijan: Central Bank of Azerbaijan Republic
Bahamas: Central Bank of The Bahamas
Bahrain: Central Bank of Bahrain
Bangladesh: Bangladesh Bank
Barbados: Central Bank of Barbados
Belarus: National Bank of the Republic of Belarus
Belgium: National Bank of Belgium
Belize: Central Bank of Belize
Benin: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
Bermuda: Bermuda Monetary Authority
Bhutan: Royal Monetary Authority of Bhutan
Bolivia: Central Bank of Bolivia
Bosnia: Central Bank of Bosnia and Herzegovina
Botswana: Bank of Botswana
Brazil: Central Bank of Brazil
Bulgaria: Bulgarian National Bank
Burkina Faso: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
Burundi: Bank of the Republic of Burundi
Cambodia: National Bank of Cambodia
Came Roon: Bank of Central African States
Canada: Bank of Canada – Banque du Canada
Cayman Islands: Cayman Islands Monetary Authority
Central African Republic: Bank of Central African States
Chad: Bank of Central African States
Chile: Central Bank of Chile
China: The People’s Bank of China
Colombia: Bank of the Republic
Comoros: Central Bank of Comoros
Congo: Bank of Central African States
Costa Rica: Central Bank of Costa Rica
Côte d’Ivoire: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
Croatia: Croatian National Bank
Cuba: Central Bank of Cuba
Cyprus: Central Bank of Cyprus
Czech Republic: Czech National Bank
Denmark: National Bank of Denmark
Dominican Republic: Central Bank of the Dominican Republic
East Caribbean area: Eastern Caribbean Central Bank
Ecuador: Central Bank of Ecuador
Egypt: Central Bank of Egypt
El Salvador: Central Reserve Bank of El Salvador
Equatorial Guinea: Bank of Central African States
Estonia: Bank of Estonia
Ethiopia: National Bank of Ethiopia
European Union: European Central Bank
Fiji: Reserve Bank of Fiji
Finland: Bank of Finland
France: Bank of France
Gabon: Bank of Central African States
The Gambia: Central Bank of The Gambia
Georgia: National Bank of Georgia
Germany: Deutsche Bundesbank
Ghana: Bank of Ghana
Greece: Bank of Greece
Guatemala: Bank of Guatemala
Guinea Bissau: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
Guyana: Bank of Guyana
Haiti: Central Bank of Haiti
Honduras: Central Bank of Honduras
Hong Kong: Hong Kong Monetary Authority
Hungary: Magyar Nemzeti Bank
Iceland: Central Bank of Iceland
India: Reserve Bank of India
Indonesia: Bank Indonesia
Iran: The Central Bank of the Islamic Republic of Iran
Iraq: Central Bank of Iraq
Ireland: Central Bank and Financial Services Authority of Ireland
Israel: Bank of Israel
Italy: Bank of Italy
Jamaica: Bank of Jamaica
Japan: Bank of Japan
Jordan: Central Bank of Jordan
Kazakhstan: National Bank of Kazakhstan
Kenya: Central Bank of Kenya
Korea: Bank of Korea
Kuwait: Central Bank of Kuwait
Kyrgyzstan: National Bank of the Kyrgyz Republic
Latvia: Bank of Latvia
Lebanon: Central Bank of Lebanon
Lesotho: Central Bank of Lesotho
Libya: Central Bank of Libya
Uruguay: Central Bank of Uruguay
Lithuania: Bank of Lithuania
Luxembourg: Central Bank of Luxembourg
Macao: Monetary Authority of Macao
Macedonia: National Bank of the Republic of Macedonia
Madagascar: Central Bank of Madagascar
Malawi: Reserve Bank of Malawi
Malaysia: Central Bank of Malaysia
Mali: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
Malta: Central Bank of Malta
Mauritius: Bank of Mauritius
Mexico: Bank of Mexico
Moldova: National Bank of Moldova
Mongolia: Bank of Mongolia
Montenegro: Central Bank of Montenegro
Morocco: Bank of Morocco
Mozambique: Bank of Mozambique
Namibia: Bank of Namibia
Nepal: Central Bank of Nepal
Netherlands: Netherlands Bank
Netherlands Antilles: Bank of the Netherlands Antilles
New Zealand: Reserve Bank of New Zealand
Nicaragua: Central Bank of Nicaragua
Niger: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
Nigeria: Central Bank of Nigeria
Norway: Central Bank of Norway
Oman: Central Bank of Oman
Pakistan: State Bank of Pakistan
Papua New Guinea: Bank of Papua New Guinea
Paraguay: Central Bank of Paraguay
Peru: Central Reserve Bank of Peru
Philip Pines: Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas
Poland: National Bank of Poland
Portugal: Bank of Portugal
Qatar: Qatar Central Bank
Romania: National Bank of Romania
Russia: Central Bank of Russia
Rwanda: National Bank of Rwanda
San Marino: Central Bank of the Republic of San Marino
Samoa: Central Bank of Samoa
Saudi Arabia: Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency
Senegal: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
Serbia: National Bank of Serbia
Seychelles: Central Bank of Seychelles
Sierra Leone: Bank of Sierra Leone
Singapore: Monetary Authority of Singapore
Slovakia: National Bank of Slovakia
Slovenia: Bank of Slovenia
Solomon Islands: Central Bank of Solomon Islands
South Africa: South African Reserve Bank
Spain: Bank of Spain
Sri Lanka: Central Bank of Sri Lanka
Sudan: Bank of Sudan
Surinam: Central Bank of Suriname
Swaziland: The Central Bank of Swaziland
Sweden: Sveriges Riksbank
Switzerland: Swiss National Bank
Tajikistan: National Bank of Tajikistan
Tanzania: Bank of Tanzania
Thailand: Bank of Thailand
Togo: Central Bank of West African States (BCEAO)
Tonga: National Reserve Bank of Tonga
Trinidad and Tobago: Central Bank of Trinidad and Tobago
Tunisia: Central Bank of Tunisia
Turkey: Central Bank of the Republic of Turkey
Uganda: Bank of Uganda
Ukraine: National Bank of Ukraine
United Arab Emirates: Central Bank of United Arab Emirates
United Kingdom: Bank of England
United States: Federal Reserve, Federal Reserve Bank of New York
Vanuatu: Reserve Bank of Vanuatu
Venezuela: Central Bank of Venezuela
Vietnam: The State Bank of Vietnam
Yemen: Central Bank of Yemen
Zambia: Bank of Zambia
Zimbabwe: Reserve Bank of Zimbabwe

Greece should call bankruptcy and go back to the Drachma.

End of.

Tsipras would seem to be a turncoat.

Originally Posted by Dapper

Greece should call bankruptcy and go back to the Drachma.

End of.

Tsipras would seem to be a turncoat.

Controlled opposition in just the same way that Suthep was in Thailand, coming out of the woodwork and coercing the genuine protests to the loving arms of the military.

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

The banks gave themselves money and are asking for the Greek taxpayer to pay it back. The same as happened in the UK and US.

Yup. Succinctly put. But do not underestimate the revenge of Shylock- and this is why the sober minded are reticent to incure their collective wrath.

Yet, to the vast majority of the people of this world (outside of the US/Euro axis), the IMF represents little more than a punishment agency. It throws money at you when money is cheap, then ushers in foreign creditors to buy you up at a discount, after the shit inevitably hits the fan. And of course, the banks never take the loss for their own lending practises, at a macro level. In this modern era. It is pretty clear where the ultimate Power lies- namely with those that have the imprimatur to create their own money, print their own currency. And they are debasing the currency.

The IMF is no longer a monopoly folks. Born with noble intentions, it has recently only caused more damage than good. (if u don't believe Greece & Thailand, just wait for the Ukraine). It's current format belongs in the same grave as Milton Friedman. Get with the Chinese infrastructure bank, if you're sensible.

Originally Posted by sabang

Get with the Chinese infrastructure bank, if you're sensible.

As one Chinese leader, nearly, said some time ago. "It's too early to judge if it will be a successful bank".

But yes, it seems increasingly hard to see it being any worse than what is now forced on people.

I guess we can all agree that "WE" are getting screwed by our brainless politicians.

The EC is proposing to "use" an EU fund to "assist" the EZ. The UK is "furious" and doesn't agree on the use of the fund for this purpose. Is a "referendum" to be held by the UK population?

Brussels proposes using EU-wide rescue fund to help Greece - FT.com

"The European Commission has submitted a formal proposal to use an EU-wide rescue fund to rush aid to Greece to ensure Athens does not default on €7bn it owes on Monday, a proposal that will require Britain to rally allies if it wants to block it."

"

Even the formal attempt by Brussels to use this fund is a big political setback. Mr Cameron has trumpeted securing a "black and white" promise in 2011 that the fund would be mothballed so British taxpayers would not be part of eurozone bailouts
The EU-wide EFSM was set up at the onset of the eurozone crisis with €60bn in lending capacity. When the eurozone moved to set up a new, permanent rescue fund for the currency union’s 19 members, Mr Cameron won agreement at an EU summit that the EFSM would never be used again for eurozone rescues."

Camermon and Osbourne the crackhead don't give a flying fuck if the UK tax payer has to fork out a load of cash. Their only job is to asset strip what is left of the UK, and get the country in as much debt to private banks as possible. Same as Bliar, Brown etc.

^ blimey, looks like after bailing out the British banks we're now gonna bail out the German and French banks - that's federalism for you...

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

^ blimey, looks like after bailing out the British banks we're now gonna bail out the German and French banks - that's federalism for you...

INdeed. If the greeks "default" on the loan that never existed of the money that never existed that was created by tapping the numbers into a computer screen..... Deutsche Bank would be dust. Well, it wouldn't be because everyone with a bank account in the UK and Europe with a balance under a few grand (because only the poor would have to pay) would have half their balance cut and given to them.

James Brown wrote a song about it, no?

This is a bankster's world
This is a bankster's world
But they would be nothing, nothing
Without the complicity of corrupt governments.

[Verse 1:]
You see, man made the car
To take us over the road
Man made the train
To carry the heavy load
Man made the electrolight
To take us out of the dark
Then along came the Banksters
And stole the bloody lot with sleight of hand and pushing man into debt slavery.

This is a bankster's world
This is a bankster's world
But they would be nothing, nothing
Without the complicity of corrupt governments.


[Verse 2:]
Man thinks about a little bit of baby girls and a baby boys
Man make them happy
'Cause man make them toys
And after man make everything
Everything he can
But the banksters and politicians like to fiddle with them
And use corrupt courts and police to get away with it or blackmail the politicians with.

This is a bankster's world
This is a bankster's world
But they would be nothing, nothing
Without the complicity of corrupt governments.

Some snippets from the BBC website:
Greece vote: Reaction and updates - BBC News

Gabriel Sterne, an economist and head of Global Macro Research at Oxford Economics, reminds us this deal still has to get through the German parliament. Even if it does get approval, it could still fail. Mr Sterne says points out that IMF analysis shows the plan "really wont work." Greek GDP could sink a further 5%, he thinks. "There will have to be outright transfers" of money to Greece, he says.


Worrying quote from Tsipras: "The government does not believe in these measures."How on earth is he then going to implement them?


vote followed a surreal but swift process during which everyone who voted for the measures spoke against them, incl. the PM

This scumbag needs shooting. A typical example of the Euro-cronies who work for the banks, not the people of Europe.

The combative German finance minister, Wolfgang Schaeuble has been speaking to German radio. He says that debt forgiveness is "not possible" while inside the euro. But he also says that it is unclear how to restore Greece's finances without some kind of reduction in debt. That's reported by Bloomberg news this morning. Earlier this week the IMF said that Greece's debt was "highly unsustainable" and needed a reduction.
Greece vote: Reaction and updates - BBC News


We could look back at German history and see if there are any parallels...

No problem for the UK taxpayers the Europeans have an answer.

"In order to mitigate this, the EU will look to insure non-euro nations against losses on the bridge loan by pledging certain collateral as a guarantee. Here's FT again:

One compromise EU officials are discussing involves indemnifying non-euro countries from any losses from the loans to Greece. It is not yet clear whether the move would be legally feasible and whether pledging collateral would be politically acceptable to eurozone countries.

And here is the punchline:

As collateral, the eurozone could pledge the €3.6bn in profits from Greek bonds owned by the ECB.

So Europe will pledge profits from the ECB's Greek debt holdings as collateral for a loan to Greece that will be used to make a payment to the ECB for the very same Greek debt holdings."


Sounds like a good plan eh?

Originally Posted by OhOh

pledge the €3.6bn in profits from Greek bonds owned by the ECB.

LOL what profit? They will default sooner or later. Just a ruse to suck more cash into the pot.