Thread: Greek PM concedes election defeat

But the Greek people have been lied to by successive governments due to the cooking of the books, hence now people know the truth the support for the main parties who have always held power has crumbled.

Given that a major motivator for not paying their taxes was the venal and currupt nature of their governments.... I think you can safely say they were more aware of the problem than anyone else.

They failed to deal with this at the ballot box, and when changes were forced upon them, they voted out the government half hearty implementing those changes and installed one that promised to make the whole problem disapear because greek was too big to fail so they could do what they wanted and the eurozone would have to go along with it

With freedoms come responcibilities and duties. When you exercise your right to vote, you are responsible for the actions of the people you vote for.... its something your supposed to remember and think about before you put the mark on the paper.

Really, the greek people see the truth? they voted out the last government because someone promised to make the problems disappear and make greece rich again without giving any convincing explanation of how he could do this beyond the greece is too big to fail... so we can do what we want and the eurozone will accommodate us and take on the costs. That didn't work, and the result is their economy has stalled... its going to cost the greeks and the eurozone a fortune for fix. I guess the greek voters bare not responsibility for that either.

^sweet, you accusing me of denigrating people... by denigrating me. you should go look at your self in the mirror. please explain why suggesting that people are demotivated to pay their taxes to a corrupt, venal government is suggesting they are less than human? do you really belive that it has no effect on people attitudes to paying tax?

you are guilty of starting with the answer (the greeks are innocent victims of the banks) and then using every trick in the book to blind yourself to anything that might suggest otherwise. I must say boo, since you read those books on framing and propaganda you have demonstrated an suprising ability to apply them to yourself, seriously.

There is plenty of blame to be spread around, nobody is blameless. And as gatekeepers to power in greece the greek electorate have a lot of responsibility to take for what has happened and what is happening.... And dispite your fixation, its not just the banks.

Hazz, you are just an arguer, and not a very good one at that. Folks on threads post endless links to facts and figures and information, and all you do is offer idle anecdotes and argue from a position of ignorance... When you read a post you don't read for information, you read for an angle to argue - that's why it's pointless engaging with you. You have been proven wrong time after time, are you still supporting the PADites and army to make great changes to benefit the nation? You are kinda lke sausageman, but you can't spell or use punctuation - at least he is a mildly amusing parody of an old cliche...

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

You are kinda lke sausageman, but you can't spell or use punctuation - at least he is a mildly amusing parody of an old cliche...

Says the man who fails his punctuation test in every post he makes

Think the big picture is getting lost in the propaganda, real details of the deal are scarce so we don't know the facts.
So far, from what I have read, most of the Greek debt, the ECB part will be written off as the New Greek central bank is the ECB, it will be paying it's self.
Greece will have as much say on monetary policy as Nevada has on the Fed. nothing.
The ECB will control all Greek banking and monetary system, now comes the question, was that the plan from the beginning.

Other EU nations are in a similar boat to Greece, if Greece now prospers under the ECB central bank system, will others give up monetary independence and opt for an EU central banking system, united states of Europe.
Federation by stealth, first Greece, then a few of the poorer new members, then Spain or Italy.
The USE is born.

Boo more strawman arguments, denigration and now projection.

I am still curious as how I was denigrating the people of greece and diving down into the depths of biggotism by daring to suggest that greece has an issue with tax evasion and that this might be related to people not being too enthusiastic at paying tax to a currupt venal government.

You might not agree or like what I say, but you are wrong in assuming that this is all that is necessary to prove I am wrong.
I am certainly not entirely correct, but I am a hell of a lot closer to reaility by suggesting that there is a lot more to this crisis than 'the banks' than you are with your its all the fault of the banks.

I mean its not like 'the banks' exist. its not like they are some monolithic cartel or conspiricy. Goldmans involvement in this is very different to that of the french and german banks that the eurozone bailed out.
This is a complex mess and there are no simple solutions. the greek pm and the other leaders of the eurozone have proved that. Its a shame that so many are still chasing the idea's of criminals, vicitims, evil vs good, the grand conspiracy.

It is rather telling that after two bail outs, multiple governments and elections. the greek people and their political representatives have yet to carry out a remedial task as simple and uncontroversial as depoliticizing and granting independence to ELSTAT. the politicization of which has been central to creating this mess... its suffently importent that this act is now part of that eurozone package of 'blackmail' the greek parliament has to pass by tomorrow. item 5 on the list I believe. This should have taken place before the firts bail out, and we are how many years down the road? and the only reason for not doing this, is so that the greek government can continue to tell those little white lies... there is absolutly no other reason

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Think the big picture is getting lost in the propaganda, real details of the deal are scarce so we don't know the facts.
So far, from what I have read, most of the Greek debt, the ECB part will be written off as the New Greek central bank is the ECB, it will be paying it's self.

I haven't read anywhere that most of the Greek debt will be written off. Where did you read that, Jim?

given that with time over which the repayments will be made, the low to zero effectiev interest rates, inflation and the future growth of the greek echonomy the debt to gdp ratio will necessary drop. as will the value of the total money paid back compared to the value of the debt today.

Its that kind of invisible haircut that you can call refusing to accept a haircut. spin for northern European politicians to sell the writeoff to their voters.

Originally Posted by hazz

I mean its not like 'the banks' exist.

Originally Posted by hazz

I mean its not like 'the banks' exist.

Originally Posted by hazz

the french and german banks that the eurozone bailed out.

Seems like you found them in the next sentence...

Originally Posted by Neverna

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Think the big picture is getting lost in the propaganda, real details of the deal are scarce so we don't know the facts.
So far, from what I have read, most of the Greek debt, the ECB part will be written off as the New Greek central bank is the ECB, it will be paying it's self.

I haven't read anywhere that most of the Greek debt will be written off. Where did you read that, Jim?

Not read it anywhere, just logic, ECB will now be Greece's central bank, it's a nations central bank that pays out international debt, ergo the bank, in Greece's case a 65% private owned central bank has been taken over by the ECB and it's debts are now owned by the ECB.
Most of the debt/interest is to the ECB, so the ECB will be paying it's self, if the Greeks don't have the readies from taxes etc the ECB can't really say we will take action against ourselves.
Remember the Greek central bank is/was private, monies loaned to a private central bank, which then loaned it to the Greek Government.

Creative bookkeeping will be the name off the game, Greece will look good on paper, debt payments will appear to be made.
ECB has to save the day, no matter the cost.

I'm not sure about that, James...

Will the Greek taxpayer by paying the ECB? If the taxpayer is paying back the loan, and the ECB does indeed now own the Greek Central bank then an asset has been seized and the debt is still be payed off. I don't see how that can be interpreted as the load has been written off???

Originally Posted by Neverna

I haven't read anywhere that most of the Greek debt will be written off. Where did you read that, Jim?

Formally it won't. But payback of loans will be delayed to never, other label same effect. Interest free loans will be worth little in 40 years. Then Greece will pay them back, assuming their economic situation has improved. That's quite an assumption though.

From what I've read, Greece will have assets worth 50 billion or so put in a trust type thing (I forget the exact wording) and those assets will be/may be privatised (i.e. sold) to pay off some of Greece's debts.

Boo this is is a perfect example of the self deception your perpetrating on yourself. You read my post and your brain started careful cherry picking and framing of what I posted, to ensure that what I say, fits in with what you wanted me to say.

Thats why when I posted

Originally Posted by hazz

I mean its not like 'the banks' exist. its not like they are some monolithic cartel or conspiricy. Goldmans involvement in this is very different to that of the french and german banks that the eurozone bailed out.

all your brain filters would let you see was

Originally Posted by hazz

I mean its not like 'the banks' exist.

Originally Posted by hazz

the french and german banks that the eurozone bailed out.

That missing bit inbetween your quoted extracts puts rather different meaning to what you wanted me to say, another boonerism to go with posting mem images

Originally Posted by Neverna

From what I've read, Greece will have assets worth 50 billion or so put in a trust type thing (I forget the exact wording) and those assets will be/may be privatised (i.e. sold) to pay off some of Greece's debts.

Its convoluted english. but from my understanding. the banks will be recapitalized with cash given to them in exchange for these billions of assets being handed over. These assets will be held by a greek administered trust, under EU supervision. which will sell them and the case released will be split 50:50 between the greek government and the creditors.


greek administered trust, under EU supervision. is the fudge. It allows the greeks to not privatize anything by simply not doing anything, whilst allowing the northern eu states to tell their electorate its being done.

Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.

"The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests." The Rothschild brothers of London writing to associates in New York, 1863.


Say it all really.

Surprised the blinkered haven't been along yet James to give you a Tin foil hat.

Posting supposed conspiracy theories is dangerous here.

Next thing we'll be calling it the new world order.....

Originally Posted by jamescollister

Let me issue and control a nation's money and I care not who writes the laws." Mayer Amschel Rothschild (1744-1812), founder of the House of Rothschild.

"The few who understand the system will either be so interested in its profits or be so dependent upon its favours that there will be no opposition from that class, while on the other hand, the great body of people, mentally incapable of comprehending the tremendous advantage that capital derives from the system, will bear its burdens without complaint, and perhaps without even suspecting that the system is inimical to their interests." The Rothschild brothers of London writing to associates in New York, 1863.


Say it all really.

If one accepts this in its entirety it should be relatively simple to put forward an alternative to capitalism. I must be very stupid because that which is blindingly obvious to others passes me by. So, I would be grateful for guidance on this matter. I have studied Messrs Marx and Engels and would expect those who know the answer to use their own words and not quote either of these two gentlemen.

So far we have had lots of grizzling and pontificating but nobody has come up with concrete proposals to change our world.

Not relevant to Jim's post but "payed" is what somebody did when they loosened a rope.

Originally Posted by can123

I must be very stupid because that which is blindingly obvious to others passes me by.

You said it...

So, I would be grateful for guidance on this matter. I have studied Messrs Marx and Engels and would expect those who know the answer to use their own words and not quote either of these two gentlemen.

Perhaps there are contemporary thinkers as well as the historical ones you've rejected?

Originally Posted by stroller

Perhaps there are contemporary thinkers as well as the historical ones you've rejected?

I hope that is the case. Strangely silent here, however. Not even a hint of an alternative to capitalism. Perhaps, I am not the stupid one after all ?

Originally Posted by can123

Perhaps, I am not the stupid one after all ?

Wrong again.

Originally Posted by Neo

Originally Posted by can123

Perhaps, I am not the stupid one after all ?

Wrong again.

Still no answer but I don't think anybody expected one from Neo so we are not disappointed. Back in your box, please !