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  1. #1
    The Pikey Hunter
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    At last.... A sensible view on alcohol

    BBC News - Viewpoint: Is the alcohol message all wrong?

    Many people think heavy drinking causes promiscuity, violence and anti-social behaviour. That's not necessarily true, argues Kate Fox.

    I am a social anthropologist, but what I do is not the traditional intrepid sort of anthropology where you go and study strange tribes in places with mud huts and monsoons and malaria.

    I really don't see why anthropologists feel they have to travel to unpronounceable corners of the world in order to study strange tribal cultures with bizarre beliefs and mysterious customs, when in fact the weirdest and most puzzling tribe of all is right here on our doorstep. I am of course talking about my own native culture - the British.

    And if you want examples of bizarre beliefs and weird customs, you need look no further than our attitude to drinking and our drinking habits. Pick up any newspaper and you will read that we are a nation of loutish binge-drinkers - that we drink too much, too young, too fast - and that it makes us violent, promiscuous, anti-social and generally obnoxious.

    Clearly, we Brits do have a bit of a problem with alcohol, but why?

    The problem is that we Brits believe that alcohol has magical powers - that it causes us to shed our inhibitions and become aggressive, promiscuous, disorderly and even violent.

    But we are wrong.

    In high doses, alcohol impairs our reaction times, muscle control, co-ordination, short-term memory, perceptual field, cognitive abilities and ability to speak clearly. But it does not cause us selectively to break specific social rules. It does not cause us to say, "Oi, what you lookin' at?" and start punching each other. Nor does it cause us to say, "Hey babe, fancy a shag?" and start groping each other.

    The effects of alcohol on behaviour are determined by cultural rules and norms, not by the chemical actions of ethanol.

    There is enormous cross-cultural variation in the way people behave when they drink alcohol. There are some societies (such as the UK, the US, Australia and parts of Scandinavia) that anthropologists call "ambivalent" drinking-cultures, where drinking is associated with disinhibition, aggression, promiscuity, violence and anti-social behaviour.

    There are other societies (such as Latin and Mediterranean cultures in particular, but in fact the vast majority of cultures), where drinking is not associated with these undesirable behaviours - cultures where alcohol is just a morally neutral, normal, integral part of ordinary, everyday life - about on a par with, say, coffee or tea. These are known as "integrated" drinking cultures.

    This variation cannot be attributed to different levels of consumption - most integrated drinking cultures have significantly higher per-capita alcohol consumption than the ambivalent drinking cultures.

    Instead the variation is clearly related to different cultural beliefs about alcohol, different expectations about the effects of alcohol, and different social rules about drunken comportment.

    This basic fact has been proved time and again, not just in qualitative cross-cultural research, but also in carefully controlled scientific experiments - double-blind, placebos and all. To put it very simply, the experiments show that when people think they are drinking alcohol, they behave according to their cultural beliefs about the behavioural effects of alcohol.

    The British and other ambivalent drinking cultures believe that alcohol is a disinhibitor, and specifically that it makes people amorous or aggressive, so when in these experiments we are given what we think are alcoholic drinks - but are in fact non-alcoholic "placebos" - we shed our inhibitions.

    We become more outspoken, more physically demonstrative, more flirtatious, and, given enough provocation, some (young males in particular) become aggressive. Quite specifically, those who most strongly believe that alcohol causes aggression are the most likely to become aggressive when they think that they have consumed alcohol.

    Our beliefs about the effects of alcohol act as self-fulfilling prophecies - if you firmly believe and expect that booze will make you aggressive, then it will do exactly that. In fact, you will be able to get roaring drunk on a non-alcoholic placebo.

    And our erroneous beliefs provide the perfect excuse for anti-social behaviour. If alcohol "causes" bad behaviour, then you are not responsible for your bad behaviour. You can blame the booze - "it was the drink talking", "I was not myself" and so on.

    But it is possible to change our drinking culture. Cultural shifts happen all the time, and there is extensive evidence (again from carefully controlled experiments, conducted in natural settings such as bars and nightclubs) to show that it doesn't take much to effect dramatic changes in how people behave when they drink.

    These experiments show that even when people are very drunk, if they are given an incentive (either financial reward or even just social approval) they are perfectly capable of remaining in complete control of their behaviour - of behaving as though they were totally sober.

    To achieve these changes, we need a complete and radical re-think of the aims and messages of all alcohol-education campaigns. So far, these efforts have perpetuated or even exacerbated the problem, because almost all of them simply reinforce our beliefs about the magical disinhibiting powers of alcohol.

    The drinkaware website, for example, warns young people that a mere three pints of beer (ie a perfectly normal evening out) "can lead to anti-social, aggressive and violent behaviour", that "you might start saying things you don't mean and behaving out of character", that alcohol is implicated in a high percentage of sexual offences and street crimes, and that the morning after "you may wonder what you did the night before".

    I would like to see a complete change of focus, with all alcohol-education and awareness campaigns designed specifically to challenge these beliefs - to get across the message that a) alcohol does not cause disinhibition (aggressive, sexual or otherwise) and that b) even when you are drunk, you are in control of and have total responsibility for your actions and behaviour.

    Alcohol education will have achieved its ultimate goal not when young people in this country are afraid of alcohol and avoid it because it is toxic and dangerous, but when they are frankly just a little bit bored by it, when they don't need to be told not to binge-drink vodka shots, any more than they now need to be told not to swig down 15 double espressos in quick succession.

    Even the silliest teenagers would not dream of doing that. And not because they have been educated about the dangers of a caffeine overdose - although there undoubtedly are such dangers - but because it would just be daft, what would be the point?

    What we should be aiming for is a culture where you don't need alcohol-education programmes, any more than we now need coffee or tea education programmes.

    If I were given total power, I could very easily engineer a nation in which coffee would become a huge social problem - a nation in which young people would binge-drink coffee every Friday and Saturday night and then rampage around town centres being anti-social, getting into fights and having unprotected sex in random one-night stands.


    There are cultures where drinking is not associated with violence
    I would restrict access to coffee, thus immediately giving it highly desirable forbidden-fruit status. Then I would issue lots of dire warnings about the dangerously disinhibiting effects of coffee.

    I would make sure everyone knew that even a mere three cups (six "units") of coffee "can lead to anti-social, aggressive and violent behaviour", and sexual promiscuity, thus instantly giving young people a powerful motive to binge-drink double espressos, and a perfect excuse to behave very badly after doing so.

    I could legitimately base many of my scary coffee-awareness warnings on the known effects of caffeine, and I could easily make these sound like a recipe for disaster, or at least for disinhibition and public disorder.

    It would not take long for my dire warnings to create the beliefs and expectations that would make them self-fulfilling prophecies. This may sound like a science fiction story, but it is precisely what our misguided alcohol-education programmes have done.

    Over the past few decades the government, the drinks industry and schools have done exactly the opposite of what they should do to tackle our dysfunctional drinking. I remain perhaps stupidly optimistic that eventually they will find the courage to turn things around and start heading in the right direction.
    You, sir, are a God among men....
    Short Men, who aren't terribly bright....
    More like dwarves with learning disabilities....
    You are a God among Dwarves With Learning Disabilities.

  2. #2
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    I think i'm superman when i drink.

  3. #3
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    I am a complete functional alcoholic. The rest of you have drinking problems.

  4. #4
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    I am a complete functional alcoholic. The rest of you have drinking problems.

  5. #5
    The Pikey Hunter
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    ^ & ^^ & ^^^

    Must call Kate. Obviously she is mistaken.

  6. #6
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    I posted that twice, in case you didn't get it the first time around (accident)

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by notdavetherave View Post
    I think i'm superman when i drink.

    Just remember one thing...your not

  8. #8
    ความสุขในอีสาน
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    ^ Its ok he only ( thinks ) he is

  9. #9
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    These experiments show that even when people are very drunk, if they are given an incentive (either financial reward or even just social approval) they are perfectly capable of remaining in complete control of their behaviour - of behaving as though they were totally sober.
    Don't agree with this. When you're drunk, you're drunk. Nothing can stop you being drunk when you've been drinking all night.

    I can moderate my behaviour to a situation, for example I can be steaming drunk in a local pub and not start offering to fight everyone, but there's no way I can appear in any way sober to anybody.

    Not sure what the point of this article is exactly, as it starts off saying that the way we behave when drunk is a cultural thing and that people act in a socially conditioned way. It then goes on to say:

    I would like to see a complete change of focus, with all alcohol-education and awareness campaigns designed specifically to challenge these beliefs - to get across the message that a) alcohol does not cause disinhibition (aggressive, sexual or otherwise) and that b) even when you are drunk, you are in control of and have total responsibility for your actions and behaviour.
    Alcohol's like any drug, the effect it has on behaviour is down to current state of mind, tolerance, and individual personality. Culture obviously has a part to play but people all over the world get violent or fuck people they normally wouldnt when they're drunk, not just the UK. Of course alcohol causes disinihibition.

    I cant really be arsed going over the rest of the article, it's too over analytical and sounds like it's written by a fucking naive student. Oh, its written by a "social anthropologist". What a surprise. The "I could get the whole country running around smashing shit up pumped up on just caffeine with the right social conditioning and pre-conceptions" is, frankly, laughable.

    Not that sensible of an article then after all, IMO.

  10. #10
    The Pikey Hunter
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    Quote Originally Posted by khmen
    Not that sensible of an article then after all, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by khmen
    I cant really be arsed going over the rest of the article
    So you're commenting on the article without reading it entirely. Are you a Daily Mail reader or something? (Oh and anthropology is a respected science, not particularly worthy of being sneered at. Maybe you are mistaking it with sociology? )

    Makes a lot of sense to me. Alcohol has been around since the dawn of civilization, The 'anti-social behaviour' which is being blamed on 'binge drinking' is a relatively new phenomenen.

    The point being made is that there is probably something much deeper to the whole issue and shouldnt be blamed solely on alcohol.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by khmen View Post
    Not that sensible of an article then after all, IMO.
    I'll drink to that

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
    The point being made is that there is probably something much deeper to the whole issue and shouldnt be blamed solely on alcohol.
    Nah, blame the drinking... the alcohol is doing its job

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil
    So you're commenting on the article without reading it entirely. Are you a Daily Mail reader or something? (Oh and anthropology is a respected science, not particularly worthy of being sneered at. Maybe you are mistaking it with sociology? )
    I meant I can't be arsed going into an in depth argument about other points I disagreed with, not that I hadn't read it. No, I don't read the Daily Mail and yes, I'm aware of the importance of anthropologists in furthering our understanding of the human race.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil
    Makes a lot of sense to me. Alcohol has been around since the dawn of civilization, The 'anti-social behaviour' which is being blamed on 'binge drinking' is a relatively new phenomenen. The point being made is that there is probably something much deeper to the whole issue and shouldnt be blamed solely on alcohol.
    No, bad behaviour through drunkeness has been around as long as alcohol has. It's certainly nothing new in the UK, been the same (or worse at times) for hundreds of years.

    The only deep issue is that Brits drink too much as a nation, and inevitably a certain percentage of drinkers cause trouble. What is the article stating about it thats new? And what is it proposing to do about it?

    The subtext is BS, that people just act certain ways when drunk that society deems acceptable, and that drunks in the UK are somehow more violent and have less self control than the happy, civilized drunks elsewhere. Get enough people in a room anywhere in the world, give them enough alcohol and some will fight each other, some will go home and fuck each other.
    Last edited by khmen; 13-10-2011 at 02:45 AM.

  14. #14
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  15. #15
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    "Reality is an illusion caused by lack of alcohol "

    PAD yellow nutter motto

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    as long as she gets the publicity and her grant renewed, why should she care?

  17. #17
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    I like the drink as long as i don't have any resposibilities after, I.E. back to work after a liquid lunch, back to the family after the pub.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrabow
    I am a complete functional alcoholic. The rest of you have drinking problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carrabow
    I am a complete functional alcoholic. The rest of you have drinking problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carrabow
    I posted that twice, in case you didn't get it the first time around (accident)
    Sounds like a clear case of short term memory loss. You should get that looked at.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Muffinman View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Carrabow
    I am a complete functional alcoholic. The rest of you have drinking problems.
    Quote Originally Posted by Carrabow
    I am a complete functional alcoholic. The rest of you have drinking problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by Carrabow
    I posted that twice, in case you didn't get it the first time around (accident)
    Sounds like a clear case of short term memory loss. You should get that looked at.

    I did but I cant remember what the Doc said

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by LooseBowels View Post
    "Reality is an illusion caused by lack of alcohol "

    PAD yellow nutter motto
    Alcohol is neither political or social. It just is.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carrabow View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by notdavetherave View Post
    I think i'm superman when i drink.

    Just remember one thing...your not
    yes i know, its got me into trouble and even gone back to bars to apologise for my behavour.

  22. #22
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    I hate that feeling when after waking up and collecting ones thoughts one remembers what a complete fucking arse one made of ones self the previous night.
    Not every time of course but when it does happen just the memory makes one shudder.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo View Post
    I hate that feeling when after waking up and collecting ones thoughts one remembers what a complete fucking arse one made of ones self the previous night.
    Not every time of course but when it does happen just the memory makes one shudder.
    A long time ago I learned how to just call it quits. Now I just get that certain point and say goodnight to everyone and go to bed OR fall asleep where I am sitting.

    When I was younger, well thats a different story

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by notdavetherave
    yes i know, its got me into trouble and even gone back to bars to apologise for my behavour.
    You Sir, are an Honorable Gentleman.

  25. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Koojo
    I hate that feeling when after waking up and collecting ones thoughts one remembers what a complete fucking arse one made of ones self the previous night. Not every time of course but when it does happen just the memory makes one shudder
    Maybe, not so bad Man!

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