Is going to a university a complete waste of time and money?

**chitown** · 04-03-2010, 10:41 AM

See the article below and click on the link to watch the video.

Is going to a university a complete waste of time and money?

A bachelor degree costs over 100K to 200K US. The money would be better spent starting a business.

The guys in the video says that universities are a scam? Do you agree?

I think chasing a piece of paper dumbs a person down. It kills any entrepreneurial spirit they might have and funnels them into being a pawn in dead end job. They all march off and take a job and are satisfied with trading hours for dollars.

Comments?

Rethinking College as Student-Loan Burdens Rise

A recent WSJ article profiled a Columbia, Ohio doctor facing a whopping $500,000 in student loans -- the result of deferred payments and accumulated charges. While the doctor's debt burden may be extreme, more U.S. college students are borrowing larger amounts to pay for surging tuition costs.
Rising debt is one key reason why our guest James Altucher, a hedge-fund manager and author, argues: Don't send your kids to college!
"There's a lot of evidence to suggest that motivated kids are going to make money whether or not they go to college," says Altucher, managing partner at Formula Capital. "So teach your kids how to be motivated. Teach your kids how to sell a product, build a network of connections. That's going to be far more valuable."
He notes for some people, it might be more enriching and productive to go to college later in life.
The case for college. Altucher adds the case for college largely is based on an assumption: a degree = a higher paying job. "Everyone who's hiring you has a college degree and that's a way they perpetuate the scam," Altucher tells Aaron in the accompanying clip. (Of course there are notable college dropouts, including Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg.) To be sure, college grads typically get higher paying jobs and are expected to earn $800,000 more over the course of a lifetime vs. workers who didn't go to college, according to CollegeBoard.
100K for a degree: But with four years of college costing $104,000 on average (including books and tuition) and the average college student graduating with $23,000 in debt, Altucher argues it's time to rethink the value of four years of higher education, especially right after high school. He believes the vast majority of HS grads would be better off if tuition money was invested for them instead, as detailed here, or used to fund a new business or other "educational" endeavors like travel.
Note, that $104,000 figure is just the average total cost -- and that's just for now. Faced with budget shortfalls, costs are surging, particularly at public schools, while degrees at top private colleges can cost upwards of $200,000.
Altucher notes the cost of college in the U.S. has risen 10 fold during the last 30 years, compared to a six-fold increase for health-care and three-fold for inflation overall. "College, not only is it a scam, but the college presidents know it. That's why they keep raising tuition greater than health care or inflation costs," he says.
From $1,620 to $10,000 in 20 years. University of California leaders in November voted to hike tuition for undergraduates by a whopping 32% or roughly $2,500. The total fee for undergraduates at campuses including UCLA and UC Berkeley will exceed $10,000 an academic year by fall 2010. That annual fee was just $1,620 in 1990, and about $3,830 in 2002. Not surprisingly the fee hikes have sparked protests and anger -- especially as the state's budget woes haven't stopped top UC officials from pocketing base salaries of about $400,000 annually.

http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker...5.html?tickers

**AntRobertson** · 04-03-2010, 10:49 AM

I think that article's a little specious, it really all depends on what you study and there are certain things that you have to study for. For instance I wouldn't want to go to an untrained Dr. if I were sick, no matter how much of a go-getter or self-starter they were.

Plus I'm admittedly somewhat of a cynic when it comes to these hedge-fund manager type people (and others who specialise in using other people's money) when they start talking about this kind of thing. If they're so all-knowing then why is it they need to make money telling others what to do with theirs.

**FailSafe** · 04-03-2010, 10:57 AM

The one tuition example they give equates to $40,000+ to earn a degree, nowhere near the 100K+ they claim.

Yeah, higher education is expensive- a degree offers opportunities, though, that can't be denied- there are many jobs/careers that you simply cannot engage in without a degree (medicine, most scientific pursuits, engineering, etc.- you might be able to learn about these subjects and even become proficient in them, but the lack of a degree will most likely prevent you from making a living from them).

My kid is going to get a degree if I have to kill him (actually, killing him would probably save me a lot of money over time- that should have been mentioned in the original post

)- if he decides to enter a career where it won't be used, oh well- that's his choice- he's going out in the world armed with every tool I can give him, though, cost be damned (I myself have a writing degree from a fairly decent university- I've never written professionally, but the fact that I possess a degree at all is the reason I'm in the position I am today, where I'm pretty satisfied- if I didn't have it, I would never have been able to take the first step which led to my being here).

I don't think education is ever a "waste of money"- I also can't deny that you can become fabulously successful without a degree- however, the fact remains that (while there are certainly glaring examples of folks without degrees, like Bill Gates, doing fairly well...), having one only helps your chances- there's a reason why the lack of a degree is always mentioned if someone achieves great success despite not having one- it's because it makes that success less likely to have happened as opposed to the number of successful people who went further in their education.

**chitown** · 04-03-2010, 10:59 AM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

The one tuition example they give equates to $40,000+ to earn a degree, nowhere near the 100K+ they claim.

$40K plus living expenses minus the money you could be making.

**AntRobertson** · 04-03-2010, 11:01 AM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

I've never written professionally, but the fact that I possess a degree at all is the reason I'm in the position I am today

Someone once told me that: 'A degree is a passport to an interview'.

I'd agree with that, I think that (even if you wind-up in a field with no relevance to your degree) it shows that you were able to apply yourself.

**FailSafe** · 04-03-2010, 11:03 AM

Originally Posted by chitown

Originally Posted by FailSafe

The one tuition example they give equates to $40,000+ to earn a degree, nowhere near the 100K+ they claim.

$40K plus living expenses minus the money you could be making.

This is what the article says:

But with four years of college costing $104,000 on average (including books and tuition)

Living expenses and potential lost earning weren't mentioned, though they might be included..

**AntRobertson** · 04-03-2010, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by chitown

A bachelor degree costs over 100K to 200K US. The money would be better spent starting a business.

I think that the point might be that not everyone is suited to higher education / studying for a degree, just as not everyone is suited to starting / running a business. Horses for courses.

**the dogcatcher** · 04-03-2010, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

I think that article's a little specious, it really all depends on what you study and there are certain things that you have to study for. For instance I wouldn't want to go to an untrained Dr. if I were sick, no matter how much of a go-getter or self-starter they were.

Plus I'm admittedly somewhat of a cynic when it comes to these hedge-fund manager type people (and others who specialise in using other people's money) when they start talking about this kind of thing. If they're so all-knowing then why is it they need to make money telling others what to do with theirs.

Agreed.
There are loads of people on the internet selling books on how to trade forex.
If they are so fcking brilliant at trading currency then why on earth would they bother writing books about it.
I trade currency but for this reason would never buy a book about it.
It's all readily available free on the net.
I have a degree in Engineering which cost me nothing, if fact I was payed to do it by The BBC in the eighties.
Unfortunately the job I did has been largely replaced by computers now and the roll of BBC engineer is now that of a board swapping monkey or someone with average soldering skills.
See ya, back to forex.
BTW, watch the baht today. Might go down big.

**Thetyim** · 04-03-2010, 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by the dogcatcher

BTW, watch the baht today. Might go down big.

I'm watching.
Got any more info you can divulge ?

**the dogcatcher** · 04-03-2010, 12:09 PM

Yep, reported by the BBC.
The industrial complex at Mataphut ie PTT has had to shelve I think 24 billion odd dollars of project due to environmental issues.
The law laid down in the 2008 constitution makes these activities illegal but was never enforced due to political instability. Bribes more like.
Anyhow, Mataphut is such a large part of thr Thai economy that investers are worried that this may destabilize the Baht.
No link.
Try BBC news.
Something like that anyway. Still drunk from last night.

**StrontiumDog** · 04-03-2010, 12:24 PM

Agree that a degree is irrelevant as to whether you become an entrepreneur or not. You either have "it" or you don't.

However, most don't and a degree allows progress for many.

**the dogcatcher** · 04-03-2010, 12:36 PM

Absolutely. Work for plenty of filthy rich bastards that can just about read.

**panama hat** · 04-03-2010, 12:38 PM

This discussion has to be seen in an American context as good education, even tertiary education, in many other countries is free or very low-cost as the governments aim to educate anyone who is capable . . . not only those who can afford it.

As Ant mentioned, not everyone is suited to studying and take up the path that opens . . . just like not everyone is suited to being a plumber, carpenter etc... . . . or becoming an entrepreneur.

Whether or not education is 'worth' it is hardly the point, aside from the massive debts one incurs in some countries . . . and let us not focus on medicine, law, dentistry etc... where there is no option and the subject studies is usually what one ends up doing.

Arts, Commerce, Engineering are fields that give you a good understanding of methodology, analysis and further degrees like an MBA further hone those skills.

Everyone in my family for several generations has graduated from University, some did well, others less so. My brother is devastated that his eldest son has no interest in University and has become a nurse for the elderly, his second son wants to be a carpenter . . nothing wrong with either professions . . .

Of course I'd want my children to go to University . . . these few years don't take anything away from their possibilities or potential. . . ad if they want to become entrepreneurs after that . . . good for them.

Bottom line: Why not.

**mooncake** · 04-03-2010, 12:52 PM

Originally Posted by chitown

Is going to a university a complete waste of time and money?

Not for me, it's well worth it every single penny.
And I'm sure glad I have the degree in my pocket, because without one I wouldn't be able to perform my job properly including having my own business.

If you know what you want to study and young enough, it can be very profitable in the long run. You can recoup almost all of your education costs in about 5-10 yrs generally.

Sure many people can get a job without a degree, however with a degree it sure will help opening the door to many opportunities and advancements.
And most employers nowadays would prefer to hire the one with experiences + a degree, over the one without a degree. Too many people are fighting for the same piece of pie, so it's sure to better have the degree in you pocket than without one.

**the dogcatcher** · 04-03-2010, 12:59 PM

Agreed Moon Unit.
But would the money be better off invested or used to start a company?
200 large does sound a bit much though.

**Norton** · 04-03-2010, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by panama hat

This discussion has to be seen in an American context as good education, even tertiary education, in many other countries is free or very low-cost as the governments aim to educate anyone who is capable

The "American" context.

"California residents do not pay tuition for community colleges. Rather, they pay an enrollment fee. Non-resident and international students, however, pay tuition, usually an additional $100 per unit (or credit).
In the past decade, tuition and fees have fluctuated with the state's budget. For much of the 1990s and early 2000s, enrollment fees ranged between $11 and $13 per credit. However, with the state's budget deficits in the early-to-mid 2000s, fees rose to $18 per unit in 2003, and, by 2004, reached $26 per unit, the highest level in the state's history. Since then, fees have dropped. The current enrollment fee is $20 per unit, down $6 since January 2007. It is the lowest enrollment fee of any college or university in the United States. On July 28, 2009, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger signed AB2X (the education trailer bill to the 2009-10 state budget), setting the community college enrollment fee back at $26 per unit, effective for the Fall 2009 term."

California Community Colleges System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**Norton** · 04-03-2010, 01:11 PM

Originally Posted by chitown

Is going to a university a complete waste of time and money?

No....

**slimboyfat** · 04-03-2010, 01:13 PM

Not compared to how much time you can waste on internet forums

**Thaihome** · 04-03-2010, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by the dogcatcher

Yep, reported by the BBC.
The industrial complex at Mataphut ie PTT has had to shelve I think 24 billion odd dollars of project due to environmental issues.
The law laid down in the 2008 constitution makes these activities illegal but was never enforced due to political instability. Bribes more like.
Anyhow, Mataphut is such a large part of thr Thai economy that investers are worried that this may destabilize the Baht.
No link.
Try BBC news.
Something like that anyway. Still drunk from last night.

Old, old news. Court imposed an injunction on 74 projects back in December 2009. In fact, 7 more projects on the list have just been released last week, making a total of about 19 that have been approved, even before the independent panel has been setup.

I guess the BBC correspondent has been too busy writing his left wing bullshit about Thaksin to notice what is really going on in the country.
TH

**mooncake** · 04-03-2010, 01:15 PM

If the benefits will outweigh the costs, then the 200k is so irrelevant at the end.

I'm sure my parents would say that their approx 150k was well worth spent on me. Well certainly....because neither I'm one of those boomerang kids, nor do I find the need to open my palm and ask for a handout from someone everytime I want to buy something for myself.

**slimboyfat** · 04-03-2010, 01:16 PM

150k is a fairly large handout

**The Ghost Of The Moog** · 04-03-2010, 01:18 PM

Going to university (or getting some tertiary qualification) is not a waste of time.

What is a waste of time is getting a degree or similar, and then loitering around on online forums indulging in time-killing waffle and writing tripe.

Fat lot of good your expensive education did you !

(I don't have a degree, so the world loses nothing with my squandering of precious time)

**mooncake** · 04-03-2010, 01:20 PM

^^But it's for a good cause, so there's no lost of face for me when I was at 17.
Everyone in my family got that...for the purpose of education that is. But we all got nothing else beside "that" from our parents.

**slimboyfat** · 04-03-2010, 01:24 PM

I hope your parents got a refund on the English language units

**slimboyfat** · 04-03-2010, 01:28 PM

My brother and sister went to university. They are doing ok in careers etc, but certainly nothing spectacular.

I am not doing spectacularly well either, but at least it didnt cost my parents anything

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