Thread: NZ woman in Thailand food poisoning death

Chiang mai hotel connected to four deaths gets police all clear

Police have ruled out foul play after four people staying at a Chiang Mai hotel died over a 16-day period.

Stupid, stupid c*nts.

I refer to post #103. Has anyone actually tested the hotel (thoroughly) for Legionella yet?

No fucking chance. Or if they have, they've quietly cleaned it up.

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

^
As we've been discussing in the Return To Thai Normalcy thread, it's clear for all to see that all the media including the Post are biased beyond redemption and are kapoom-ing to anyone of a higher social standing. Nothing negative is to be reported about Thailand or the Thai merchant class.

Social control - full stop. And the next stop is totalitarian rule - as long as they can keep the media and the merchant class on side, they think they'll be able to pull it off.

Oddly the Post is only read by foreigners and a small percentage of the most highly educated Thais, and most of those people know nonsense when they read it. I still think the cover-up does far more damage then coming clean would do, no matter what the cause was.

Also, that all clear would have more credibility if someone who was qualified such as an MD or a PHD etc. said it was safe. The police are not qualified by education to make such a determination.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Has anyone actually tested the hotel (thoroughly) for Legionella yet?

Legionnaires does come to mind, but it seems doubtful after reading symptoms.
Also, no others were apparently sickened in the hotel, which probably would have been the case if the hotel water supplies to the air conditioning system etc were contaminated with Legionella bacteria.

Since I doubt all victims ate at the same food stall, I'm wondering if they all ate in the hotel itself (more likely, right)? Also, the bottles of water supplied to each room should have been checked. Were there free snacks served to rooms. Water dispensers outside in hallways?

Signs and symptoms

Patients with Legionnaires' disease usually have fever, chills, and a cough, which may be dry or may produce sputum. Some patients also have muscle aches, headache, tiredness, loss of appetite, loss of coordination (ataxia), and occasionally diarrhea and vomiting. Laboratory tests may show that patients’ renal functions, liver functions and electrolytes are deranged, including hyponatremia. Chest X-rays often show pneumonia with bi-basal consolidation. It is difficult to distinguish Legionnaires' disease from other types of pneumonia by symptoms or radiologic
Persons with Pontiac fever experience fever and muscle aches without pneumonia. They generally recover in 2 to 5 days without treatment.
The time between the patient's exposure to the bacterium and the onset of illness for Legionnaires' disease is 2 to 10 days; for Pontiac fever, it is shorter, generally a few hours to 2 days.
findings alone; other tests are required for diagnosis.
above from Wikipeidia

this from emedicine: The presentation ranged from mild flulike symptoms to multisystem organ failure. Of the 182 people infected, 29 died.

Originally Posted by nostromo

This is the land of the free.

Really ? I always suspected the real meaning of LOS was Land of Slaves.

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

We were told that the British couple died of heart attacks after having sex

Both of them ? Wow, guess simultaneous orgasm ain't a myth then

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

following post was published prior to above Bangkok Post article. Thai mystery hotel death toll jumps to four Thai mystery hotel death toll jumps to four

Already posted in this thread if you bothered to read it.

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

Monks will perform religious rites at the hotel on Tuesday.

and everyone lived happily ever after

Originally Posted by English Noodles

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

following post was published prior to above Bangkok Post article. Thai mystery hotel death toll jumps to four Thai mystery hotel death toll jumps to four

Already posted in this thread if you bothered to read it.

thanks. I deleted it.

Originally Posted by guyinthailand

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Has anyone actually tested the hotel (thoroughly) for Legionella yet?

Legionnaires does come to mind, but it seems doubtful after reading symptoms.

The only symptoms I've seen being mentioned include diarrhoea and vomiting, which are on your list, and cardiac complications, which do present in extreme cases (and are covered in your list by "multiple organ failure).

My ex is good at her job, 30 years in Cardiac ICU et al, and stipulated, as I said earlier without going into too much detail, that Legionella will not present in such severe form in the majority of fit, healthy people; she reckons some are more susceptible than others, and those with pre-existing medical conditions, especially of a cardiac nature, are at higher risk, as well as the elderly or young, who for various reasons have less effective immune systems.

And without knowing the structure of the hotel's AC system, what has been stated is that patient X (the one squirreled down the fire escape) and the kiwis were in adjacent rooms, and it was suggested that the British couple were in the room below. This suggests that it's a physically localised problem within a certain area of the hotel. Or, as she also suggested, the swimming pool, which I know not all guests use.

My point is that the police should not be giving the all clear because there was no "foul play"; the medical team should be in there with biohazard suits on, checking every single square millimetre of that hotel, starting with the rooms in question.

Perhaps they've already done this in the dark and cleaned up the mess they've found.

But either way, this should have been done if not after the first case, most certainly after the second. And if it wasn't, then the deaths of the British couple were avoidable, and they should sue this shit out of the hotel owner and the health services for either criminal negligence or culpable homicide (if bribes were paid or favours called in to cover this up).

Of course, this will not happen, but I do know that I won't be gracing this hotel with my presence in the future (and I have stayed there regularly for the last couple of years).

C U N T S.

Ironically, here's how an outbreak was handled in Phuket four years ago.

PHUKET: -- Some of the winter holidaymakers who have booked their trips to Phuket through the Finnish travel operator Aurinkomatkat may have to cancel their vacation entirely or at least change their destination, as all hotels in Phuket are filled to capacity.

All Finns resident in the Grand Tropicana Hotel in Phuket are being transferred to other accommodation, and the popular beach resort hotel will not be used until it has been satisfactorily demonstrated whether or not dangerous Legionella bacteria are hiding in its water and air-conditioning systems.

It has been confirmed so far that four Nordic tourists aged 24 to 66 have contracted Legionnaires' disease after staying in the hotel.

In addition, a Finnish traveller who was resident at the hotel about a year ago evidently fell ill with the disease.

Furthermore, another Finn with a high temperature who recently returned from Phuket was being examined on Wednesday, but it could not be established whether or not he had Legionnaires' disease, and he was released from the hospital.

The water samples from the hotel have not been processed yet.

And that's what should have fucking happened at the Downtown Inn!

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

I won't be gracing this hotel with my presence in the future (and I have stayed there regularly for the last couple of years).

the Downtown inn will just change its name , get a lick of paint , etc

Originally Posted by blue

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

I won't be gracing this hotel with my presence in the future (and I have stayed there regularly for the last couple of years).

the Downtown inn will just change its name , get a lick of paint , etc

It doesn't need to.... it's been cleared - by the police, those leading lights of health care.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Having regaled the details of the story to my ex who's a cardiac nurse says that with the cardiac complications there's every chance it's legionella which could be in the AC or even the swimming pool. Not everyone is susceptible, which also mitigates its spread.

Leqionella is probably not the cause if the MD website 'emedicine' can be believed with pneumonia the predominant manisfestation and a 2-10 incubation period. It seems the victims were fine one minute and the next they were violently ill and dying. Plus, 'only' a handful of people in the hotel got sick, as far as we've been told.

"Pneumonia is the predominant clinical manifestation of Legionnaires disease (LD).

• After an incubation period of 2-10 days, patients typically develop the following nonspecific symptoms:
  • Fever
  • Weakness
  • Fatigue
  • Malaise
  • Myalgia
  • Chills
• Respiratory symptoms may not be present initially but develop as the disease progresses. Almost all patients develop a cough, which is initially dry and nonproductive, but may become productive, with purulent sputum and, (in rare cases) hemoptysis. Patients may experience chest pain.
• Neurologic and GI symptoms are usually prominent. Neurologic complaints may include the following:
  • Headache
  • Lethargy
  • Confusion
  • Cerebellar ataxia
  • Agitation
  • Stupor
• Common GI symptoms include diarrhea (watery and nonbloody), nausea, vomiting, and abdominal pain.17
• In neonates, Legionnaires disease can manifest as septicemia and/or pneumonia with a fulminant course, often diagnosed at autopsy.
• Extrapulmonary legionellosis is rare; the most common site of extrapulmonary infection in adults is the heart. In children, extrapulmonary sites may include the liver, spleen, brain, and lymph nodes.18 Manifestations of extrapulmonary legionellosis may include the following:
  • Sinusitis
  • Cellulitis
  • Peritonitis
  • Pyelonephritis
  • Pancreatitis
  • Wound infection
  • Lymphadenopathy
  • Prosthetic valve endocarditis
  • Myocarditis
  • Pericarditis
  • Postcardiotomy syndrome"

I take back what I said about Legionella "probably" not the cause. It could be the cause though I still feel doubtful about this. Still, better not to rule anything out at this stage. Since Legionaires Disease has an incubation period of 2-10 days, (and symptoms are preceded by mild headache and muscle aches and followed by cough in 90%) it would be helpful to know how long those who were sickened had been staying in the Downtown Inn and if they had a cough. If no cough and other usual symptoms, it seems Legionella may not be the cause.

• The classical presentation begins with an incubation period of 2-10 days.
• Patients often experience a prodrome of 1-2 days of mild headache and myalgias, followed by high fever, chills, and multiple rigors.
• Cough is present in 90% of cases; cough usually is nonproductive at first but may become productive as the disease progresses. (emedicine)
  

Did the Thais bother to track down all others who had stayed in the hotel and find out if they had become ill? Since Legionella and other diseases can take a few days or longer to develop, contacting those who had stayed only a day or two, then checked out, would be a good thing to do. Of course the Thais often would often rather not do anything that results in bad PR, or losing 'face'.

At first they thought it was bad sea weed, because that has pockets of the gas hydrogen sulphide hidden in it- symptoms of that are , respiratory problems in the lungs and pulmonary oedema -which can affect the heart .
they ruled the seaweed out, but the symptoms sound very similar

so a guess to the cause ? some toxic gas , that was in the hotel .

I found this post on thailawforum.com under a discussion of the recent Chiang Mai deaths of 4 people staying at the Downtown Inn. Her mentioning of another (food?) poisoning death in Chiang Mai on Jan 11 is noteworthy. Was this death mentioned on Teakdoor anywhere?
"Barbara Lee March 2, 2011 at 1:56 am Readers need to be aware that an American died in Chiang Mai on 1/11/11 as a result of food poisoning. The Thai media failed to report this death. There are dots not being connected by the media or the local health officials. Or if the dots ARE being connected, the public is not being properly informed of the food safety risks in Chiang Mai."

I never heard about that death
its unsubstantiated , just from a forum like here .

What I'm upset about is that at least two people may have died needlessly. And your own quoted text contains the following:

18 Manifestations of extrapulmonary legionellosis may include the following:

• Prosthetic valve endocarditis
• Myocarditis
• Pericarditis
• Postcardiotomy syndrome

Which seems at odds with the statement:

Since Sarah Carter and the couple who died both had heart pathology that (and other reasons, see above) seems to rule out Legionella.

After three weeks, they must know the answer, the question is who is covering it up and why? This is not a medical mystery, therefore it doesn't take sleuthing. It's a crime is what it is. And yes, I will be visiting them because I'm supposed to be staying there in August, and will want answers before I make my booking (of course I have no intention of making one any more).

Given the response of the Scandinavians in the Phuket outbreak, the British and Kiwi response by comparison is absolutely fucking pitiful.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Kiwi response by comparison is absolutely fucking pitiful

hb - I'd like to see this resolved too; I wonder if the Christchurch quake has impacted on any NZ inquiry - police and coroners trying to cope with 160+ deaths, autopsies, read about the difficulties with identifying corpses it may be using all their resources. Their PM criticised the slowness of IDs last week but they said they were doing all they could.