Thread: State Of Emergency declared in Bangkok

El Gibbon has a good point here. As long as the elites continue to cheat, lie and steal and keeping the poor ignorant and dependent on them for survival, nothing will ever change.

Capitalism in not the problem; the problem is the structure of Thai capitalism, the fault is deep in the system.

Before Thaksin, they had loan sharks. And all these massive banking conglomerates, including Bangkok Bank, Bank of Ayutthaya, Thai Farmer’s all started out as loan-sharks some time ago.

In Thailand, the HiSo Thai or Chinese/Thai can be mortgaged to hilt. They then cook the books with their other cousin, and then go back to the bank with a big smile to show the banks this non-existent cash flow, and the circle of financial life in Thailand continues.

For the poor there is nothing. Thaksin 30Baht health care made the poor so happy and won him several votes.

One of the biggest worry for PAD and its supporters is that all this could change with PPP in power, and the second worry is education; satellite tv and the internet influencing the attitude of the poor.

Originally Posted by keda

In other words, the operation was a success but the patient died.

In hindsight, yes. The Dr. didn't realize that opening up to remove the cancer and exposing it to air that the cancer would spread. ( A known resultant in some types of cancer).

E. G.

Originally Posted by gjbkk

Capitalism in not the problem; the problem is the structure of Thai capitalism, the fault is deep in the system.

The fault is the people. Their morality (or lack thereof), their fundamental belief system and their social structure.

In other words, the operation was a success but the patient died.

I don't think it was an operation. It was more like trying to kill someone by removing their kidney which resulted in saving them from kidney cancer. No one here is trying to help anyone as far as I can see. Nuke 'em all! Let them all be reborn!

Announcement Number 20/2008 People’s Alliance for Democracy On “New Politics”

Manager
08 September 2008
News

The People’s Alliance for Democracy (PAD) has been gathering continuously to protect the Constitution to prevent it from being used as a tool in laundering the wrongdoings of Thaksin Shinawatra and his associates, to eradicate the Thaksin regime, to chase out the proxy government, and to pave the way for new politics in the Kingdom of Thailand.

For unity and clarity of the rally, the PAD wants to announce the direction of new politics for the Kingdom of Thailand as follows:

1. The current political system should be condemned as electioneers monopolize electoral constituencies and businesspeople. Vote-buying and electoral fraud exist through using local influence to threaten the public. State authority is abused and money is used to win elections at all costs on the weakness and corrupt activities of some Election Commission officials, who cannot ensure a fair and just election.

With elections riddled with fraud and vote-buying, Thai politics has turned into “money politics.” Politicians have to pay back to their sponsors through corruption, violation of the law, and violation of the oath they gave to His Majesty the King when they took office. They sell their country as was seen from how this administration violated the Constitution, as ruled by the Constitution Court, in signing the joint communiqué which allowed Cambodia to register Preah Vihear Temple as a World Heritage Site by itself. They seek benefits for themselves and their cronies and abuse the Parliamentary system by utilizing their majority vote to support the ruling coalition in unethical endeavors, turning Parliament into a dictatorship of capitalism.

As most politicians in the system strive to seek benefits for themselves and their cronies, the checks and balance system from the judiciary, the media, and the public are damaged, destroyed, and threatened.

The judiciary system has been damaged and destroyed through the transfer of state officials to put politicians’ associates into power. The Administrative and Legislative branches have jointly tried to amend the Constitution to lower the authority of the judiciary and the checks and balance system. Corrupt politicians try to bribe the judiciary system. The media sees interference. People who are exercising their rights to gather against the government have been injured by the police and thugs backed by the government. All of this contribute to the efforts to destroy the country’s checks and balance system to cover up the evil of politicians. Attempts also exist to lessen the power of the monarchy for absolute control by politicians.

Even if politicians resign or a House dissolution occurs, Thai politics will continue in this vicious cycle if no efforts are made to reform it.

For a sustainable future of the country, the PAD sees that it is necessary for new politics in the Kingdom of Thailand.

2. New politics for the Kingdom of Thailand is true democracy under a Constitutional Monarchy with the following goals:

2.1 Support for good people to manage the country and blocking of evil people from coming to power so all sectors of society are ensured justice.

2.2 The public must be allowed participation in politics. New politics will not only see politicians elected from constituencies but will see representation from all sectors, such as representatives from different vocations and groups. This will be designed by a Constitution that sees public participation to ensure a true democracy under a Constitutional Monarchy.

3. To ensure that new politics is introduced in the Kingdom of Thailand, the PAD announces the following stance:

3.1 The PAD sees its first goal as chasing out this proxy government that has sold the country. It is not necessary for negotiations with any group that sees otherwise.

We support changes to the current political situation on the condition that political reform must happen and the public must be allowed participation in politics. There must also be sincere efforts to solve the evil in the Thaksin regime through the judiciary system.

The proposal on the PAD stage of a 70 : 30 ratio of public representatives to elected representatives is merely an example of how the old-style politics should be replaced and is open to discussions. It is not a fixed formula advocated by the PAD. We are ready for a discussion from all sides on designing new politics and will respect the majority decision for new politics that is ethical, moral, and more representative of the varied social sectors to go in line with the lifestyles and culture of Thailand but still upholding democracy under a Constitutional Monarchy.

With deep respect,
People’s Alliance for Democracy
Monday, September 08, 2008
At Government House


Source: พันธมิตรฯ แถลงความชัดเจน"การเมืองใหม่"

They sell their country as was seen from how this administration violated the Constitution, as ruled by the Constitution Court, in signing the joint communiqué which allowed Cambodia to register Preah Vihear Temple as a World Heritage Site by itself. They seek benefits for themselves and their cronies and abuse the Parliamentary system by utilizing their majority vote to support the ruling coalition in unethical endeavors, turning Parliament into a dictatorship of capitalism.

these guys are in cloud cuckoo land!

I'd feel better with PPP running this place than those PAD lunatics.

Their assumption is that they'll be less corrupt than the corrupt bastards they're trying to throw out.

I don't think so.

Agree Tex.

Never trust any party who go out of their way to try and convince the electorate how honest they are.

More often than not they are trying to convince themselves!

Actions speak louder than words IMO!

Positive actions, and for the good of the whole Thai community is what is needed right now.

Kent State.

If you have knowledge of this, the forebearance being shown is laudable, even unbelievable.

I wonder why??

The king told Sa-mack if he shoots anyone again, it's his ass.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by baldrick

Originally Posted by sabang

To counter the several thousand bussed in southern protesters (scum) occupying government house and laying siege to other government installations and airports.

they also came armed with machettes and clubs ?

Peaceful PAD protestors explaining Sondhi's "New Politics" to a Pro-Govenrment supporter.


Thai PM declares state of emergency in capital - CNN.com

They are as bad as each other, they want to play at running with the big dogs, they are gonna get bit now and again. It's just the way it goes folks, don't lose to much sleep over it.

Originally Posted by baldrick

Originally Posted by DrB0b

29 August 2008 was a day that started as a day of pride for the Thai police force, having done their duty to the point of the law. And it ended as a day where the patronage system with its extrajudicial powers won against the law. And this day, I fear, will have consequences far beyond this current mess. A dismantled and demoralized police force is not going to be able to function. Already now, in many areas of town, the security situation has deteriorated. At one level, the police force is stretched to its limits overseeing the still ongoing unprecedented illegal occupation of Government House. At another, maybe more important, level it is worth asking how such an unjustly defeated police force can be motivated to do its duty when it is hindered in such an unconstitutional manner on the very day when it was at the best I have seen it?

the Thai police force has not engendered the respect of the Thai people from its past daily actions , so I think this article is a little over the top.
I do not agree with the actions of the PAD mob when confronting the police.

Perhaps. But in a situation where the police actually behaved correctly they were prevented from doing their duty. I find it strange that people can complain about the notoriously improper behaviour of the Thai Police and then complain again when they do behave properly. In this case they were behaving like a real police force, I see that as something to be encouraged rather than denigrated.

Originally Posted by baldrick

Sondhi did and interview with Shawn Crispin with the ATol ( which I believe is owned by the manager group )
Asia Times Online :: Southeast Asia news and business from Indonesia, Philippines, Thailand, Malaysia and Vietnam

I found this by Sondhi to be interesting.

ATol: Do you think the old politics are flawed because provincial voters lack political maturity or because they lack good electoral choices?

Sondhi: The provincial, rural people lack access to the right information because whoever is in government always controls the media. The reason the [PAD] movement is successful is because of ASTV. Without ASTV, there is absolutely no way this movement is feasible. ASTV is the only channel that has the courage to stand up and tell the people exactly what this government has done to the country.

The government has literally used former Channel 11 and changed it into NBT [National Broadcasting of Thailand] to propagandize issues. They completely lie every day about what they did, about what we did. So people start to wonder who is right and who is wrong. But as times goes on, more and more people are joining us.

So access to the right information is very crucial [to democratization of the provinces]. We have never had that before, never. Secondly, we have to find a way where the organizations and commissions that are supposed to be set up to check and balance the political process must be free from political interference, which is very difficult to do, very difficult, because they keep buying the people.

The whole thing happened because the Election Commission has never done its job. They closed one eye and took bribes and let cheating MPs into the parliament.

I note that Sondhi does not want people to have access to information but rather that they should have access to "correct" information. Who decides on the correctness of this information? I think people should have access to all information and make their own minds up, in general I think that they do. Rural Thailand is not the interior of New Guinea and is hardly cut off from sources of information. It is absolutely obvious that both sides of this conflict are liars and both wish to control information sources, luckily, these days, total control of information is almost impossible. Saying that people need to be given access to "correct" information is just another way of saying that they cannot think for themselves. Shawn Crispin is an excellent interviewer and in this and the interview he did with Sondhi last year he managed to get much more information than Sondhi thought he was revealing. In this interview Sondhi revealed his contempt for the people and his lack of any plans or policies for the next stage, his accusation that the EC took bribes is also very interesting, I presume he has proof which he will be offering any day now. There are also a number of statements in that interview which are either outright lies or point to some kind of bizarre international media conspiracy to cover up the facts of what's happening in Thailand. Don't get me worng, I do not support Samak, he is a thug and a criminal, but I do not support Sondhi either, he is no better than Samak and in some ways worse.

Originally Posted by Slipstream

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by baldrick

Originally Posted by sabang

To counter the several thousand bussed in southern protesters (scum) occupying government house and laying siege to other government installations and airports.

they also came armed with machettes and clubs ?

Peaceful PAD protestors explaining Sondhi's "New Politics" to a Pro-Govenrment supporter.


Thai PM declares state of emergency in capital - CNN.com

They are as bad as each other, they want to play at running with the big dogs, they are gonna get bit now and again. It's just the way it goes folks, don't lose to much sleep over it.

I agree, I think it's important to understand what the two sides are really all about and not to fall for the spin. There are no good guys in this and damned if I know a way out. It seems to me that no matter who wins it won't be the plain people of Thailand and that there's a long hard road ahead for this country.

^ Well, Bob it is a fact that Sondi's show was cancelled by Thaksin himself immediately after he criticised Thaksin. And many of the original ITV staff were fired for not going along with only pro-Thaksin propaganda. Thaksin had a grip over the media and that's why ASTV came into being in the first place. I'm just curious do you think Fox News is "Fair and Balanced"? Personally I think Sondi is a bit nutty but many of the things that he has accused Thaksin of have are being considered in the courts. While Thaksin was in he was considered untouchable and none of the news channels really went after him as far as I know. You can blame it all on the Thais themselves though for wanting empty TV and for not making their leaders accountable. What do you think of when you think of Thailand? Sabai Sabai.

Samak's verdict to be announced later this afternoon.
Could stir the pot a bit.

Originally Posted by good2bhappy

Could stir the pot a bit.

Will give the PAD another item to add to their rhetoric but will have little effect on the status quo. PPP and coalition parties have pledged to support Samak in spite of a negative ruling by the court.

Could be a nice way to end this with both parties getting something. Samak coudl get booted then relected and the PAD could see Samak leave office. Samak should become a chef. Wouldn't you rather see someone like him cooking on TV? He's a better chef. Maybe the US embassy can hook him up with a cooking TV show in the US. He'd probably jump for that. I'm sure a lot of American would like him so long as they don't know of his past. He would also be promoting Thailand and its culture at the same time.

will try to cook the books at the UN next week?

At the UN
Samak: Democracy is like cooking. If you want to make an omelette you have to crack eggs(heads)

Originally Posted by DrB0b

I think that the Thai people deserve better than the crooks, thieves, and thugs, endlessly recycled, that make up their governments.

They deserve a Government that reflects Thailand and its people.

This Government does that admirably.

Somsak: Each District Receives Bht 150,000 to Support Samak Administration

Another key PAD leader Somsak Kosaisuk claimed the ‘proxy’ government has paid each district in Udon Thani Province a sum of 150,000 baht for the locals to gather at a public park to show their support for PM Samak Sundaravej.

Late last night key PAD leader Somsak Kosaisuk took the stage and told the gathering PAD protesters that he has reason to believe that PM Samak Sundaravej will do anything to hang on to his post as the premier of Thailand.

Somsak also claimed that the government has paid locals in each district of Udon Thani Province a sum of 150,000 baht per district to gather in support of the Samak administration, which is holding its Cabinet retreat there. He alleged that the government aims to deceive the public into thinking the government still has an overwhelming support from the people.

But Somsak insists the government has long lost its legitimacy to administer the country and has lost its credibility and even Government House.

Reflecting similar statements made by other PAD leaders, Somsak strongly believes Thailand needs ‘new politics’ that is ideally without corrupt politicians. He also revealed that many solutions have been presented as ways out of the current political deadlock but none of them are acceptable to the PAD. Somsak explained that all the proposed solutions will lead the country right back to the same old money-for-votes politics.

Somsak lashed out at veteran politician Sanoh Thienthong who sided with the PAD during its first mass rally to oust former PM Thaksin Shinawatra. Sanoh later set up a new political party, Pracharaj, and joined the People Power party to set up a coalition government. The PPP has long been accused of being a proxy of Thaksin’s disbanded Thai Rak Thai party.

Chart Thai leader Banharn Silapa-archa did not escape Somsak’s wrath. Somsak likened Banharn’s actions to that of Sanoh, accusing Banharn of conveniently forgetting the five clauses the Chart Thai party has set as conditions for Chart Thai to join the PPP-led coalition government. The five clauses include a demand by the Chart Thai party for the coalition government not to amend the 2007 Constitution.
Thailand Outlook Channel

I think that the Thai people deserve better than the cooks that make up their governments.

^^Not too difficult to believe but I've heard so much bullshit coming from that stage that I wouldn't believe Somsak or Sondhi if they told us the sky was up and the earth was down, that article isn't even news, It's just a claim. Both sides are making ridiculous claims. Rattanaburi, why are you so susceptible to propaganda? You seem to have a reasonable grip on some of the basic issues but to be woefully lacking in background and detail. What, aside from the corruption issue, on which we agree, do you think is so worthwhile about the PAD's offering and why do you seem to think that Sondhi is less of a crook then Thaksin and Samak?