Thread: Thaksin: All 2010 Riot Victims Will Be Paid

Originally Posted by robuzo

Originally Posted by nostromo

Originally Posted by robuzo

^For people supposedly bent on burning down Bangkok, they sure were focused. My money would have been on Gaysorn going down in flames, not the comparatively proletarian Central. Seen what it's been replaced with? Amongst other things, the biggest UNIQLO I've ever seen, including in Japan, of course at prices about 30~40% higher than in Tokyo.

There were no people "bent on burning down Bangkok", at least on red shirts side. Some silly bastard just said that in the heat of the moment. Masses of ordinary people there, from Isaan, Chiang Mai, Bangkok - well they could really have burned down Bangkok if they wanted to. They did not.

You don't really get sarcasm, do you?

OK. Right. Sorry then.

And the important bit once more...

12.00pm:
Ben Doherty says the street of Bangkok are emptying ahead of the curfew but there are still pockets of violence, gunshots and several burning buildings.
"I'm looking now at smoke billowing from the stock exchange building," he says as he discusses attacks onThai media buildings, banks and shopping centres.
Many redshirts have completely ignored a edict to surrender from some protest leaders, he says. "Red Radio was broadcasting message like 'If you are near a bank set it on fire'. There is an element that is refusing to abide by the surrender," Ben says.

Originally Posted by S Landreth

Originally Posted by nostromo

reds

They did burn down City Hall in Khon Kaen. I was there and filmed it,...

and the NBT station here in Khon Kaen,.........

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

But, as usual, certain people seek to focus on Central World, as if this was the only place torched.....

Actually it was only 1 in over 30++ others.

3 small malls were destroyed near where I lived. Hundreds of small businesses destroyed. Livelihoods wrecked. But yeah, lets all focus our attention on Central World....

Your vids show smoke coming up. Bloody weak evidence we would call it.

lets have a bit more from Ben shall we ...............

As Bangkok suffers its worst political unrest for two decades, the Thai army has declared parts of the city "live-fire zones", warning that anyone found entering certain roads in the capital will be shot on sight.

The move came as one of the leaders of the redshirt protesters said that there would be "civil war" if the army did not pull back and declare a ceasefire.

snip

Troops have erected signs at Ratchaprarop Road, on the northern edge of the redshirts' camp, warning, in Thai and English: "No Entry, Restricted Area. Live Firing Zone".

snip

"We are all very afraid," Somchai Sanwong said as he manned the barricades, a few hundred yards from troop positions.

The redshirts have piles of rocks and Molotov cocktails stashed to hurl at troops when they finally advance. They also have gallons of motor vehicle oil to make the road slippery. Deeper inside the camp, sources say, the redshirts have dozens of M79 rocket-launched grenades. Several were fired last night at an inner-city police station.

"Obviously we're outgunned, outnumbered. In the worst case, if the soldiers come, we'll just burn the barricades," Somchai said.

and finally

Already there are reports of food shortages. By most estimates, the redshirts can only sustain themselves for a few more days.

Redshirts warn of civil war as Thai troops told to shoot on sight | World news | The Observer

and in the vain of SD's overload still more ..................

again from Ben

"Troops are moving into the redshirts central city protest camp firing indiscriminately, as they seek to take back control of the capital's streets.

snip

Moving up Ratchadamri Road, troops fired indiscriminately. Journalists, ambulances and paramedics all attracted fire.

snip

Bangkok has descended into open warfare, says Ben Doherty reporting from the Foreign Correspondents Club amidst the gunfire in central Bangkok.

Redshirts warn of civil war as Thai troops told to shoot on sight | World news | The Observer

and all it would have taken to avoid all this is a couple more days till the food ran out ..........................

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

And the important bit once more...

12.00pm:
Ben Doherty says the street of Bangkok are emptying ahead of the curfew but there are still pockets of violence, gunshots and several burning buildings.
"I'm looking now at smoke billowing from the stock exchange building," he says as he discusses attacks onThai media buildings, banks and shopping centres.
Many redshirts have completely ignored a edict to surrender from some protest leaders, he says. "Red Radio was broadcasting message like 'If you are near a bank set it on fire'. There is an element that is refusing to abide by the surrender," Ben says.

I live in Bangkok and saw no violence, burning of anything. Later on I saw black smoke coming from direction of Central.

^^ Thanks for the posts Mid.

I don't think anyone is denying that troops opened fire on civilians. I was shot at twice, I saw 2 people shot. And I saw bullets flying at the red shirts from the army on many occasions.

I think the point is that a lot of people deny the role the red shirts played.

Both sides are guilty of crimes.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

I think the point is that a lot of people deny the role the red shirts played.

au contraire , the point is the denial of the role the authorities played .

Originally Posted by nostromo

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

And the important bit once more...

12.00pm:
Ben Doherty says the street of Bangkok are emptying ahead of the curfew but there are still pockets of violence, gunshots and several burning buildings.
"I'm looking now at smoke billowing from the stock exchange building," he says as he discusses attacks onThai media buildings, banks and shopping centres.
Many redshirts have completely ignored a edict to surrender from some protest leaders, he says. "Red Radio was broadcasting message like 'If you are near a bank set it on fire'. There is an element that is refusing to abide by the surrender," Ben says.

I live in Bangkok and saw no violence, burning of anything. Later on I saw black smoke coming from direction of Central.

Strange as everyone else saw smoke....check the photos below. You must have been busy, right? Check the times on the photos too. The smoke was all day, as was the violence and murder. I think it would be fair and reasonable to suggest, after your above post Nostromo, that you don't have a clue about anything.


Ben Doherty
8.40am:

Since redshirt leaders have conceded their protest is lost, the gunfire has decreased in recent minutes, but there are still volleys being fired at the camp, and by reds protesters at advancing troops. It will take several hours before troops can be confident they have central Bangkok under control. Undoubtedly, there will be pockets of resistance from within the redshirts. Many in the paramilitary wing of the redshirts remain armed and have vowed to fight to the death.

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The Stock Exchange is ablaze. Flames twice as bad since I've ... on Twitpic


648 days ago
The Stock Exchange is ablaze. Flames twice as bad since I've uploaded this.

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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by AlertNet_Thin on May 19, 2010 at 7:33 AM

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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by Russell Boyce on May 19, 2010 at 8:02 AM

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View over Silom, 7.45am May 19th



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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by Russell Boyce on May 19, 2010 at 8:21 AM

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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by AlertNet_Thin on May 19, 2010 at 10:32 AM

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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by AlertNet_Thin on May 19, 2010 at 10:46 AM

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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by AlertNet_Thin on May 19, 2010 at 10:48 AM

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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by Russell Boyce on May 19, 2010 at 2:53 PM

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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by Russell Boyce on May 19, 2010 at 5:56 PM
An anti government "red shirt" protester walks by a shopping mall that was ransacked and set on fire during clashes in central Bangkok May 19, 2010. Anti-government protest leaders in Thailand surrendered to police on Wednesday after troops stormed their encampment, sparking clashes that killed at least four people, but violence rocked other areas of the city. REUTERS/stringer

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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by Russell Boyce on May 19, 2010 at 5:58 PM
Smoke rises at a shopping mall that was ransacked and set on fire during clashes in central Bangkok May 19, 2010. Anti-government protest leaders in Thailand surrendered to police on Wednesday after troops stormed their encampment, sparking clashes that killed at least four people, but violence rocked other areas of the city. REUTERS/Chaiwat Subprasom

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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by Russell Boyce on May 19, 2010 at 6:35 PM
Smoke rises at Central World shopping mall that was ransacked and set on fire during clashes in central Bangkok May 19, 2010. Bangkok's Central World, Southeast Asia's second-biggest department store, was destroyed by fire during riots following a crackdown on anti-government protesters, a Reuters witness said. REUTERS/Chaiwat Subprasom

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Bangkok protests | Liveblog live blogging | Reuters.com


by Russell Boyce on May 19, 2010 at 1:39 PM
A Thai army soldier crouches behind a street sign near the body of a protester who was killed during an operation to evict anti-government "red shirt" protesters from their encampment in Bangkok May 19, 2010. Thai troops and armoured vehicles broke through barricades of tyres and staves on Wednesday in a fresh offensive to evict thousands of anti-government protesters from their fortified camp in central Bangkok, witnesses said. REUTERS/Damir Sagolj

Originally Posted by robuzo

There have been prosecutions for the Central World fire- pretty dodgy, considering the military were in control of the area when the place got torched

Genuine question, because you seem sure of your facts.

What time did the Army take control and what time did it burn presumably at their hands?

Originally Posted by nostromo

Originally Posted by BobR

Compensated for what, burning their fingers while torching Central World? Utter madness.

To this day, we do not actually know who burned central world, or zen side of it to be precise. Security cameras show men in black ( !))
Might as well be "some" party who wanted reds look bad, to get the killing move on, or plain looters.

BobR I say this to you because I appreciate something you have said earlier.

You're right, thank you I admit my mistake. I should know better than to assume anything when politics are involved.

Originally Posted by Mid

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

I think the point is that a lot of people deny the role the red shirts played.

au contraire , the point is the denial of the role the authorities played .

Fair enough, but you wont have any denials on that from me. I saw the army shooting at protesters and there is a huge amount of evidence on this too.

My take has always been, the army murdered civilians. The red shirts torched and looted buildings...and there were some armed red/black shirts amongst the mostly unarmed civilians....

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Fair enough, but you wont have any denials on that from me. I saw the army shooting at protesters and there is a huge amount of evidence on this too.
My take has always been, the army murdered civilians. The red shirts torched and looted buildings...and there were some armed red/black shirts amongst the mostly unarmed civilians....

Exactly.

Originally Posted by Bobcock

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Fair enough, but you wont have any denials on that from me. I saw the army shooting at protesters and there is a huge amount of evidence on this too.
My take has always been, the army murdered civilians. The red shirts torched and looted buildings...and there were some armed red/black shirts amongst the mostly unarmed civilians....

Exactly.

How is "murdered civilians" the equivalent to "torched and looted [empty] buildings"? The army were not only shooting at protesters, they murdered people taking refuge in a temple. To create a false equivalence between that and vandalism is obscene. You should be ashamed.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The smoke was all day

Most of the smoke was from the demonstrators burning tires. A useful tool when you have gutless snipers around....

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The red shirts torched and looted buildings

whoopy feckin doo... Quite justifiable after the murderous behaviour of the authorities.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

...and there were some armed red/black shirts amongst the mostly unarmed civilians....

The jury is still out on who were the so called blackshirts, their numbers and which side were they actually on.

Originally Posted by robuzo

Originally Posted by Bobcock

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

Fair enough, but you wont have any denials on that from me. I saw the army shooting at protesters and there is a huge amount of evidence on this too.
My take has always been, the army murdered civilians. The red shirts torched and looted buildings...and there were some armed red/black shirts amongst the mostly unarmed civilians....

Exactly.

How is "murdered civilians" the equivalent to "torched and looted [empty] buildings"? The army were not only shooting at protesters, they murdered people taking refuge in a temple. To create a false equivalence between that and vandalism is obscene. You should be ashamed.

No one is creating a false equivalence. Only you. You interpret the words as written, due to your own bias and abilities.

The fact that you think anyone is doing this is highly insulting.

Originally Posted by DroversDog

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

The red shirts torched and looted buildings

whoopy feckin doo... Quite justifiable after the murderous behaviour of the authorities.

Originally Posted by StrontiumDog

...and there were some armed red/black shirts amongst the mostly unarmed civilians....

The jury is still out on who were the so called blackshirts, their numbers and which side were they actually on.

See my reply to Robuzo for the first part of your crap.

As regards who the black shirts were...or are....

Chalerm says they were/are the police.

Originally Posted by tomta

It has to be repeated again and again. The army still denies causing any deaths or injuries through shooting at people as far as I am aware. People are denying it.

Link? Where are they *still* denying it?

Originally Posted by Gerbil

Quote: Originally Posted by tomta It has to be repeated again and again. The army still denies causing any deaths or injuries through shooting at people as far as I am aware. People are denying it. Link? Where are they *still* denying it?

Gerbil. They have denied responsibility for every wound or death caused. They have not admitted to the responsibility even for non-lethal wounds. They are denying it by their silence now about these events.

They deny it in the same way that they have denied the events of 1976 and 1992 such that Samak was able to say that only one protester was killed in 1976. They are able to deny it because they are never held to account for it.

They do not anymore parade their blanket denials in public because it would be totally absurd. But as long as they feel unable to state publicly that they caused even some injuries or deaths then they are denying that they caused them. This question came up in another thread and I will repeat my answer here because I put it better there:

"Mr Lick

The government and army has not come out with one single statement covering the events of April and May that denies responsibility for every death. That would be so patently ridiculous that their case would be revealed as absolutely laughable.

What they do is simply to deny responsibility for every particular death or even wound that the troops are accused of causing. Have you seen one instance of the government or army accepting responsibility for a death or injury? Have the complete results of one autopsy been published six months after the events ? [And now, Gerbil, can you find anything like this even two years after the events]

This shouldn't be too hard. The government could say "Soldier X shot and wounded protestor Y with such and such a gun and ammunition while Protestor Y was looting/shooting/burning." Such an admission would be a propaganda victory for the government in that it would tend to justify their argument that they were using legitimate force. They've had six months to come up with just one such story and haven't done so.

Mid has provided you with a link to a denial of responsibility for the the shootings at Phan Fa in April. It should be remembered that at first they denied using live bullets. They only admitted to using live bullets when the evidence was so overwhelming that it was pointless to continue their denials.

You must have seen their denials of prominent cases like the shooting of Seh Daeng. Here is Anupong's denial of responsibility for the shootings at Wat Panatharum Bangkok Post : Anupong: Troops didn't kill at temple

You will notice in this article that Anupong claims to have evidence that they didn't shoot anyone but he chooses not to reveal it.

These denials are part of a pattern . Has the army admitted to the killings in 1973, 1976, 1992, No. Tak bai, Kru Sae? Sort of but it was all an accident. Has any army disciplinary committee reccommended that particular persons be charged for these events? Has anyone been charged?

The army and the government has a culture of denial and lying. Look at this typical statement from Sonthi, made during the planning stages of the coup: "The army will not get involved in the political conflict. Political troubles should be resolved by politicians. Military coups are a thing of the past.", 6 March 2006, (Wikipedia).

The denial is perpetrated by many means: lying, active denial of particular events, asserting that the "men in black " shot those on their own side, asserting that the army would never harm the Thai people,refusing to respond to or counter particular allegations with credible evidence, waiting till everyone despairs of getting the truth and gives up asking questions, saying the accusations are all from ill-intentioned people who want to destroy the state and overthrow the monarchy, and setting up"independent" commissions (whose reports are due in three years) with an emphasis on "reconciliation" not on "truth".

The denial is not a single event; it is a process. And it is serving its purposes as the same process has done before in Thailand."

https://teakdoor.com/thailand-and-asi...ml#post1603178 (Investigators fail to identify killers of foreign journalists)

Originally Posted by Gerbil

Link? Where are they *still* denying it?

As I said it's a process of denial and I have not seen anything that has indicated that the army admits responsibility even for lawfully causing death or injury but if you can provide a link to the army admitting that their soldiers and ammunition caused deaths in April/May 2010, then I will happily revise my ideas about this. I have not seen anything like that.