Thread: TPN Demonstrate outside Thammasat and Burn Effigy of Head of Nitirat Group

Yes I fully agree with you. I think they have no choice but to back off (and it looks like that's what they're doing).

Nitirat haven't. They're - I think - holding a seminar in Book Republic in Chiang Mai tomorrow, if any Chiang Mai residents are interested.

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A group calling themselves the new generation gather at Royal Plaza amid the rain to oppose amendment to lese majeste law and Nitirat Group

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A group calling themselves the real people against the self-interested-corrupt-guanxi-connected chink minority gather at Tom Sawyer's House to laugh at the group calling themselves the new generation

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^
Interesting that's been all but forgotten hasn't it - good post BB!

^ just as all the King's speeches and comments over the years on the same subject have been ignored... endless examples...

Originally Posted by Dan

That's a non-argument. Any progressive change is - pretty much by definition - going to upset the establishment. Not acting because it's going to get piss off your elders and betters is the curse of this country and it's not going to be remedied by doing it even more.

Progressive change is about going after what you can win now and what you cannot later. The all or nothing approach rarely works irrespective of whoever you win or not. The LM laws are a sacred cow, there is no chance of reform at this moment in time

Originally Posted by Dan

And there are clearly a million reforms one could make in Thailand or in any other country one might pick but they're not exclusive - you could reform 112 and other laws - and they're not what people care about and think are important. When you've been shat on consistently for years, you're not going to be looking forward to the establishment of a fucking small claims court and, frankly, it's a completely bizarre idea that after the earthquake of the last few years, this would seem like some kind of attractive alternative. Really. I can't begin to understand how anyone who has paid even the faintest of attention to the events of the past 5 years could think that you could substitute one for the other.

I was under the impression that the issues that were most important to people in this country were issues like access to education, land titles, national ID cards, access to health care, predatory business practices and generally been seen as uttly powerless by businesses and government officers. What have these got to reforming LM law. nothing.

These are issues which can be felt with quite successfully through legal reform, even in countries like india. civil servants generally prefer to do their jobs correctly rather than have to formally explain why they are not. businessmen generally do not want the hassle of having to defend themselves in a case they are going to loose or have to buy the verdict they want. Is this not a better option than ripping the country apart as a proxy for one of the two groups of elites fighting it out for ownership of the rents that the thai economy generates?

Do you really think that the lm laws impact on freedom of speech, discourse or civil rights is anywhere as profound as the corrosive effect of thailand's libel laws?

^ you're going off at a tangent.

The LM laws are the most powerful laws in the country and they are clearly being used for political purposes, they have been strengthend by a coup and coup installed government to act as a line of defence for themselves, it's a total abuse of the laws.

Examples of this are:

1) the royal group themselves; they want the laws changed and cite the laws as harming the Monarchy.
2) the massive increase in their use since the coup, clearly for poltical purposes.
3) the DSI/army list that was put out during the political protests as a means for sweeping powers and imprisonment; now the DSI are backing right off and accepting that 'mistakes' were made, but it is the massive political abuse of these enormously powerful laws that was used to silence many political voices; the army general has even threatened academics with these laws, purely for political purposes!

The royal group themselves want the laws changed; they do not want them abused for poitical purposes - they were very clear...

Very reminiscent of Islamic demonstrations calling for beheading the infidel. Maybe the USA needs to send a Navy Seal team to Bangkok.

^^Yes thats all very true.

but at the end of the day. how many stories get self censored by the press for fears of LM or how many get censored because the paper and the journalist don't want to go though the crap andrew drummand went though with his story about the two drag queens of pattaya? would you not agree that the libel law in thailand gives criminally minded businessman and politicians a level of protection which whilst, less draconian, similar protections as LM when it comes to stopping people saying bad things about you.


Do you not think that giving people the tools they need to challenge the civil service might start a grass routes anti corruption campaign as is slowly starting in india?

All I am saying is that discussing LM reform at this moment is time is pointless because its playing into the hands of the establishment with no chance of success and that there are areas of reform which are much less defendable, which could have a much bigger impact on the daily lives of the majority of thailand.

I would like to see LM reform, but the pragmatic side of me says don't fall into traps and fight the battles which have a positive impact and can be won.

Originally Posted by hazz

Do you not think that giving people the tools they need to challenge the civil service might start a grass routes anti corruption campaign

Nope, the patronage system in Thailand is feudal so challenging the 'civil service' is meaningless; it's a distraction - 'politicians are corrupt' is a distraction, a dangerous distraction too because it leads to 'the army must save us from these bad politicians, we must have a coup', as per the PAD are singing now...

Originally Posted by hazz

All I am saying is that discussing LM reform at this moment is time is pointless

When the abuses of the LM laws for political gain are at their most obvious and most socially divisive is the time to highlight and change them; as we have seen by the royal group over the last few weeks, they clearly agree with me that now is the time to change them - they said so, very directly and clearly...

I was under the impression that the issues that were most important to people in this country were issues like access to education, land titles, national ID cards, access to health care, predatory business practices and generally been seen as uttly powerless by businesses and government officers. What have these got to reforming LM law. nothing.

If you actually bother to read the section YOU quoted, you'll see that I've already answered this but to repeat myself: they're not exclusive and LM is - for one section of Thai society - a huge issue. But since you get your news from third-rate arsewipe (and arsewipe which has an ideological ax to grind the size of a planet), you'll be unaware of this. There's also the small matter than part of the Nitirat proposals are that as part of the coronation, future kings should swear to uphold the constitution. For pretty fucking obvious reasons this is not something which can be put off for very long.

Progressive change is about going after what you can win now and what you cannot later. The all or nothing approach rarely works irrespective of whoever you win or not.

More rubbish. Nitirat are putting forward a set of proposals which may or may not become law.

So you all think that reforming the lm laws would have a major impact the levels of anger and frustration in this country. That it would make a major dent upon the issues caused by patronage, double standards and corruption. And that going for this change now is worth the risk of giving the army and others the excuse they want for a coupe? Look around the world, turkey comes to mind, attacking the sacred cows of an army with a history of coups rarely achieves anything positive, so whats the point, the moral victory? especially when you consider what the political landscape in 5 to 10 years from now will be far more agreeable to change.

Again look around the world you will see that the issues facing thailand are not unique. many countries are cursed by patronage, double standards and corruption. How many of them have lm laws? almost none, most don't even have monarchies. So why is it so reasonable to believe that lm laws are at the root of this.

If you want to attack patronage, you have to remove its power. That power comes from the ability of the patron to grant favours. Wether its the village head man you need to countersign a document, the superior who gives you that promotion or the government official that grants you a contract or signs off the payments or even someone who can grant that lovely nobilic title to bolster that fragile ego. These are the tools that patrons derive their power. removing these tools from the patrons would achieve much more than reforming the lm laws.

^ needs to be tackled from the top down, not the other way.

The LM laws have been increasingly used for politcal goals since the last coup, and that needs to be stopped. Simple as that. The group of royals have said it needs changing too, what does that very important fact get ignored by some?

There are two interesting polls going on thaienews at the moment (for those who don't know, it's one of the main Thai liberal/left blogs). With the obvious provision that internet polls are a bit dodgy:

If there were an election tomorrow, who would you vote for (337 votes so far, 6 more days to vote):

Peua Thai - 87 (25%)
Any party that supported the Nitirat proposals – 236 (70%)
The Democrats – 7 (2%)
Phumjai Thai – 0 (0%)
Chuwit's party – 3 (0%)
Any party that supports the PAD/multi-coloureds – 2 (0%)
No need for an election, just give the King all the power – 2 (0%)

Yingluck says we should stop talking about reforming 112 and we should concentrate on solving economic problems instead (1693 votes, 2 more days to vote).

Absolutely agree – 179 (10%)
Absolutely disagree – 173 (10%)
We need to reform 112 and solve economic problems – 1322 (78%)
Other – 19 (1%)

Obviously not listening to Hazz's wise words. What fools they are.

The problem is if you look at history, top down reforms often require revolutions which in the short and medium term don't lead to particularly pleasant governments. I will freely admit problem with bottom up reforms is that you do need a strong civic society which is embryonic in thailand.

That's what Gi Ungrgkraporn argues as the central premise in A Coup For the Rich. He says the rise of Thaksin and PAD are two sides of the same coin. A failure of the left to organize a proper civic society. I think he's correct.

^^ Like the 1945 Labour government, you mean?

Originally Posted by dtalok

Thai politics are great
So Taksin won [bought, whatever i dont care] a couple elections, got couped [sic] then his BROTHER IN LAW won an election, after that his NOMINEE won an election, then his SISTER won an election.
what the hell does he need to do, elect his dog?

Getting an office for one's dog is above even Thaksin's pay grade.

Originally Posted by robuzo

Getting an office for one's dog is above even Thaksin's pay grade.

Be careful there, Robuzo. Talking about people getting offices for a dog could lead to LM territory.