Thread: TPN Demonstrate outside Thammasat and Burn Effigy of Head of Nitirat Group

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

That's what Gi Ungrgkraporn argues as the central premise in A Coup For the Rich. He says the rise of Thaksin and PAD are two sides of the same coin. A failure of the left to organize a proper civic society. I think he's correct.

I would go along with this and the questions that need answering is why has civic society failed to form in thailand and what needs to be done grow it. Given that much of the framework that allowed that 1945 labour victory in the uk was patiently laid by various civic groups over the previous 70 years or more, the question is more how do you grow a civic society in thailand more quickly than this.

My own personal guess is that anyone who is civic minded and actually does something useful is very likely to find themselves upsetting the kind of people who have them murdered. Rather like the recent murder of a journalist in puket and a few emviromentialists a couple of years ago. Then you have the issue of organisations that could seed civic societies being co-opted by the kind of people who join PAD.

Dan the problem is that for the 1945 labour victory and its top down reforms, you also have the USSR, eastern europe, iran, iraq, china, north korea, veitnam, cambodia, spain, as a few examples where revolution lead to seriously unpleasant governments which were/are probably every bit as bad as the governments they replaced and have/are taking generations to fix. Its what killed my initial enthusiasm for revolutions as a method for rapid social reform.

^ My point in mentioning the 1945 government was simply to highlight the absurdity of trying to analyse what is happening here, in Thailand, in 2012 through a review of your O level history. What matters is what's happening now, not ludicrous comparisons with Soviet Russia. As for your knowledge of Thai civil society, where does that come from? To talk intelligently about this, you would need to be fairly close to the ground and it's patently obvious that you're not.

PAD/ TPN calling for another illegal and unconstitutional seizure of power is an act of high treason, nothing less. Shame that the thai 'judiciary' is more interested in pursuing politically motivated LM charges instead. A 'judiciary' that doesn't protect the same national constitution it was appointed to uphold is a judiciary in name only, and should be replaced with a real judiciary that actually does it's job, a very important job. And what to say about the bangkok 'media', which is cramming down our throat that the Nitirat proposals- which are democratically sound, and legal- are in some way radical. Not that anyone listens to them of course, except perhaps misinformed westerners who have no insight into thailand beside it's totally unrepresentative English language 'media'.

Originally Posted by hazz

40 years ago they would not have been carrying placards with threats, but storming the university and lynching the students. One has to wonder if this is a sign of progress or simply samak is dead and not cheering them on?

Actually I think you are more likely to find a participate in the UDD demonstrations, particularly those in the streets on Rama IV and Ding Daeng, would have family that were part of the mob storming the university and lynching the students rather then a person that was inside the university at that time. You don’t find the fact Thaksin chose Samak as his proxy in the 2007 election somewhat telling?

I certainly agree that making economic improvements and dismantling the patronage system should be the highest priority. But, if the UDD had included anything about these issues in its platform it would have never been allowed to grow to what is now. As for the TRT/PPP/PTP, it has been and always will be a party of the establishment populated by leaders and supporters that have always been fully fledged members of the ruling elite.

The alliance between the UDD and TRT/PPP/PTP is only one of convenience that is already showing signs of stress. Their respective goals are actually mutually exclusive.

TH

Very well said, Sabang.

It is high treason. So was the seizure of Government House by the PAD. Unfortunately, because of their very hi-so backer, then like now - none of them will be prosecuted, much less punished.

Originally Posted by sabang

PAD/ TPN calling for another illegal and unconstitutional seizure of power is an act of high treason, nothing less....

Actually , “calling” for a coup is not high treason, taking action towards a coup is.
Do you not consider it somewhat hypocritical for you to brand this fringe group's hate filled speeches calling for a coup as “high treason”, yet you do not consider similar hate filled speeches calling for people to bring a liter bottle to Bangkok to be filled with gasoline in order to burn down Bangkok (or other provincial capitals) to also be “high treason”?
TH

Originally Posted by Dan

^ My point in mentioning the 1945 government was simply to highlight the absurdity of trying to analyse what is happening here, in Thailand, in 2012 through a review of your O level history. What matters is what's happening now, not ludicrous comparisons with Soviet Russia. As for your knowledge of Thai civil society, where does that come from? To talk intelligently about this, you would need to be fairly close to the ground and it's patently obvious that you're not.

Personally I think a lot can be learnt from the mistakes of the past. I do not see anything in thailand that would suggest that a revolution would end any better than the revolutions in other countries at other times. And again history shows that its rare for politicians to implement top down reform without a rocket up their arse. And that rocket is civic society.

But then your not alone in believing history is irrelevant, thailands generals don't seem to be put off by a long history of coups failing to achieve their aims either.

I am left wondering if what you really mean is that to talk intelligently about this people must agree with everything you do, if they don't then obviously they must know nothing. because you rebuttals are rather lacking anything beyond this.

I do not see anything in thailand that would suggest that a revolution would end any better than the revolutions in other countries at other times.

I'm not sure how low The Nation or the Bangkok Post have stooped recently, but I can assure that there isn't a revolution going on. Really, there isn't. You've got a wildly reactionary establishment, a moderately reactionary or very mildly reformist government, depending on what's at issue, and a hugely complicated set of public opinions which pull in multiple directions. But no revolution. And, just for the record, not really anyone who can usefully be called fascist (it's a largely useless word and I don't think it does anything very useful in describing what's happening in Thailand).

I am left wondering if what you really mean is that to talk intelligently about this people must agree with everything you do, if they don't then obviously they must know nothing. because you rebuttals are rather lacking anything beyond this.

Not at all but unlike the he-said-she-said threads, this isn't something you can comment on very usefully unless you really have an understanding that goes beyond the bollocks you read in the English-language media and I think it's pretty obvious that you don't - Exhibit A: instead of arguing for reform of 112, everyone should be happy with a small claims court. WTF? Exhibit B: The UDD and PPT are fascists. Least said soonest mended, eh. Exhibit C: Thailand lacks the civic society necessary for a reforming government. How could you possibly know that? What's your contact? If Andrew Drummond is the example you choose to illustrate problems with the media, it's not looking good. Where are the examples to illustrate what you say? Fatuous (and largely mysterious) comparisons with the Soviet Union notwithstanding, I can't see them. Now, I'm not claiming any expertise for myself. I'm a firm believer in the Socratic version of wisdom and the more I read the Thai media (especially social media, forums and blogs), the more I realise that I lack both a lot of knowledge and, much more importantly, an understanding of the cultural or sociological system necessary to put what I read into a worthwhile framework. An example of this: there was an hour-long programme on Voice TV yesterday and some articles in Matichon both talking about how the 112 arguments were an argument over what it means to be Thai. That seems highly possible but I can't make sense of these arguments (I lack the depth of cultural knowledge) and neither, I'm fairly sure, can you and that's why I've tried to restrict myself to factual posts in this regard (tried but failed, though not too badly I think). And this is not another version of 'Foreigners can't understand'. Of course they can but there are hurdles to be cleared first and most of us haven't cleared them. In fact, DrBob is about the only person I can remember reading on this forum who had cleared them, though there might well be others.

^ My point in mentioning the 1945 government was simply to highlight the absurdity of trying to analyse what is happening here, in Thailand, in 2012 through a review of your O level history. What matters is what's happening now, not ludicrous comparisons with Soviet Russia. As for your knowledge of Thai civil society, where does that come from? To talk intelligently about this, you would need to be fairly close to the ground and it's patently obvious that you're not.

Democracy in Thailand - how to achieve it

Do everything to purge vote buying
Do everything possible to make the police force as honest as possible
Highlight and take civic action in cases where ordinary citizens being let down by the police and justice system
Educate the public about the parliamentary system of government

After that the army and elite interference will wither by itself and constitution amendments will actually be of some use.

Is anyone doing anything like this? No there isn't. Just a bunch of useless wankers prancing around being obnoxious, wearing red shirts, and declaring themselves to be dtaa sawang.

Just a little under treason is Sedition, 'Conduct or language inciting rebellion against the authority of a State; Insurrection.
This is also a crime in most countries, not sure about Thailand.

Originally Posted by Thaihome

Actually I think you are more likely to find a participate in the UDD demonstrations, particularly those in the streets on Rama IV and Ding Daeng, would have family that were part of the mob storming the university and lynching the students rather then a person that was inside the university at that time.

TH you should put yourself up for adding to the blinkered history of Thai School History Edumacation department curriculum
I am sure your distorted views would go down like a treat for your yellow shirt buddies.

Originally Posted by hazz

Personally I think a lot can be learnt from the mistakes of the past.

Thanks Einstein. Are you bring to keep your posting average up?

Originally Posted by longway

^ My point in mentioning the 1945 government was simply to highlight the absurdity of trying to analyse what is happening here, in Thailand, in 2012 through a review of your O level history. What matters is what's happening now, not ludicrous comparisons with Soviet Russia. As for your knowledge of Thai civil society, where does that come from? To talk intelligently about this, you would need to be fairly close to the ground and it's patently obvious that you're not.

Democracy in Thailand - how to achieve it

Short Urethra, they have, and it is called elections. You are just pissed that your faggot democrat party smell like shite to Thais.

Originally Posted by longway

Just a bunch of useless wankers prancing around being obnoxious, wearing red shirts, and declaring themselves to be dtaa sawang.

Close to where you live, I am sure Longway.

Originally Posted by Tom Sawyer

Can you name me one Thai NGO or other civil society group (aside from the reds or yellows) that is not beholden to a higher up?

In particular, the Thai Red Cross I have been told.

Originally Posted by DroversDog

Originally Posted by Thaihome

Actually I think you are more likely to find a participate in the UDD demonstrations, particularly those in the streets on Rama IV and Ding Daeng, would have family that were part of the mob storming the university and lynching the students rather then a person that was inside the university at that time.

TH you should put yourself up for adding to the blinkered history of Thai School History Edumacation department curriculum
I am sure your distorted views would go down like a treat for your yellow shirt buddies.

I asked the question in passing on another Post, but the more I think of it, I would be genuinely interested in what TH and his friends would suggest as an alternative reaction, to the pressure tactics of their political brethren.

They like to magnify and present as horribly anti-social, the Red Shirts reaction to their military activism.

When one thinks of the major pressure points which garnered such a reaction, being:

#1 Theft of their Government via a military coup
#2 Trying to ignore out-of-existence, the political demonstrations against said coup.
#3 Finally, giving them a mafia type offer, without negotiation.
#4 Resorting to a murderous military rampage through the anti-coup political demonstration, in order to solidiy their coup based, non-electoral grip on power

In light of that, what would have been an appropriate reaction according to TH and friends, if the feeble Red Shirt fightback was too much for them.

Originally Posted by Dan

and the more I read the Thai media (especially social media, forums and blogs), the more I realise that I lack both a lot of knowledge and, much more importantly, an understanding of the cultural or sociological system necessary to put what I read into a worthwhile framework.

I do enjoy reading your posts on the Thai body politic and I for one am grateful for the thought provoking comments often contained therein.

But I wonder, in your quest for the Holy Grail are you not falling into the same trap in assuming it exists?

The Thai are unique in that they are perhaps the only modern day state that has never been melded in adversity faced from without and within. They have arrived at a point where I suspect most are bewildered to be. They have no defined political creed, doctrine or dogma they might follow except for an atavistic acceptance of the natural order of things underpinned by the spiritual conviction you get what you deserve. Political divisions reflect this and are often no more than incoherent lines drawn out of an opportunism so pragmatic as to defy any rational understanding.

In truth I believe there is no cultural or sociological system worth its name to be found and it is only with the realisation of this that one can begin to comprehend the chaos in which they exist.

Back in 2003 I think it was, the King opined in his Xmas address to the nation that his people were no more than children.

I think that is the starting point and in gauging the furore surrounding the quite modest proposals to reform the LM laws many of the current political players are simply tapping into the nation's core belief that to meddle with the natural order is to invite destruction. Actually, they are probably right in that it is only this fatuous belief which prevents the country from fragmenting into anarchy.

Plumbing the depths of what passes for Thai society and their culture looking for insights is really quite futile. They are irrational and, like most children, quite capricious. There is no substance here, only illusions and our attempts to divine a purpose or logic probably tells us more about ourselves than anything else.

As your icon Socrates preached, maybe there are only questions.

^ The short comment on that is that it’s just your standard post re-fashioned to fit a slightly more unlikely thread than usual. The longer comment is that you couldn't possibly be in a position to know anything that you write about - an anthropologically-minded participant-observer you ain’t. By your own admission, you're a complete outsider who practices a kind of apartheid, restricting your contact with Thais (with whom you can’t communicate) to the absolute minimum. I can’t think of any possible circumstances in which that would lead you to have any notable insights into Thai society or which would provide any evidence at all for what you say in your post.

Most of what you have to say is just a slightly expanded version of Thais-are-thick trope but two points:

In truth I believe there is no cultural or sociological system worth its name to be found.

All humans live in cultures (not in the sense of Bach but in the sense of learned social practices and values which impart meaning to the world). It’s a really fundamental feature of our existence.

They have no defined political creed, doctrine or dogma they might follow except for an atavistic acceptance of the natural order of things underpinned by the spiritual conviction you get what you deserve.

That’s not true. I read websites every day which are full of politics and which are the absolute opposite of what you describe. Thai parliamentary politics lacks ideological commitments (or rather, it has ideological commitments but those are generally shared and not made overt) but that doesn’t mean that there are no political contests. After all, what do you think has been going on for the last 5 years?

I rather think you may be confusing collective behaviour patterns with what I meant as a cultural or sociological system demonstrating worth in a permanent, structured, coherent and rational manner operating in the interests of all its citizens, something I think Thailand couldn't be accused of.

You really do believe they're worth the study, don't you?

All power to you Dan.

Still, I do like your prose and of course, I am somewhat mono themed when it comes to Thailand but then, it is a narrow field.