What makes terrorists?

**Mhz** · 20-10-2006, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Originally Posted by Macha

I have been thinking hard to find an answer to this question for a while now. I came up with some observations which I'd like to share and see if other posters agree.

After all, nobody gets out of bed one day and says, "I want to bomb a bus".

Just imagine if one day a foreign army invades your homeland and drives you and your family out of your home at gun point and tells you to leave with just the clothes on your back you and your parents and siblings are thrown out with nowhere to go. You wind up in a makeshift shelter on some barren hills and you have to scratch for your sustenance. Your mother alongwith siblings are crying. YOur father is frail and looks hopeless and your siblings are cold and scared everyday. Many other people in similar circumstances join you. They were all driven out of their homes by the foreign power. There's no water to drink, no sewers, no electricity, no schools and no doctors to help you or your parents / siblings. Imagine living in such conditions for years and growing up in squalor. Then think of how you would feel if you were not allowed to squalid camp without showing an identity card to the soldiers who surround your miserable tin-roof town. The humiliation would be over-whelming.

The only jobs you can find are working in lands that were seized from your parents years before. You labour in the fields and look at the shiny new houses on the land that had been in your family for generations. The people who live there were born in the West and have taken your land with no other excuse than, "God gave it to us". You're a second class citizen with no citizenship rights. Perhaps you join with some of your friends and decide to fight back to regain your land. The soldiers, however, are equipped with tanks and machine guns while all you have are stones or small arms. You lob rocks at the checkpoints in frustration while the soldiers gun down your friends mercilessly. If you get arrested, you are sent to a prison where you're legally tortured and held without trials for years.

Meanwhile, your baby sister has died of malnutrition, your uncle's land was recently seized, your cousin's house was bulldozed to the ground, the ramshackle schools are sealed shut, and chances for any kind of future looks grim. The soldiers laugh at you and you see on the side of suply boxes in the prision storeroom, the words "made in America". Your anger at the soldiers and their people is so great that you begin to transfer some of it to those who are supporting them.

The invaders bomb your whole neighbourhood, storm in your house and rape your 14 years old sister and then kill the whole family before tourching them. You have no one to go to, you're miserable and have no hope for justice. You don't have any army to fight the invaders, you don't have any hope of organised resistance. Then you think about how to exact retribution, and individual acts of violence such as bombings come to mind.

I want to make it short this time. Nothing new and of course your post, like always very one sided. They are bad we are good and blaaa blaa blaa.
War is never good! I was against the Iraq war and the Afghanistan invasion. What the Israelies are doing is of course also not Kosher all the time. But fighting like a women and running like a camel is against the MEN principle of war.
Your story is nothing new to us europeans. We had rape, stealing, bombing, invasion, no water, no electricity, killings , (your words) and even lots more. Actually your little war is peanuts compared to ours.
You know what the difference between us and them ?
LOVE and FORGIVENESS and that is something which is lacking in the ME
And as long you have characters like these running arround

you will never win!

Okay so the Muslims need characters like these to win eh??

**Mhz** · 20-10-2006, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

like always very one sided. They are bad we are good and blaaa blaa blaa.

Okay lets say the palestinians are all wrong. Israelis afre all good.

Who stole the land??

**ceburat** · 20-10-2006, 11:22 AM

Originally Posted by Mhz

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

Originally Posted by Macha

I have been thinking hard to find an answer to this question for a while now. I came up with some observations which I'd like to share and see if other posters agree.

After all, nobody gets out of bed one day and says, "I want to bomb a bus".

Just imagine if one day a foreign army invades your homeland and drives you and your family out of your home at gun point and tells you to leave with just the clothes on your back you and your parents and siblings are thrown out with nowhere to go. You wind up in a makeshift shelter on some barren hills and you have to scratch for your sustenance. Your mother alongwith siblings are crying. YOur father is frail and looks hopeless and your siblings are cold and scared everyday. Many other people in similar circumstances join you. They were all driven out of their homes by the foreign power. There's no water to drink, no sewers, no electricity, no schools and no doctors to help you or your parents / siblings. Imagine living in such conditions for years and growing up in squalor. Then think of how you would feel if you were not allowed to squalid camp without showing an identity card to the soldiers who surround your miserable tin-roof town. The humiliation would be over-whelming.

The only jobs you can find are working in lands that were seized from your parents years before. You labour in the fields and look at the shiny new houses on the land that had been in your family for generations. The people who live there were born in the West and have taken your land with no other excuse than, "God gave it to us". You're a second class citizen with no citizenship rights. Perhaps you join with some of your friends and decide to fight back to regain your land. The soldiers, however, are equipped with tanks and machine guns while all you have are stones or small arms. You lob rocks at the checkpoints in frustration while the soldiers gun down your friends mercilessly. If you get arrested, you are sent to a prison where you're legally tortured and held without trials for years.

Meanwhile, your baby sister has died of malnutrition, your uncle's land was recently seized, your cousin's house was bulldozed to the ground, the ramshackle schools are sealed shut, and chances for any kind of future looks grim. The soldiers laugh at you and you see on the side of suply boxes in the prision storeroom, the words "made in America". Your anger at the soldiers and their people is so great that you begin to transfer some of it to those who are supporting them.

The invaders bomb your whole neighbourhood, storm in your house and rape your 14 years old sister and then kill the whole family before tourching them. You have no one to go to, you're miserable and have no hope for justice. You don't have any army to fight the invaders, you don't have any hope of organised resistance. Then you think about how to exact retribution, and individual acts of violence such as bombings come to mind.

I want to make it short this time. Nothing new and of course your post, like always very one sided. They are bad we are good and blaaa blaa blaa.
War is never good! I was against the Iraq war and the Afghanistan invasion. What the Israelies are doing is of course also not Kosher all the time. But fighting like a women and running like a camel is against the MEN principle of war.
Your story is nothing new to us europeans. We had rape, stealing, bombing, invasion, no water, no electricity, killings , (your words) and even lots more. Actually your little war is peanuts compared to ours.
You know what the difference between us and them ?
LOVE and FORGIVENESS and that is something which is lacking in the ME
And as long you have characters like these running arround

you will never win!

Okay so the Muslims need characters like these to win eh??

You make a good point here man. IMO both are B.S.

**ceburat** · 20-10-2006, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Mhz

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

like always very one sided. They are bad we are good and blaaa blaa blaa.

Okay lets say the palestinians are all wrong. Israelis afre all good.

Who stole the land??

Who owned the land to start with?

Who gave it to whom?

**KID** · 20-10-2006, 11:29 AM

Originally Posted by Mhz

Originally Posted by HermantheGerman

like always very one sided. They are bad we are good and blaaa blaa blaa.

Okay lets say the palestinians are all wrong. Israelis afre all good.

Who stole the land??

GOOD POINT--- WHO INSLAVED THE JEWS AND TOOK THEIR PROPERTY????

NOT THAT I CARE FOR THE JEWS ALL THAT MUCH-- BUT SINCE YA BROUGHT IT UP !!!!!

**Sir Burr** · 20-10-2006, 11:31 AM

This argument, if carried to its logical conclusion would mean that a quarter of the USA would have to be returned to Mexico, the rest + Canada to the native Indians.
England would be given back to the Welsh and Scots, Japan to the Ainu, Australia to the Aborigines and on and on and on.
Migration and conquest has been a major part of human history. You can't turn the clock back.

With regard to the Arabs and Palestine. The Palestinians vacated there home-land voluntarily as they had been forewarned that the Arab nations were going to attack Israel in 1948 and push the Jews into the sea.
They fully expected to go back to their homes once the Arabs had met their objective.
Of course, things didn't work out as planned.

**Mhz** · 20-10-2006, 11:32 AM

Following the defeat of the Ottoman Empire in World War I, the League of Nations granted the British and the French temporary colonial administration over former Ottoman provinces south of present day Turkey. These regions had been called vilayets under the Ottomans, but were referred to as mandates at the time, after the process that allocated them. The two powers drew arbitrary borders, dividing the area into four sections. Three of these — Iraq, Syria, and Lebanon — survive to this day as states.
The fourth section was created from what had been known as "southern Syria". The region was officially named the British Mandate of Palestine, and was called "Falastin" in Arabic and "Palestina (E.I.)" in Hebrew. The British revised its borders repeatedly, but under the direction of Winston Churchill the region was divided along the Jordan River, forming two administrative regions. The portion east of the Jordan River was then known as Transjordan, and later became the Kingdom of Jordan. The area to the west of the Jordan retained the former name of Palestine.
At that time (1922) the population of Palestine consisted of approximately 589,200 Muslims, 83,800 Jews, 71,500 Christians and 7,600 others (1922 census}.[1] However, this area gradually saw a large influx of Jewish immigrants (most of whom were fleeing the increasing persecution in Europe). This immigration and accompanying call for a Jewish state in Palestine drew violent opposition from local Arabs, in part because of Zionism's stated goal of a Jewish state, which many Arabs believed would require the subjugation or the removal of the existing non-Jewish population. Theodor Herzl, the founder of modern political Zionism, at one time wrote that the indigenous population could be motivated to leave if they were given jobs in other countries. Herzl also wrote about the possibility of a harmonious partnership of Jews, Arabs and Christians in which Jewish capital and expertise would transform Palestine from its third world status into an advanced society where all would benefit. Some Zionists, such as Vladimir Jabotinsky, believed in Revisionist Zionism. Jabotinsky wrote in The Iron Wall (1923) that an agreement with the Arabs was impossible, and that military force would be required to establish a Jewish state. Other Zionists believed in Labor Zionism, and had strong socialist leanings. They organized the labor movement in Palestine, and joined with the Palestinian masses in campaigns for improved wages and working conditions.
Under the leadership of Haj Amin al-Husayni, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, the local Arabs rebelled against the British, and attacked the growing Jewish population repeatedly. These sporadic attacks began with the riots in Palestine of 1920 and Jaffa riots (or "Hurani Riots") of 1921. During the 1929 Palestine riots, 67 Jews were massacred in Hebron, and the survivors were evacuated by the British.

This might help. You sieze someone elses land and the majority of the population that were mostly muslims get shit and are thrown out of there land. WHY DO YOU ALL STILL EXPECT THE MUSLIMS TO LIVE IN PEACE WITH JEWS??

**Butterfly** · 20-10-2006, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by ceburat

..war is now unthinkable....unless terrorist and rag heads change....speak for yourself, cas, I VOTE FOR WAR-TIME TO DO IT.

THOU SHALL NOT KILL

ever heard of that one ?

**KID** · 20-10-2006, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by Sir Burr

This argument, if carried to its logical conclusion would mean that a quarter of the USA would have to be returned to Mexico, the rest + Canada to the native Indians.
England would be given back to the Welsh and Scots, Japan to the Ainu, Australia to the Aborigines and on and on and on.
Migration and conquest has been a major part of human history. You can't turn the clock back.

With regard to the Arabs and Palestine. The Palestinians vacated there home-land voluntarily as they had been forewarned that the Arab nations were going to attack Israel in 1948 and push the Jews into the sea.
They fully expected to go back to their homes once the Arabs had met their objective.
Of course, things didn't work out as planned.

very true sir blurr-- made that argument several times myself

but your forgetting one thing---- the people living in Oklahoma,Texas ,cali and new Mexico all voted to JOIN the united states and succeed from Mexico !!! WHO ALSO STOLE MEXICO AND ALMOST ALL OF THE REST OF SOUTH AMERICA FROM THE SOUTH AMERICAN INDIANS --AZTEC AND INCA'S WASN'T IT???

**Butterfly** · 20-10-2006, 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

They said they actually felt sympathy for the family of the perpetrator

You are joking, right ? with Christians like these, who need muslim terrorists sympathizers

Originally Posted by ceburat

If that happened there would be a happy world. Maybe we would suffer some damage, but damage worth suffering to rid ourselves of the ME.

But you reap what you sow. The ME fuckup situation is precisely being kept as is to serve the interests of the West (mostly US). Nuking the ME would only answer one question, while opening thousands more on another front. And there is OIL of course. But in principle, I agree, we should get of rid of that situation by leaving them alone. Bush is actually doing a good thing. He is so transparent, that the revelation about the ME situation is being harder than ever to hide by the US authorities double standards.

Originally Posted by ceburat

You claimed you went to school, college, in another thread. What did you learn? How to hate women and children? How to convert people to terrist groups? How to become a rag head? You need to quite playing games and wake up. People in the real world get tired of B.S. after awhile and then people like you want to cry about the results.

Advocating nuking the ME or the whole planet is hardly an educated guess or solution. Maybe it belongs to the Stone Age. I will let you reflect on your words here and how silly they are.

Originally Posted by ceburat

Who owned the land to start with?

Who gave it to whom?

That's the core of the problem and that's where everybody doesn't agree. Same as the Indians when Americans were stealing the land from them.

Originally Posted by KID

GOOD POINT--- WHO INSLAVED THE JEWS AND TOOK THEIR PROPERTY????

LOL !!! see Sir Blurr educated answer for a clue.

Originally Posted by Sir Burr

This argument, if carried to its logical conclusion would mean that a quarter of the USA would have to be returned to Mexico, the rest + Canada to the native Indians.

Amen

**ceburat** · 20-10-2006, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by ceburat

..war is now unthinkable....unless terrorist and rag heads change....speak for yourself, cas, I VOTE FOR WAR-TIME TO DO IT.

THOU SHALL NOT KILL

ever heard of that one ?

There will be wars and rumours of wars. Ever heard of that one?

**KID** · 20-10-2006, 11:47 AM

MHZ WROTE :"WHY DO YOU ALL STILL EXPECT THE MUSLIMS TO LIVE IN PEACE WITH JEWS??

wasn't 1 ass woopin enough??? might as well go ahead and play nice for your own sake

**stroller** · 20-10-2006, 12:08 PM

^
Because they are human beings?
Noone is born with hatred, it is fabricated.

And, I like to add, I don't like to generalise about Jews and Muslims, it distorts reality.

**ceburat** · 20-10-2006, 12:12 PM

Originally Posted by KID

WHY DO YOU ALL STILL EXPECT THE MUSLIMS TO LIVE IN PEACE WITH JEWS??

wasn't 1 ass woopin enough??? might as well go ahead and play nice for your own sake

1 ass woopin was not enough for them. They need more.

Muslims cannot live in peace with the rest of the world. All muslims, whether active or inactive are as christians, active or inactive, they all go by their holy book. The koran teaches muslims to kill anyone who will not join them and they believe by killing us they go to heaven. How can we live at peace with people who think like that. That why I said before TIME FOR WAR.

**stroller** · 20-10-2006, 12:24 PM

Em, you need to inform yourself, do some research on Islam, best not from sites like "against-evil-Islam.com".

**Storekeeper** · 20-10-2006, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by ceburat

How can we live at peace with people who think like that.

Hopefully the US won't end up bent over taking it up the arse from the immigrant Muslims like over in the UK.

**stroller** · 20-10-2006, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by KID

Originally Posted by Mhz

Who stole the land??

GOOD POINT--- WHO INSLAVED THE JEWS AND TOOK THEIR PROPERTY????

NOT THAT I CARE FOR THE JEWS ALL THAT MUCH-- BUT SINCE YA BROUGHT IT UP !!!!!

These which-lands-belong-to-who arguments go back a very long time in history. Most nations could claim land from others, and it has happened frequently in Europe and elsewhere.

-not a legitimate argument for war or hatred in my books.

**Sir Burr** · 20-10-2006, 12:28 PM

The British are famously tolerant and will go out of their way to accomodate the Muslim communities feelings....but, there is a limit to their patience and I think that point has nearly been reached.

**ceburat** · 20-10-2006, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

Em, you need to inform yourself, do some research on Islam, best not from sites like "against-evil-Islam.com".

Does reading the koran qualifiy as proper research?

What I stated before is taken from the koran and admitted to by muslims.

So tell me Sir, just what should I research for proper information?

**Storekeeper** · 20-10-2006, 12:32 PM

Originally Posted by Sir Burr

The British are famously tolerant and will go out of their way to accomodate the Muslim communities feelings....but, there is a limit to their patience and I think that point has nearly been reached.

I've noticed many stories over the past several months. I'll keep the radar on to start recognizing when poeple in the UK start saying enough is enough.

The BBC sure isn't the source to find out when the local UK people put their foot down and say enough is enough.

What UK news sources do you recommend ?

**Sir Burr** · 20-10-2006, 12:33 PM

SK,
I use BBC online, so, can't really help you.
But the general feeling I get is that most Britons believe that it's time for the Muslim community to start putting their own house in order with regard to the radicalization of British born Muslim youths.
Also, Jack Straw and the veiled teacher affair. The feelings are that the Muslim community should try harder to assimilate into the British way of life.
The West Indian community have, the Sikh and Hindu communities have, why not the Pakistanis and Bangladeshis?
There is a growing perception that multi-culturalism is a failure and that assimilation is the best answer.
Immigration laws are being tightened. You now need to speak English and take a test in the countries history, much like the US system.

**stroller** · 20-10-2006, 12:54 PM

Originally Posted by ceburat

Originally Posted by stroller

Em, you need to inform yourself, do some research on Islam, best not from sites like "against-evil-Islam.com".

Does reading the koran qualifiy as proper research?

What I stated before is taken from the koran and admitted to by muslims.

So tell me Sir, just what should I research for proper information?

I wonder where in the Koran you found this:

Muslims cannot live in peace with the rest of the world. All muslims, whether active or inactive are as christians, active or inactive, they all go by their holy book. The koran teaches muslims to kill anyone who will not join them and they believe by killing us they go to heaven.

Seems like there is a fair bit of highly selective reading and interpreting from the Koran going on here - sure you're not just parroting from some neo-con blog or similar?

Do you know any Muslims personally?

**ceburat** · 20-10-2006, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by ceburat

Originally Posted by stroller

Em, you need to inform yourself, do some research on Islam, best not from sites like "against-evil-Islam.com".

Does reading the koran qualifiy as proper research?

What I stated before is taken from the koran and admitted to by muslims.

So tell me Sir, just what should I research for proper information?

I wonder where in the Koran you found this:

Muslims cannot live in peace with the rest of the world. All muslims, whether active or inactive are as christians, active or inactive, they all go by their holy book. The koran teaches muslims to kill anyone who will not join them and they believe by killing us they go to heaven.

Seems like there is a fair bit of highly selective reading and interpreting from the Koran going on here - sure you're not just parroting from some neo-con blog or similar?

Do you know any Muslims personally?

Yes, I know many muslims. Some are close friends. One is a relative.

I don't do parroting. My only knowledge is from people(above) and the koran. However, that's not to say that the information is correct. My best friend in Philippines is from Lebanon. He states that Islam is a religion of love and only radicals use the killer part to justify what they do.

**Whiteshiva** · 20-10-2006, 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by ceburat

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

Originally Posted by Sir Burr

^^^
This post from a self-confessed Christian?
Shame on you.

I thought the same. remember the families of the killed Amish schoolgirls (a few weeks back)? They said they actually felt sympathy for the family of the perpetrator. Now that is what it means being a good Christian!

Being nice and thinking nice is great. Good christian attitudes. However, there is more to being a christian then just being a good person. Try obeying and serving God.

No thanks - just saying that if Christians actually followed what their "saviour" actually preached, like forgiveness and turning the other cheek, they would have more credability. Ditto with most other religious people.

The Amish have shown forgiveness for a person that hated them as well as compassion for his family - a rare occurance in today's world......

**machangezi** · 20-10-2006, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by ceburat

Originally Posted by KID

WHY DO YOU ALL STILL EXPECT THE MUSLIMS TO LIVE IN PEACE WITH JEWS??

wasn't 1 ass woopin enough??? might as well go ahead and play nice for your own sake

1 ass woopin was not enough for them. They need more.

Muslims cannot live in peace with the rest of the world. All muslims, whether active or inactive are as christians, active or inactive, they all go by their holy book. The koran teaches muslims to kill anyone who will not join them and they believe by killing us they go to heaven. How can we live at peace with people who think like that. That why I said before TIME FOR WAR.

Ahem I don't want to get into Muslim / Christian / Jew argument. I started the thread with good faith. My point was "what makes terrorists". I didn't mention anything about any religion if I'm not wrong. I don't see any reason for this thread turning into Muslim Vs Christian / Jew match.

And Ceburat you're wrong mate. Quran doesn't allow killings. There's a verse that says "fight those who drove you out of your houses but if they seek peace, be peaceful to them." Please try to find out a little bit about history of the verse before you accuse us Muslims.

Salam o Alaikum

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