Thread: Evolution vs Bible

Originally Posted by Stocky

As it happens I'm an earth scientist by profession

And here I thought this site was populated only by Pattaya Bar owners and their customers!

Originally Posted by BillyZ

Originally Posted by Stocky

As it happens I'm an earth scientist by profession

And here I thought this site was populated only by Pattaya Bar owners and their customers!

Yep! I discovered yesterday that there are in fact two geologists on the forum! Neither own bars in Pattaya (yet).

Maybe there should be a we love rocks smilie?

Originally Posted by kingwillyhggtb

yes please - i am waiting.

Fer god sake dont encourage him to post more of his drivel

Originally Posted by lom

Originally Posted by kingwillyhggtb

yes please - i am waiting.

Fer god sake dont encourage him to post more of his drivel

well i actually thought he was gonna try and argue his position (house of cards) somewhat more intelligently than he does.

about time to put him on ignore me thinks...

reminder: don't feed the troll

Originally Posted by kingwillyhggtb

Originally Posted by BillyZ

Anyway, I'm an evolutionist. But there were some parts in the book that made me think, "How can this all be?"

I can see why creationists are so adamant that they are right.

That's theories (Darwin) that match evidence that's been found, and that same evidence.

lets be clear about something... I do not believe in the evolutionist vs creationist debate.

The scientologists would have you believe that evolution is a theory and that scientists are divided about opinion on this matter....

THIS IS NOT TRUE AND THERE IS NO DEBATE AMOUNG SERIOUS SCIENTISTS!

Darwin did not propose the so called theory of evolution! His work was about the mechanism of evoltution! Or natural selection. His work was not controversial. His mistake was to include a small section in his book that suggested Homo sapiens were descended from a common ancestor to the apes and monkeys - this is what upset everybody!

But I find that I have to go with proof. A few months ago, I posted a thread asking that if the two camps went to court, who would win?

They already did! (i'll provide the source of this later when I find it again, as I've just moved many of my texts and files are still packed away)

The Supreme court of America (i think it was this court) a number of years ago oversaw the case of something like Scientologists vs the rest of the sane world. Some of the witnesses included well respected scientists in all fields, major leaders from the worlds major religions (ie Catholics, Christians, Muslims, Hindus etc)

Their findings......

Scientology (now remodeled as Natural Design but really we are talking about the Christian fundamentalists, or Bible literalists) was

NEITHER A REAL RELIGION AND WAS ALSO NOT A REAL SCIENCE!

I do not disagree with you on the above, and without discounting Darwin's contributions to science it's worth a mention that Lamark published Darwinian theory in or around the year that Darwin was born.

Many truths in similar fashion have been plagiarised, plundered and scavenged by historical men of all ages.

Originally Posted by Stocky

Originally Posted by Begbie

Originally Posted by Stocky

Originally Posted by kingwillyhggtb

yah - me too!

where did u study?

I did my degree in Melbourne Univeristry and thus had the privelege of being a student of Professor Ian Plimer.. who has received no less than 8 serious death threats and attempted kneecappings from those lovely law abiding Christian folks from the scientology group

he's written several books, my favourite is "telling lies for God"

great stuff....

Whoaa, that's a surprise, I've not met another geo on a forum before.
London, Kingston when it was still a polytechnic.
Over 25 years in gold exploration, with a little tungsten and diamonds thrown in.
Presently consulting on gold projects in Siberia, Russia Federation.

Odd you must have been in the same class as a friend of mine. Small world.

1976-79?

I was at Kingston Poly 71-74. Small world indeed. Did they still have the table football machines in the union bar when you were there?

Back on topic... I wish I actually KNEW more about this subject, but I guess being brought up in the "Science" stream at school and college, I just take in on faith that evolution happened over a long long time and that the Bible is just some [relatively uneducated] peoples' ideas on how the world started.

Evolution wins every time for me.

Originally Posted by kingwillyhggtb

Lets us consider the Great Flood story in context.

Where was the birth of Christianty and the Flood story born? In the area of modern day ME.

The whole world was flooded?

What was their whole world? Had these people discovered the Americas? Australia ?

NO. Their world was limited to a small area around the Mediterrain Sea.

Archeological evidence shows an that this area was once dry land and the straights of Gibraltar held back the ocean. This same evidence shows that at some stage a few thousands of years ago, the ocean flooded in, much as a dam breaking would cause catestrophic floods.

I think most of us can then understand that a great flood did happen, this great flood would have inundated their whole known world for a period of time. Stories about this flood would have been passed down the generations of people. These stories became the Great Flood story.

Absolutely.

Although we know there was a massive flood in the region at around the time the OT Flood narrative is supposed to have occurred, evidence suggests this was a local flood covering little more than the world as it was then known. But if we consider this event together with similar tales, the compendium of Flood narratives are little more than an expression of inate fear, of men unable to control their environment. Hope is never lost and the gods always find a way to save a couple or a family, who will give birth to a new humanity. The Biblical Deluge itself, taken in context and relative to the knowledge of its day, is no more than a mythical and instructional tale that illustrates Man's ability to start afresh - importantly, for the gods as much as humanity.

The early Semites, who adopted the cuneiform system of the Sumerians for their own language, also borrowed many Sumerian legends, adapting the mythological accounts of creation and of the actions of their gods to fit with their own environment, religious doctrines and beliefs. One of the most famous of these is the Epic of Gilgamesh, which describes a great flood.

When Enlil decided to do away with Man once and for all, it is said he prepared to send a flood to destroy the entire shoreline, and made the gods swear not to speak to Man of the impending catastrophe. In line with the requirement that Man may not be entirely destroyed, however, the god Ea, being more tolerant, did not break his word directly, but caused Atrahasis to have a dream in which he learned how to build an ark and thus perpetuate Mankind.

Lucian records an ancient Syrian tradition that the gods punished human wickedness with a deluge. Only Deucalian and his family were saved, in an ark with many animals that became tame.

The prophecy of Stoeffler, a renowned mathematician, was based on computations that enabled him to foretell the Deluge. Because of this, a physician of Toulouse built for himself and his family an Ark, and furnished it with stores and food and whatever else they should require while waiting for the waters to subside.

Tescatlopica warned the human couple Nata and Nena of an impending flood which would destroy all of Mankind, and ordered them to build a boat.

According to the Mayans of Guatemala, the two creators, Tepeu and Gucumatz succeeded, after several attempts to make beings capable of saying their names; but as they had neither memory nor reason, the gods decided to drown them in a flood, saving the statutory family to regenerate the race.

At the command of Hea, Tamzi built a great ship and filled it with his family and beasts of the field. When he was ready there was a great flood caused by rain, which destroyed all life from the face of the earth. On the 7th day the world became calm, and the vessel stranded on Mount Nizir. Tamzi waited seven more days, and let out a dove; and then a raven, which did not return.

Once upon a time, in Australia, there was a giant frog which drank all the water and dried up the whole earth, causing the parched animals to protest. In front of the frog, the eel performed superb contortions which amused and made the frog laugh and, unable to hold its water, he spat it all out at once and thus caused the Flood that has since been celebrated by natives as the ending and rebirth of Mankind. Note that the Frog is a symbol of the moon, whose relationship with water is well known.

Even the Chaldeans describe a flood from which only one household was saved, by means of a vessel provided by the gods, and at a vastly different time and place the Elders of the Sandwich Islands speak of an angry god causing floodwaters to rise and drown all living beings; only one good man and his family were saved, in a boat with plants and animals.


It seems fair to accept that either the Flood legend is an instructional tale inspired independently by ancient peoples throughout the world, or a tremendous cataclysm did occur in pre-historic times, hurling the seas all over the land in several widely separated areas.

If the Flood was 'local" why put all the animals of each kind into the Ark? Just put the 'local' animals in, as the rest of the animals in the world wouldn't be affected.

"The wisdom of Man is foolishness to God."

Yep, the Flood was 'local' all right,

that's why Noah put birds on board the ark.

Oh, I know, birds hadn't evolved enough by then to fly yet.

Although we know there was a massive flood in the region at around the time the OT Flood narrative is supposed to have occurred,

At least you admit there was a "massive flood in the region."

Keep going, you're on the right track.

So how did Noah get hold of Jaguars (South America), Tigers (India), Indonesian Rhinoceroses (Asia)?

One thing I hate is the fact that I work hard....
while there are paying fools out there that buy that crap about woman from a rib and animals from a boat.

Jesus save me- from your followers.

Can't refute the Flood so instead start in with the

Can't refute the Flood

Evolution is considered to be fact.



By who?

OK then - evolution does not exist and the flood covered the entire planet.

SO please answer a few of the following questions.

1. Where did Noah put all the elephant and rhino and all the other animals food, and what about their excrement ???

2. INot sure about these dinosuars - did you say they lived the same time as humans (as some creationists do) or that they were fake bones put into the ground satan to trick us (you never did answer the questions either) But if he also had 2 of every dinosaur on the Ark what happened when the Brontosaurus had sex on the ark - woudl have sunk it surely ???

3. Did Noah himself have the Chicken pox, small pox, polio, HIV virus, syphilus, malaria, Ross river virus etc ??

4. If he only had 2 of every animal - what did he feed the canivores ?

Did noah have special little glass cages for all the insects?

Originally Posted by Sir Burr

So how did Noah get hold of Jaguars (South America), Tigers (India), Indonesian Rhinoceroses (Asia)?

Look here:

How did animals get from the Ark to places such as Australia?

Originally Posted by kingwillyhggtb

Can't refute the Flood

Evolution is considered to be fact.



By who?

OK then - evolution does not exist and the flood covered the entire planet.

SO please answer a few of the following questions.

1. Where did Noah put all the elephant and rhino and all the other animals food, and what about their excrement ???

2. INot sure about these dinosuars - did you say they lived the same time as humans (as some creationists do) or that they were fake bones put into the ground satan to trick us (you never did answer the questions either) But if he also had 2 of every dinosaur on the Ark what happened when the Brontosaurus had sex on the ark - woudl have sunk it surely ???

3. Did Noah himself have the Chicken pox, small pox, polio, HIV virus, syphilus, malaria, Ross river virus etc ??

4. If he only had 2 of every animal - what did he feed the canivores ?

Look here:

Noah’s Ark Q&A

Articles / Topics / Noahs Flood - Institute for Creation Research

The debate between Creationistst and Evolutionists is old, mundane and redundant.

Nevertheless it's OK to continue.

Oh yeah, I forgot. There now is "intelligent design."

Sounds like the weaker side of the debate is adapting to stay afloat.

this website is great - thanks for pointing it out to me !

For example, horses, zebras and donkeys are probably descended from an equine (horse-like) kind , since they can interbreed, although the offspring are sterile. Dogs, wolves, coyotes and jackals are probably from a canine (dog-like) kind. All different types of domestic cattle (which are clean animals) are descended from the Aurochs, so there were probably at most seven (or fourteen) domestic cattle aboard. The Aurochs itself may have been descended from a cattle kind including bisons and water buffaloes. We know that tigers and lions can produce hybrids called tigons and ligers, so it is likely that they are descended from the same original kind.

i think that's called EVOLUTION!

since they can interbreed, although the offspring are sterile.

if the offspring are sterile how can they breed again so that an organsim can be 'descended from them????

this webiste is even looney than you!

Consider the sauropods, which were the largest dinosaurs—the group of huge plant-eaters like Brachiosaurus, Diplodocus, Apatosaurus, etc. There are 87 sauropod genera commonly cited, but only 12 are ‘firmly established’ and another 12 are considered ‘fairly well established’.5
One commonly raised problem is ‘How could you fit all those huge dinosaurs on the Ark?’ First, of the 668 supposed dinosaur genera, only 106 weighed more than ten tons when fully grown. Second, as said above, the number of dinosaur genera is probably greatly exaggerated. But these numbers are granted by Woodmorappe to be generous to skeptics. Third, the Bible does not say that the animals had to be fully grown. The largest animals were probably represented by ‘teenage’ or even younger specimens. The median size of all animals on the ark would actually have been that of a small rat, according to Woodmorappe‘s up-to-date tabulations, while only about 11 % would have been much larger than a sheep.

so not only do creationists - sorry intelligent designers have trouble with basic geology and paleontology but now they cannot do Math either??