Unions: Pros and Cons

[Storekeeper]

Are unions really still relevant? Will membership continue to decline or will we see a resurgence?

UAW wins historic victory in U.S. South with vote at VW plant | Reuters

"The United Auto Workers union won its first organizing vote at a foreign-owned auto assembly plant in the U.S. South on Friday, in a groundbreaking victory after decades of failed attempts.

About 71 percent of skilled trades workers who cast ballots at Volkswagen AG's (VOWG_p.DE) factory in Chattanooga, Tennessee voted to join the UAW, according to the company and the union.

The skilled trades workers account for about 11 percent of the 1,450 hourly employees at the plant.

If the UAW victory, as expected, survives an appeal by Volkswagen to the National Labor Relations Board, the 164 skilled trades workers will be the first foreign-owned auto assembly plant workers to gain collective bargaining rights in the southern United States.

While the unit of skilled trades workers who maintain the assembly machinery are a fraction of the hourly work force, observers said the victory was significant and could serve as a launching pad for the union’s efforts to organize other foreign-owned plants in the south.

“It gives the UAW a significant new tool in trying to organize the foreign automakers in the south. Symbolically, it’s going to be huge,” said Dennis Cuneo, a former automotive executive who has dealt with the UAW in past organizing campaigns.

Gary Casteel, UAW secretary-treasurer and head of the union's organizing efforts, downplayed the significance of the vote and its influence on the UAW's attempts to organize workers at southern plants including those owned by Nissan Motor Co (7201.T) and Daimler AG's (DAIGn.DE) Mercedes-Benz.

“To the overall grand plan of the UAW it’s probably not monumental, but to those workers, it’s a big deal,” Casteel said in an interview on Friday.

Casteel, and Chattanooga UAW Local 42 President Mike Cantrell, in a separate interview on Thursday, said the election was a result of the "frustration" of skilled trades workers not having collective bargaining rights for wages and benefits.

"Every case has to be built on the circumstances" at each plant, Casteel said. "We are not filing on Nissan or Mercedes tomorrow, but if our evaluation proved that there was a unit that was ready and strong enough to have an election, certainly we would explore it."

The union narrowly lost a February 2014 ballot in which all of the Chattanooga plant’s hourly workers were eligible to vote.

During that vote, Republican U.S. Senator Bob Corker, whose hometown is Chattanooga, said, “I’ve had conversations today and based on those am assured that should the workers vote against the UAW, Volkswagen will announce in the coming weeks that it will manufacture its new mid-size SUV here in Chattanooga."

The UAW’s current president, Dennis Williams, and its president in 2014, Bob King, said Corker's comment as well as “interference” from anti-union groups, including one led by small government advocate Grover Norquist, tainted the earlier election.

VW has since announced plans to build the midsized SUV at Chattanooga, and it plans to gradually add as many as 2,000 plant workers for production that will ramp up from its December 2016 start.

Casteel said the UAW maintains a narrow majority of support among VW Chattanooga hourly workers, but did not pursue a vote by all hourly workers now because of concern of “facing the same outside pressure that we faced last time.”

"We have said from the beginning of Local 42 that there are multiple paths to reach collective bargaining. And we believe these paths will give all of us a voice at Volkswagen in due time," Cantrell said after Friday's vote.

Officials at VW have publicly declined to say whether its relationship with the UAW has soured since 2014, when it was clearly the most open to the union among foreign automakers in the south. But it has appealed the decision by an NLRB regional official to allow election in Chattanooga on grounds that all of the plant’s hourly workers should be included in any labor representation vote.

VW also said the timing of the vote was bad, considering its ongoing scandal over diesel emissions.

Casteel and Cantrell pointed out that the UAW filed for the vote in August, more than a month before VW's emissions scandal came to light in mid-September".

[bsnub]

But it has appealed the decision by an NLRB regional official to allow election in Chattanooga on grounds that all of the plant’s hourly workers should be included in any labor representation vote.

This tells me that VW wants it workforce unionized. Every article I have read says that VW was in favor of unionization and not opposed.

With regards to whether they are still viable they absolutely are and I believe that as the battle for the $15 minimum wage ramps up nationally their influence will grow. Income inequality has become too big of an issue as much as the right tries to distract Americans from the issue it now affects to many Americans directly to be ignored. Unions will benefit from that in a big way.

The American middle class has always been at its strongest when union membership is at its highest.

[harrybarracuda]

But it has appealed the decision by an NLRB regional official to allow election in Chattanooga on grounds that all of the plant’s hourly workers should be included in any labor representation vote.

This tells me that VW wants it workforce unionized. Every article I have read says that VW was in favor of unionization and not opposed.

With regards to whether they are still viable they absolutely are and I believe that as the battle for the $15 minimum wage ramps up nationally their influence will grow. Income inequality has become too big of an issue as much as the right tries to distract Americans from the issue it now affects to many Americans directly to be ignored. Unions will benefit from that in a big way.

The American middle class has always been at its strongest when union membership is at its highest.

The Germans are far more appreciative of Unions, and union representatives even sit on the boards of companies.

And it doesn't seem to hurt them in terms of profitability and productivity.

[PeeCoffee]

With regards to whether they are still viable they absolutely are and I believe that as the battle for the $15 minimum wage ramps up nationally their influence will grow. Income inequality has become too big of an issue as much as the right tries to distract Americans from the issue it now affects to many Americans directly to be ignored. Unions will benefit....

Is it true that the min wage within the City of Seattle is or will become $15.oo / hour ?

Was this a result of citizens voting at elections ?
I do not believe unions had much effect though they wholehearted backed that position.

[bsnub]

Is it true that the min wage within the City of Seattle is or will become $15.oo / hour ?

Yes it will increase gradually to $15. It is currently at $12.

Was this a result of citizens voting at elections ?

It was passed by the city council and supported by the mayor. It is very popular in the city.

I do not believe unions had much effect though they wholehearted backed that position.

They did have a big effect. They mobilized people to take to the streets and to pressure their council members as well as the mayor. The $15 an hour wage movement has gone national now and unions will be a major player in getting it past into law in other places. I predict that we will see unionization happening at Walmart as well as fast food. There is a populist movement awakening in the US and it has just begun.

[PeeCoffee]

Interesting. Thank you for that POV, snub.

[harrybarracuda]

Only the greediest of right wing selfish arseholes oppose the $15 minimum wage.

They don't care that it will put more money into the general economy, all they are interested is in their own.

[thaimeme]

Only the greediest of right wing selfish arseholes oppose the $15 minimum wage.

They don't care that it will put more money into the general economy, all they are interested is in their own.

Sure, goes without saying.
Universal code of the establishment and placed systems is to suppress and control.

[sabang]

The Germans are far more appreciative of Unions, and union representatives even sit on the boards of companies.

And it doesn't seem to hurt them in terms of profitability and productivity.

dead right.

Unions have every much as right to organise as political parties, protest movements, or employer associations. Or religious groups, or social clubs. Or lobby groups. It's called free association, and it is one of our fundamental human rights.

[charleyboy]

I'd like to give you all, a green!

[BobR]

But it has appealed the decision by an NLRB regional official to allow election in Chattanooga on grounds that all of the plant’s hourly workers should be included in any labor representation vote.

This tells me that VW wants it workforce unionized. Every article I have read says that VW was in favor of unionization and not opposed.

With regards to whether they are still viable they absolutely are and I believe that as the battle for the $15 minimum wage ramps up nationally their influence will grow. Income inequality has become too big of an issue as much as the right tries to distract Americans from the issue it now affects to many Americans directly to be ignored. Unions will benefit from that in a big way.

The American middle class has always been at its strongest when union membership is at its highest.

Henry Ford was smart enough to pay his employees enough that they could afford to buy one of the cars they produced, too bad that kind of common sense is not taught in MBA courses today.

[Black Heart]

Are unions really still relevant? Will membership continue to decline or will we see a resurgence?

In particular instances there will be unions. Resurgance? Not likely.

Outsourcing, offshoring, right to work states and at will employment states.

It seems the media and politicians portray it at "all or nothing" but I think there has to be a balance.

Unions would be good for certain industries.

With American labor laws, the "working man" is a loser today.

[Storekeeper]

The Germans are far more appreciative of Unions, and union representatives even sit on the boards of companies.

And it doesn't seem to hurt them in terms of profitability and productivity.

dead right.

Unions have every much as right to organise as political parties, protest movements, or employer associations. Or religious groups, or social clubs. Or lobby groups. It's called free association, and it is one of our fundamental human rights.

Good point. Anybody who has ever served in the military in the USA should be a member of some group such as the Veterans of Foreign Wars, American Legion, Fleet Reserve Association otherwise they shouldn't be complaining about things like lack of cost of living adjustments and piss poor VA health care. All of the veterans organizations come together to represent veterans and active as the Military Coalition and lobby for benefits.

[panama hat]

This tells me that VW wants it workforce unionized.

Of course it does - the German model is excellent and reproducing it in in their plants around the world simply makes sense

The American middle class has always been at its strongest when union membership is at its highest.

Yup - absolutely right

The Germans are far more appreciative of Unions, and union representatives even sit on the boards of companies.

And it doesn't seem to hurt them in terms of profitability and productivity.

On the contrary, German companies thrive on the trades union model - why fix something that isn't broken

Unions have every much as right to organise as political parties, protest movements, or employer associations. Or religious groups, or social clubs. Or lobby groups. It's called free association, and it is one of our fundamental human rights.

Amen, brother

too bad that kind of common sense is not taught in MBA courses today.

Ah, but it is in a few I know of/about . . . what makes you think it isn't?!

Though I don't think trades unions are as relevant in the public service sector anymore, they certainly are in other sectors and in certain countries - to think that employers in the US aren't into profit maximisation, as opposed to optimisation, ir misteken

[RPETER65]

The Germans are far more appreciative of Unions, and union representatives even sit on the boards of companies.

And it doesn't seem to hurt them in terms of profitability and productivity.

dead right.

Unions have every much as right to organise as political parties, protest movements, or employer associations. Or religious groups, or social clubs. Or lobby groups. It's called free association, and it is one of our fundamental human rights.

Of course they have the right to organize, but do they have the right to make membership a condition of employment, or do they have the right to use members dues to support political candidates some members may oppose?

[Storekeeper]

The Germans are far more appreciative of Unions, and union representatives even sit on the boards of companies.

And it doesn't seem to hurt them in terms of profitability and productivity.

dead right.

Unions have every much as right to organise as political parties, protest movements, or employer associations. Or religious groups, or social clubs. Or lobby groups. It's called free association, and it is one of our fundamental human rights.

Of course they have the right to organize, but do they have the right to make membership a condition of employment, or do they have the right to use members dues to support political candidates some members may oppose?

Still trying to figure it out. On the question of membership as a condition of employment I would say no. But then again I can understand how those who pay dues would think it's unfair for non-dues paying members to enjoy hard fought for benefits without any skin in the game paying or fighting for those benefits. And also I'm pretty sure the law requires unions to represent non-members as well. As far as the question of supporting political candidates I would be OK with that if by majority vote.

Unfortunately it's not just Republicans who have cut the legs out from under unions ... The movie industry for years has portrayed unions as the bad guys.

[bsnub]

If you live in a right to work state and refuse to pay union dues then you should have a separate pay and benefits scale. Simple as that. Watch how fast they become union members.

[BobR]

If you live in a right to work state and refuse to pay union dues then you should have a separate pay and benefits scale. Simple as that. Watch how fast they become union members.

True, sorry can't green you for that, but I tried.

[Storekeeper]

Closer Look at Union vs. Nonunion Workers? Wages - Real Time Economics - WSJ

"Over the weekend, the Journal reported on the economics of “right-to-work” rules. The conclusion: It’s complicated, especially when it comes to proving cause and effect. But at a very basic level, right-to-work states have lower unemployment rates and faster job growth, but also lower wages.

A number of readers, however, noted that looking only at hourly or weekly wages fails to account fully for unions’ impact on their members’ paychecks. Dues eat into higher wages, while better benefits provided under union contracts don’t show up in wage data. Quantifying such impacts is difficult, but government data allow for a rough approximation.

Dues structures vary widely from union to union. The United Auto Workers, for example, generally charges the equivalent of two hours’ straight-time pay per month. Other unions charge a fixed monthly rate, or a percentage of members’ pay (generally 5% or less, and more often 1-3%, though higher and lower rates aren’t uncommon). Further complicating the picture: Many unions charge initiation fees to new members and reduced rates to retirees, as well as other assessments and charges.

As a result, it’s difficult to calculate a representative average dues payment, at least without wading through reams of impenetrable government disclosure forms. But it’s possible to come up with a rough upper and lower bound. U.S. unions collected about $8.8 billion in dues last year, according to the Labor Department, a figure that includes private-sector and federal-employee unions, but not most public-sector unions at the state and local level. Those unions have some 54 million members, for an average annual dues payment of about $163 per member.

That figure, however, includes retirees, meaning it vastly overstates the number of current union members and therefore underestimates average dues. The Bureau of Labor Statistics estimates about 9.2 million Americans are members of private or federal unions. Using that figure, the average union member pays about $959 per year. That’s too high, since it lumps in initiation fees and retiree dues, so the real figure likely lies somewhere in the middle. That’s broadly in keeping with other estimates.

The median private-sector union member made $878 a week in 2011 compared to $716 for nonmembers, a nearly 23% premium. (The premium was somewhat smaller in the manufacturing sector: $836 per week for union members for $780 per week for nonmembers.) Such comparisons have limited value since there are numerous other variables that affect wages. But to the extent there is a union wage premium, the added cost of dues doesn’t appear to negate it.

Then there’s the question of benefits: 94% of private-sector union members have access to health-care benefits, versus 67% of nonunion members, according to BLS. And employers cover on average 83% of health insurance premiums for union members and their families versus 66% for nonunion members. Union members are also more likely to get paid vacation and sick time and retirement and life insurance benefits. BLS doesn’t put a dollar value on all those benefits, but worker benefits typically account for about 30% of employers’ compensation costs.

The right-to-work debate, of course, goes beyond the costs and benefits of union membership itself. Advocates for organized labor argue right-to-work rules lead to lower wages for all workers, even those who aren’t union members. Right-to-work advocates argue stricter labor laws lead to higher unemployment and lower job growth, ultimately hurting union members and nonmembers alike".

[VocalNeal]

Henry Ford was smart enough to pay his employees enough that they could afford to buy one of the cars they produced, too bad that kind of common sense is not taught in MBA courses today.

Mercedes sells sh1t loads of cars to their employees as does even AMG. Well in AMG's case not sh1t loads but...

As Henry knew, it makes sense.

[RPETER65]

Another point to factor in, some unions in the construction trades are closed unions, new members need a member sponsor, and then they will not take new members if the work load is not there.

Still another point to consider is the greed and arrogance of it's members. In the 70's I worked in the Tri Cities in Washington state home of the Hanford nuclear reservation. In the mid 70's this was a boom area, close to 100% union. Union members got greedy and arrogant and it almost became a ghost town, because of union demands cost over runs became unacceptable construction on the reactors being built halted, never to be restarted. Reactors 90% complete were dismantled and sold for scrap, billions down the tube. Unions at their finest.

[misskit]

^ Never having heard of Hanford before, I read the history in a couple of different places on the web. It is very interesting. However, it seems the site was decommissioned because the Cold War ended and the area was such a danger to workers and the environment. There is no information out there pointing to the conclusion you have that unions member's greed and arrogance closed the plant.

[RPETER65]

^ Never having heard of Hanford before, I read the history in a couple of different places on the web. It is very interesting. However, it seems the site was decommissioned because the Cold War ended and the area was such a danger to workers and the environment. There is no information out there pointing to the conclusion you have that unions member's greed and arrogance closed the plant.

Having,lived there at the time, being a union member myself, and having dozens of friends in the carpenters, operating engineers, teamster,electricians, laborers I can tell you exactly what happened. The unions began squabbling, carpenters would plug in an extension cord electricians would come behind them and unplug it, electricians would build a small scaffold to reach their work the carpenters would tear it down, the pipe fitters demanded the first 5 seats on the busses to the work areas, if another trade sat in their seats they turn around and go home. Many people were on the payroll for more than one job, getting payed for 80 hours for a forty 40 hour week. Labor strikes causedmassive delays, I could go on but I think you get the point.

They did not shut down because the end of the Cold War, the reactors they were building were for the production of electricity. Four reactors in various stages of completion abandoned and the scrapers came in and tour them down. Years of work and to much money down the drain

[RPETER65]

^ Never having heard of Hanford before, I read the history in a couple of different places on the web. It is very interesting. However, it seems the site was decommissioned because the Cold War ended and the area was such a danger to workers and the environment. There is no information out there pointing to the conclusion you have that unions member's greed and arrogance closed the plant.

History Edit

The Site Certification Agreement was approved in 1975, with construction commencing on both units later that year.[4] Labor disputes at Hanford halted construction on WNP-1, -2 and -4 in 1980 and the forecast electric demand had failed to materialize, prompting WPPSS to install new management and re-evaluate the cost and schedule for all five nuclear projects.[5] In 1982, the Bonneville Power Administration, which had encouraged and was responsible for funding the construction of the initial three projects, had to decide between shutting down construction on WNP-1 or WNP-3. Construction continued on WNP-3 since WNP-3 was partly owned by public utilities and was slightly ahead of schedule, and WNP-1 entered an extended construction delay in April 1982 when it was approximately 63% complete.[
Equipment and structures at WNP-1 were preserved to enable the resumption of construction at a later date, based on regional energy forecasts showing surplus power generation would disappear by 1990,[6] but preservation was terminated in 1995.[5] However, the low humidity has maintained the structures in a reasonable condition.[3] The co-owners of WNP-4 and WNP-5 planned to fund similar preservation measures for a potential construction restart, but could not agree on funding obligations, and WNP-4 was canceled in January 1982 at approximately 24% complete.[5]

en.m.wilkepedia.org