10,000 Protest Mosque at Ground Zero

**Butterfly** · 14-06-2010, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by Camel Toe

The jetliner is the poor man's cruise. we got the cruise we don't need to hijack.

they did quite a nice job you have to admit, very bold, they must have had help though, apparently the Mossad was involved and also cheering

on 911, the US realized they had no friends left

**Jet Gorgon** · 14-06-2010, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by Camel Toe

I'm still not convinced there was anybody aboard those planes.

OK, I'm still not convinced obama was born in the US of A.

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Sure, just like France had it coming in '95

in some ways they did...
it was nasty, and it stopped eventually by negotiation with the terrorists and the Algerian government.

Yep, negotiate with them terrorists and thugs like you did in WWII. Pansies. The Spanish aren't any better. You will turn muzzie first. Tough tittie. Just forget about getting refugee status over here or asking for help. Mostly useless, spineless people you lot are.

**FailSafe** · 14-06-2010, 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

Originally Posted by FailSafe

I guess we'll all see a nice peaceful transition when your country cedes to its Muslim majority in about 20 years- get those burqas ready.

not really, they are integrating, slowly and painfully but now most understand that France isn't against them like it used to. The burka issue is also strongly opposed by some famous members of the muslim community.

LOL- OK- they're 'integrating'.

The very nature of the religion is counter to 'integration'- Muslims have a right to act any way they want as long as they conform to their home nation's laws, but what do you think is going to happen once they are a voting majority and are in a position to change those laws for their own benefit?

YOU'RE the one that's going to be 'integrating'.

**SEA Traveler** · 14-06-2010, 01:15 PM

[quote=Panda;1470190]

Originally Posted by SEA Traveler

Originally Posted by Butterfly

well you have to admit that the US had it coming,,,, /quote]

this is a shameful view and quote even for you bfly.

Hey, USA has been shamelessly interfering in many other countries around the world for decades, funding/mounting political coups and wars, invading and bombing other countries, killing civilians in the millions.

Just why would anyone believe it was shameful to think that USA would get back a tiny proportion of what they have been dishing out to others for decades? Seems like a fairly logical assessment of the price USA would pay for the expansion of their financial empire.

You keep kicking sand in the face of a 6 stone weakling and sooner or later he is going to hit you in the back of the head with a rock.

Panda, likewise an obvious evil person wishing harm. shameful... just shameful.

**zygote1** · 14-06-2010, 07:13 PM

Originally Posted by slackula

Originally Posted by zygote1

if I wanted to build a church in most muslim countries, it would not be allowed let alone open to discussion,

Not true.

Are you serious? Please provide an example. I'll go first. It is illegal to build a church in Saudi Arabia. There are no churches in the land of the House of Saud. Ok, your turn.

**slackula** · 14-06-2010, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by zygote1

Are you serious? Please provide an example. I'll go first. It is illegal to build a church in Saudi Arabia. There are no churches in the land of the House of Saud. Ok, your turn.

You said "most muslim countries", Saudi Arabia is one muslim country, (and coincidentally the one most closely allied with the USA). "One" does not equal "most", it is one. The Vatican is in talks with the house of Saud to build a church in Saudi FWIW.

Iran has something like 500 churches I think, and I have visited churches in Jordan, Turkey, Oman and Qatar.

Your turn.

**FailSafe** · 14-06-2010, 07:46 PM

Most Muslim countries will allow churches to be built under conditions- they do this in the hopes that it will encourage Christian countries to allow mosques to be built in return- it's not exactly done in the spirit of tolerance, but it's possible.

**slackula** · 14-06-2010, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

they do this in the hopes that it will encourage Christian countries to allow mosques to be built in return- it's not exactly done in the spirit of tolerance, but it's possible.

Do you have anything to back up this utterly ludicrous statement? What are the "Christian countries" you cite?

Do you think that the Baptists will be building a church in Vatican City anytime soon?

**Panda** · 14-06-2010, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by SEA Traveler

Panda, likewise an obvious evil person wishing harm. shameful... just shameful.

You sound a bit like GWB there mate.

I suppose you believe all "evil " people who dont follow your own political doctrine should be killed?

**FailSafe** · 14-06-2010, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by slackula

Originally Posted by FailSafe

they do this in the hopes that it will encourage Christian countries to allow mosques to be built in return- it's not exactly done in the spirit of tolerance, but it's possible.

Do you have anything to back up this utterly ludicrous statement? What are the "Christian countries" you cite?

When I said "Christian Countries" I meant countries that are based on Christian values (like the US)- I would have thought that was obvious. I was agreeing with you- I'm not sure what your problem is.

Qaradawi said that "it is possible to build a church in a Muslim country for Christians who visit the country or reside there."

"There has to be a real necessity for the church and it has to be built with the permission of the local authorities," he said.

"If there really is a certain number of Christians in a specific area and there is the authorities' consent, it is the duty to ensure that they have the possibility to practise their faith."

Qaradawi then also made reference to a request often made by Western politicians for reciprocity in building places of worship.

"There are many foreigners who go to Muslim countries to work. In this way they increase the number of Christian residents," he said.

"There is therefore a real need for a church and it should be taken into account that they [Christian leaders] allow Muslim residents in their countries to open mosques so that they can pray."

The Union of the Muslim Ulema used the same reason to justify the decision of the Qatari government to allow a Catholic church to be built in their country.
Islam: Churches can be built in Muslim countries, says cleric - Adnkronos Religion

**Muadib** · 14-06-2010, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by Camel Toe

I'm still not convinced there was anybody aboard those planes. What about the crash site in Pennsylvania, looks like a VW Beetle landed there. And The Pentagon being hit with a cruise missile in an area that was unpopulated. And the razing of TWTC's three buildings. These events all go together. I assume if one was phony all were phony. I hope you don't think these phat cats aren't capable of killing their own.

The USA needs boogie men. We've always needed boogie men.

Perhaps if you took the time to actually do any research on the topic, you would find that the airplanes were indeed full of passengers...

BTW, the cleaners called... Your tin-foil hat is ready for pickup...

**FailSafe** · 14-06-2010, 08:51 PM

Another link:

Religion: on Building Churches in Muslim Countries (Alice Whealey, US) | WAIS

Specifically, in response to Eugen Solf’s rhetorical question whether he could build a Lutheran church in an “Islamic country,” Soraya’s response that “in all Islamic countries with the exception of Saudi Arabia, one is permitted to build churches” was misleading. In fact, the ability of Lutherans, or any other post-Reformation Christian group to build new churches in the above-mentioned countries is in practice quite limited, certainly more limited than the ability of Muslims to build new mosques in West European countries. The reason for this is that while these countries tolerate some churches for Christian communities which either pre-date Islamic rule or are temporarily in the country as foreign guestworkers/tourists, they also significantly limit the creation of new, permanent local (rather than temporary foreign) Christian communities. They do so by either limiting the naturalization of Christian immigrants (according to the US State Dept. Libya and UAE even designate their citizens as Muslim by definition), and/or prohibiting the proselytization/conversion of local Muslims, and/or tolerating or even promoting discrimination against converts from Islam.

**Muadib** · 14-06-2010, 08:55 PM

All this rhetoric on whether Muslim countries would allow Christian churches on their land is ludicrous...

The real question is, which religion is more tolerant of other religions / deities around the world... On the face of it, Christian nutters are just as bad, if not worse than Muslim extremists...

**SEA Traveler** · 14-06-2010, 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by Panda

Originally Posted by SEA Traveler

Panda, likewise an obvious evil person wishing harm. shameful... just shameful.

You sound a bit like GWB there mate.

I suppose you believe all "evil " people who dont follow your own political doctrine should be killed?

twist the words any way you want panda but what I said was your obvious wishing harm on others is shameful.

**Butterfly** · 14-06-2010, 09:19 PM

well no matter how you stand on the issue, you have to admit it was a perfectly executed job, something I think that terrorists couldn't have accomplish alone without some extra help from inside

**Camel Toe** · 14-06-2010, 09:25 PM

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Originally Posted by Camel Toe

I'm still not convinced there was anybody aboard those planes.

OK, I'm still not convinced obama was born in the US of A.

Here it is again. Whatever the theme it comes down to Obama. Why should you care where he was born, he's not Canadian, it's not your place to suggest.

**mr Fred** · 14-06-2010, 09:32 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Originally Posted by mr Fred

The land of the free..

Fuck the first amendment, this lot are Muslims.

Actually, the protesters are exercising their rights under the 1st amendment- please tell me how it was violated?

You are free to practice your religion- I'm free to say that I don't want your house of worship in a certain spot- what the government can't do is stop either one of us.

Good paradox. You want the right to say I can't have my rights guaranteed under the constitution.

**FailSafe** · 14-06-2010, 09:35 PM

This should settle the 'birther' argument:

**mr Fred** · 14-06-2010, 09:37 PM

By way of a note. Loads of churches here in Indonesia. The situation is far from perfect but they are built. Loads in this town.

**FailSafe** · 14-06-2010, 09:39 PM

Originally Posted by mr Fred

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Originally Posted by mr Fred

The land of the free..

Fuck the first amendment, this lot are Muslims.

Actually, the protesters are exercising their rights under the 1st amendment- please tell me how it was violated?

You are free to practice your religion- I'm free to say that I don't want your house of worship in a certain spot- what the government can't do is stop either one of us.

Good paradox. You want the right to say I can't have my rights guaranteed under the constitution.

How is that a 'paradox'? Yes, I want the right to say it- however, does my saying it negate your rights under the Constitution? Of course not.

No one said that opening a mosque/Muslim studies center was unconstitutional- this is more an issue over sentiment than law- the protest is perfectly legal.

**FailSafe** · 14-06-2010, 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by mr Fred

By way of a note. Loads of churches here in Indonesia. The situation is far from perfect but they are built. Loads in this town.

Not too surprising considering nearly 9% of the population (~20,000,000 people) are Protestant or Catholic.

**slackula** · 14-06-2010, 10:38 PM

Originally Posted by FailSafe

When I said "Christian Countries" I meant countries that are based on Christian values (like the US)- I would have thought that was obvious. I was agreeing with you- I'm not sure what your problem is.

My problem is that I like to believe the US was founded on Enlightenment values, not religious ones, and most of the writings of the founders would support that.

**Camel Toe** · 15-06-2010, 12:03 AM

Asi es

Not to be persecuted, by religion or and other grounds. If not for the English burning us at the stake, America would have come to belong to somebody else, the Portuguese perhaps, or God forbid the French.

**FailSafe** · 15-06-2010, 06:05 AM

Originally Posted by slackula

Originally Posted by FailSafe

When I said "Christian Countries" I meant countries that are based on Christian values (like the US)- I would have thought that was obvious. I was agreeing with you- I'm not sure what your problem is.

My problem is that I like to believe the US was founded on Enlightenment values, not religious ones, and most of the writings of the founders would support that.

Certainly there were 'Enlightenment values' but come on- that's a pretty naive view- women, non-whites, and poor white men were basically treated as non-entities by the founding fathers- religious values played a heavy hand in their thinking.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness..."

All men weren't treated equally, though...

In the American context, historians use the term Judeo–Christian to refer to the influence of the Hebrew Bible and New Testament Puritan, Presbyterian and Evangelical heritage. Some early colonists saw themselves as heirs to the Hebrew Bible, and its teachings on liberty, responsibility, hard work, ethics, justice, equality, a sense of choseness and an ethical mission to the world, which have become key components of the American character, what is called the “American Creed.” [14] These ideas from the Hebrew Bible, brought into American history by Protestants, are seen as underpinning the American Revolution, Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution. Other authors are interested in tracing the religious beliefs of America's founding fathers, emphasizing both Jewish and Christian influence in their personal beliefs and how this was translated into the creation of American institutions and character.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judeo-Christian

**mr Fred** · 15-06-2010, 07:31 AM

took to the streets in New York City Sunday to fight construction of a 13-story Islamic mosque

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Originally Posted by mr Fred

Originally Posted by FailSafe

Originally Posted by mr Fred

The land of the free..

Fuck the first amendment, this lot are Muslims.

Actually, the protesters are exercising their rights under the 1st amendment- please tell me how it was violated?

You are free to practice your religion- I'm free to say that I don't want your house of worship in a certain spot- what the government can't do is stop either one of us.

Good paradox. You want the right to say I can't have my rights guaranteed under the constitution.

How is that a 'paradox'? Yes, I want the right to say it- however, does my saying it negate your rights under the Constitution? Of course not.

No one said that opening a mosque/Muslim studies center was unconstitutional- this is more an issue over sentiment than law- the protest is perfectly legal.

The protesters want to stop the mosque. A clear breach of the constitution.
It's a paradox because you are wanting the freedom to restrict freedom.

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