Thread: Fluoride (again)

Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

Before the usual mob disagree and criticize the source, not one scientist or company that I have spoken to at health and nutrition seminars that I have attended has agreed that fluoride is beneficial other than for the surface of the teeth.

The usual useless banter by the same moron -- 'the surface of the teeth' is a significant start (fluoride coating prevents caries from adhering to teeth) ye true benefits arise from having fluoride absorbed into the tooth enamel while the teeth are being formed - thus providing a permanent bond, and extreme resistance to caries.

So are you saying it is ok to consume?

The argument is about consuming the fluoride you nutsack, despite scientists and dentists saying it offers no value even to the teeth.

I assume you're in or from the US. That'll explain it then Ted!

Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

I assume you're in or from the US. That'll explain it then Ted!

Nope, I'm European.

Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

So are you saying it is ok to consume?

Yes, I believe that's what I said.

Let me check.

"...true benefits arise from having fluoride absorbed into the tooth enamel while the teeth are being formed"

Yep, that's what I said -- and since it's obvious that you can't put 2 + 2 together, the only way for "fluoride to be absorbed into the tooth enamel while the teeth are being formed", is to consume fluoride when those very teeth are being formed by your body - between 3 to 8 years old.

Subsequent consumption, topical or oral / lozenges provides additional surface protection, or provides for remineralization, should your teeth have lost mineral content due to softening. Consumption, in this case does not need to be 'eating', but for the most part is in the form of dissolving the pill form in your saliva before bedtime, thus providing a fluoride bath for your teeth while you sleep.

Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

The argument is about consuming the fluoride you nutsack, despite scientists and dentists saying it offers no value even to the teeth.

Actually, despite *YOUR* quote 'scientists' and 'dentists' making such claims. There are far more, and far better qualified scientists that aren't running along the asshat agenda.

We've gone over this before in another thread, where you have clearly demonstrated not to even know the difference between fluoride, fluorite, and fluorine, as you kept mixing up what each does, and their respective effects or origins - thus, since you can't even keep the basic information on what you aim to discuss straight, I find your efforts at relevance extremely amusing.

Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

So are you saying it is ok to consume?

The argument is about consuming the fluoride you nutsack, despite scientists and dentists saying it offers no value even to the teeth.

I assume you're in or from the US. That'll explain it then Ted!

Did you study chemistry at school?

Is that why mericans have such lovely white teeth ?

Flouride is a waste product of Aluminium processing, why would you want that in your water?
Adding it to water is just a convenient way to dispose of the massive amounts of waste flouride.
If you want flouride for your teeth use toothpaste.

Originally Posted by daveboy

Is that why mericans have such lovely white teeth ?

Fluoride does not bleach teeth.

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

Flouride is a waste product of Aluminium processing, why would you want that in your water?
Adding it to water is just a convenient way to dispose of the massive amounts of waste flouride.

Another ignoramus.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

Flouride is a waste product of Aluminium processing, why would you want that in your water?
Adding it to water is just a convenient way to dispose of the massive amounts of waste flouride.

Another ignoramus.

Aww Dafney, no need to be sooo dismissive, why don't you look into it first and disprove me with data rather than with your rapier intellect and reparte!

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

Flouride is a waste product of Aluminium processing, why would you want that in your water?
Adding it to water is just a convenient way to dispose of the massive amounts of waste flouride.

Another ignoramus.

Aww Dafney, no need to be sooo dismissive, why don't you look into it first and disprove me with data rather than with your rapier intellect and reparte!

helps the water to look nice and clean and drinkable. immm. ?

Originally Posted by ItsRobsLife

Aww Dafney, no need to be sooo dismissive, why don't you look into it first and disprove me with data rather than with your rapier intellect and reparte!

Because your very core premise is wrong, i.e. "Flouride is a waste product of Aluminium processing", which it is not. Furthermore, you don't even know how to spell Fluoride, so it comes as no surprise that your conclusions and suppositions are incorrect.

Fluoride - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Hydrofluoric acid, is the only similarly sounding component in the production of aluminium fluroides - and neither has any relation to 'aluminium' or the fluoride that we are discussing, consumed and applied to teeth (as a hint, Hydrofluoric acid can dissolve glass - figure it out).

All of this information is available within 1 minute of Googling, a secret research method you are apparently not familiar with.

So I can rest assured that Hitler and Stalin used fluoride in the water because they were concerned about their population's teeth and nothing else?

Is it really safe to assume that fluoride wasn't used by the Nazis to sterilize people and make them docile?

Similarly, is it safe to assume Fluoride is NOT a key dumbing down ingredient of Prozac and Sarin nerve gas?

^Now that's just conspiracy!!

BENEFITS
Question 1.
What is fluoride and how does it prevent tooth decay?
ADA's Fluoridation Facts Short Answer
Fluoride is a naturally occurring element that prevents tooth decay systemically when ingested during tooth development and topically when applied to erupted teeth.
ADA's Fluoridation Facts Long Answer
The fluoride ion comes from the element fluorine. Fluorine, the 17th most abundant element in the earth's crust, is a gas and never occurs in its free state in nature. Fluorine exists only in combination with other elements as a fluoride compound. Fluoride compounds are constituents of minerals in rocks and soil. Water passes over rock formations and dissolves the fluoride compounds that are present, creating fluoride ions. The result is that small amounts of soluble fluoride ions are present in all water sources, including the oceans. Fluoride is present to some extent in all foods and beverages, but the concentrations vary widely.14-16
Simply put, fluoride is obtained in two forms: topical and systemic. Topical fluorides strengthen teeth already present in the mouth. In this method of delivery, fluoride is incorporated into the surface of teeth making them more decay-resistant. Topically applied fluoride provides local protection on the tooth surface. Topical fluorides include toothpaste, mouth rinses and professionally applied fluoride gels and rinses.
Systemic fluorides are those that are ingested into the body and become incorporated into forming tooth structures.
In contrast to topical fluorides, systemic fluorides ingested regularly during the time when teeth are developing are deposited throughout the entire surface and provide longer-lasting protection than those applied topically.17 Systemic fluorides can also give topical protection because ingested fluoride is present in saliva, which continually bathes the teeth providing a reservoir of fluoride that can be incorporated into the tooth surface to prevent decay. Fluoride also becomes incorporated into dental plaque and facilitates further remineralization.18 Sources of systemic fluorides include water, dietary fluoride supplements in the forms of tablets, drops or lozenges, and fluoride present in food and beverages.
Researchers have observed fluoride's decay preventive effects through three specific mechanisms:19, 20

1. Fluoride reduces the solubility of enamel in acid by converting hydroxyapatite into less soluble fluorapatite.
2. Fluoride exerts an influence directly on dental plaque by reducing the ability of plaque organisms to produce acid.
3. Fluoride promotes the remineralization or repair of tooth enamel in areas that have been demineralized by acids.

The remineralization effect of fluoride is of prime importance. Fluoride ions in and at the enamel surface result in fortified enamel that is not only more resistant to decay, but enamel that can repair or remineralize early dental decay caused by acids from decay-causing bacteria.17, 21-25 Fluoride ions necessary for remineralization are provided by fluoridated water as well as various fluoride products such as toothpaste.
Maximum decay reduction is produced when fluoride is available for incorporation during all stages of tooth formation (systemically) and by topical effect after eruption.
Repeat of Question 1.
What is fluoride and how does it reduce tooth decay?
Opposition's Response
The ADA's answer to the question above leads one to believe that fluoride is something that occurs naturally in water, and that "water fluoridation is the adjustment of the natural fluoride concentration of fluoride-deficient water." One would assume from their statement that some type of natural fluoride is added. This is not the case; only calcium fluoride occurs naturally in water, and it has never been used for fluoridation.
The chemicals used to fluoridate 90% of public drinking water are industrial grade hazardous wastes captured in the air pollution-control scrubber systems of the phosphate fertilizer industry, called silicofluorides. ("Fluorine Recovery in the Fertilizer Industry - A Review," Phosphorus & Potassium, No. 103, Sept/Oct 1979.) (Also, see 1-1: "Fluoridation: A Mandate to Dump Toxic Waste in the Name of Public Health", George Glasser, Journalist, St. Petersburg, FL, July 22, 1995.)
These wastes contain a number of toxic contaminants including lead, arsenic, cadmium and even some radioactive isotopes. The phosphate rock mined in Florida for this purpose has also been mined for its uranium content!
If not dumped in our public water supplies, these silicofluorides would have to be neutralized at the highest rated hazardous waste facility at a cost of $1.40 per gallon. The cost could increase, depending on how much cadmium, lead, uranium, and arsenic are also present. The silicofluorides still contain these heavy metals, and other pollutants, when they are dumped into our water systems. According to Dr. Ludwig Gross, even if these pollutants are so dilute that they meet current regulatory standards, concerns remain about synergistic effects and the toxicity of both the silicofluoride ion and the bare fluoride ion itself.
"The plain fact that fluorine is an insidious poison, harmful, toxic and cumulative in its effects, even when ingested in minimal amount, will remain unchanged no matter how many times it will be repeated in print that fluoridation of water supply is 'safe'." (Dr. Ludwik Gross, Renowned Cancer Research Scientist, in N. Y. Times 3/6/57.)
Journal of the American Medical Association, Sept. 18, 1943, states that fluorides are general protoplasmic poisons — they inhibit enzyme systems, and water containing 1 part per million (ppm) or more fluoride is undesirable. This was the AMA's stand on fluoridation shortly before the U.S. Public Health Service endorsed nationwide fluoridation. (See 1-3).

I've always wondered about how much fluoride remains on our tongues after brushing and rinsing.
In light of the fact that it is parts per million we are talking about, hands up who scrubs their tongue after brushing. Or who makes their children do it.
Hmmmmm.......didn't think so.
However I keep an open mind on the whole subject. I do believe in "the precautionary principle" though. To not do so is foolish.
There are more natural, organic forms of fluoride available in health food stores.
I wonder how effective they are ? Anyone know of studies done ?

^ I used herbal toothpaste, never had a filling or had sensitive gums. My teeth are pearly white.

I used herbal toothpaste for 10 years in my 20s and my teeth got lots of decay.

Fluoride was introduced into the water in Birmingham UK i think in the early 60s because of bad teeth in children , and in my opinion was a good and affective idea.

Originally Posted by Latindancer

I've always wondered about how much fluoride remains on our tongues after brushing and rinsing.
In light of the fact that it is parts per million we are talking about, hands up who scrubs their tongue after brushing. Or who makes their children do it.
Hmmmmm.......didn't think so.
However I keep an open mind on the whole subject. I do believe in "the precautionary principle" though. To not do so is foolish.
There are more natural, organic forms of fluoride available in health food stores.
I wonder how effective they are ? Anyone know of studies done ?

I must admit i clean my teeth regularly , but it was my Thai wife that introduced me to scrubbing my tongue 12 yrs ago.

Originally Posted by Latindancer

There are more natural, organic forms of fluoride available in health food stores.
I wonder how effective they are ? Anyone know of studies done ?

They all contain the same fluoride.

Originally Posted by Jesus Jones

^ I used herbal toothpaste, never had a filling or had sensitive gums. My teeth are pearly white.

You probably got fluoride as a kid -- Pwned!

A quick Google : Here are some fluoride facts to counteract some of the fluoride fluff out there in the media. Did you know that there are many different types of fluoride? And not all fluorides are created equally. We start out with the natural form of organically bound calcium-fluoro-phosphate, which is commonly found in tea, especially green tea. This form of calcium is actually non-toxic. Now, starting with a gradient scale of harmfulness, Calcium fluoride is another form of inorganic fluoride. Some scientists with poor differentiation include this type of fluoride, which is not as harmful in comparison with all the other forms of fluoride, which in fact are harmful.
Starting with the least toxic calcium fluoride, then to the aluminum processing plants waste product called sodium fluoride, which is several thousand times more toxic than the calcium fluoride, to the next more common hydrofluorosilicic acid which is a waste byproduct from the heavy metal plating industry’s waste acid and Florida Phosphate Mining Industries waste fluoride, chromium, and radioactive Strontium-90 [which occurs naturally in Florida’s clays].
It is this latter, hydrofluorosilicic acid, that is illegal to dump in rivers and oceans, but is legal to be added as a tooth decay preventive in our drinking water. This form of fluoride is again many thousands of times more toxic than sodium fluoride, which is many thousands of times more toxic than calcium fluoride.
Many other food sources, such as grains and sodas unfortunately get their fluoride from fluoride-based pesticides/herbicides, and fluoride from the city drinking water supply, which are in the highly toxic form—hydrofluorosilicic acid.

It's nice to see that you guys are capable of copying and pasting like there's no tomorrow, yet apparently no one's able to actually think for themselves. Lovely.

Facts is that fluoridation has been the single most significant factor in the reduction of tooth decay across large populations - and the rampant opposition to fluoridation by extremely minor groups is no different than similar oppositions to vaccinations, the 'truther' movement of 911 fame, the 'birther' movement questioning Obama's birth certificates, or any zany organization of insignificant and stupid people that seek to give themselves relevance by clinging to some nutter conspiracy.

It's no coincidence that inquiries into the educational backgrounds of those advocating these zany theories are usually met with derision ("none of your business") or efforts to change the subject ("Look at all the scientists that...") or dumb efforts to turn the inquiry around ("Oh yeah, well what about YOUR education..?" and upon finding that the other side HAS a qualified background, silence).

Quite amusing, but ultimately pathetically sad.

Water fluoridation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Like vaccination and food fortification, fluoridation presents a conflict between benefiting the common good and infringing on individual rights.[17] Fluoridation can be viewed as a violation of ethical or legal rules that prohibit medical treatment without medical supervision or informed consent, and that prohibit administration of unlicensed medical substances.[3] It can also be viewed as a public intervention to replicate the benefits of naturally fluoridated water in order to free people from the misery of toothache and dental work, with greatest benefit to those least able to help themselves, and where it would be unethical to withhold such treatment.[72]


National and international health agencies and dental associations throughout the world have endorsed water fluoridation's safety and effectiveness.[3][73] The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention listed water fluoridation as one of the ten great public health achievements of the 20th century.[74] alongside vaccination, family planning, recognition of the dangers of smoking, and other achievements.[14] Other organizations endorsing fluoridation include the World Health Organization,[8][27] the U.S. Surgeon General,[75] the American Public Health Association,[76] the European Academy of Paediatric Dentistry,[77] and the national dental associations of Australia,[78] Canada,[79] and the U.S.[80]

Yes, I know......but I can't help remembering how so many agencies advocated using DDT and asbestos in everything, many years ago. It weighs on my mind.