Thread: Quagmire....

It's impossible for servicemen to refuse. You full well know that.

We know that many servicemen disagree with the war, but if you're in the military you have to follow order, however wrong they may be.

Yes - there are always exceptions.

A bit harsh I reckon.

^ Harsh is destroying a country, killing and destroying a place when they don't even speak the language nor understand the ramifications of what they are are doing.

I've been communicating with a soldier in Al-Anbar who thinks he is there because of 9/11.

I think he's in the wrong country.

Originally Posted by Milkman

I think he's in the wrong country.

Agreed.

But, do you blame the soldiers for being brainwashed or do you blame the brainwashers?

^ I blame both.

They are both equally guilty.

What about those who reluctantly fulfill the terms of the contract they signed before the Iraq war was on the agenda?

Your using a broad brush, where does all the hate and judgement come from?

Originally Posted by stroller

What about those who reluctantly fulfill the terms of the contract they signed before the Iraq war was on the agenda?

These people are no longer in the service - I know some of them.

They are out in civilian life, now.

Your using a broad brush, where does all the hate and judgement come from?

Is my brush broad?

That depends one's perspective.

I don't think my "brush is broad."

Hate?

I don't have hate. I do have dislike over killing and raping civilians.

Maybe that makes me a bad person. But I don't like killing and rape - sorry.

Judgement?

Well, yes I am judging people who kill, maim, and rape, negatively.

Sorry to those I've offended.

Originally Posted by Milkman

I do have dislike over killing and raping civilians.

So do I, but do all US soldiers in Iraq practice or support this? How many?
That's where the broad brush comes in, and the stereotyping and wholesale condemnation.

Btw, I don't have much sympathy for anyone in a voluntary army who gets killed, and there certainly is a portion of soldiers who are fully individually responsible for holding the wrong motives, as do non-serving US citizens - we have all come across some sickening examples of murderous, hate-fuelled armchair warriors.

^ My point is that they are there.


The Iraqis are not in the U.S.

The Americans are in Iraq.


Diplomats, military, and contractors.


They are all adults.

Originally Posted by Milkman

These people are no longer in the service - I know some of them.

They are out in civilian life, now.

Pretty short contracts for the US army, I am surprised.

^ I don't know the specifics about the contract lengths.

I suppose the people I visit and keep in touch with got out because of the deal they made and time they had in before.

It seems very complicated and different for many people.

Bureaucracy.

most of the soldiers on the ground are guilty of

1. growing up poor in america.
2. having a misguided sense of patriotism.
3. ignorance.

i feel tremendous pity for the vast majority of them.

Originally Posted by raycarey

most of the soldiers on the ground are guilty of

1. growing up poor in america.
2. having a misguided sense of patriotism.
3. ignorance.

i feel tremendous pity for the vast majority of them.

Ray you are certainly well informed.

BTW by what manner are you determining most american soldiers are ignorant?

Inquiring minds would like to know!

David Ignatius - The Oval Office Bunker - washingtonpost.com

The Oval Office Bunker

By David Ignatius
Wednesday, April 25, 2007; Page A17

The disconnect that is destroying what's left of the Bush presidency was clear in an image from the Oval Office this week. President Bush was sitting warily in his chair, pursing his lips as if he had just eaten a bad radish, as a reporter asked about the performance of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales in recent congressional testimony concerning the firing of U.S. attorneys.

Prominent Republicans had criticized Gonzales's testimony as evasive and inadequate. But Bush responded blandly that his attorney general had given "a very candid assessment and answered every question he could possibly answer . . . in a way that increased my confidence in his ability to do the job."

...

"This is the most incompetent White House I've seen since I came to Washington," said one GOP senator. "The White House legislative liaison team is incompetent, pitiful, embarrassing. My colleagues can't even tell you who the White House Senate liaison is. There is rank incompetence throughout the government. It's the weakest Cabinet I've seen." And remember, this is a Republican talking.

the white house is just riding it out the next 18 months in a desperately cynical attempt to save face.....at the expense american and iraqi lives, america's reputation abroad, and hundreds of billions of dollars.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

BTW by what manner are you determining most American soldiers are ignorant?

I am not speaking for Ray,

but my position on ignorance is that a fairly substantial percentage of the American public is ignorant: people in my family, of all ages and backgrounds have little clue about the demographics of Iraq, the sectarian division, the background of the schism going (Imam Hussein, 680 A.D.) and they know very little of Iraqi cultural and the geopolitics in involved.

Yet....the Americans are there.

And this ignorance definitely includes Americans that are products of the public high school system who then join the military between the ages of 18-22.

Many of their interviews are downright embarrassing. Recently soldiers have been writing political letters and it reveals they know local tactics, but not the big political and sectarian picture.

If guilty....hang 'em high.

Spanish Judge Indicts 3 U.S. Soldiers Apr 27 01:32 PM US/Eastern
By MAR ROMAN
Associated Press Writer try { insert_digg_btn('world_news'); } catch(e){} MADRID, Spain (AP) - A judge indicted three U.S. soldiers Friday in the 2003 death of a Spanish journalist who was killed when their tank opened fire at a hotel in Baghdad.

Sgt. Shawn Gibson, Capt. Philip Wolford and Lt. Col. Philip DeCamp were charged with homicide in the death of Jose Couso and "a crime against the international community." This is defined under Spanish law as an indiscriminate or excessive attack against civilians during war.

Entire: Spanish Judge Indicts 3 U.S. Soldiers

it's called politics Boon Mee, and they were setting a trap for the President to fall into. Being a bright fellow, he saw the trap and went straight into it.

Democrats, a job well done.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

So if it's a "Quagmire", how did it become one, eh?

Here’s what Democratic Intelligence Committee members were saying about the intelligence they saw… Sen. Carl Levin (D-MI) September, 2002):

“[Saddam] has ignored the mandates of the United Nations, is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.”

Sen. John Rockefeller (D-WV), October, 2002: “There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons. And will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years.”

Sen. Evan Bayh (D-IN), March, 2003: “Bill, I support the president's efforts to disarm Saddam Hussein. I think he was right on in his speech tonight. The lessons we learned following September 11 were that we can't wait to be attacked again, particularly when it involves weapons of mass destruction. So regrettably, Saddam has not done the right thing, which is to disarm, and we're left with no alternative but to take action.”

And Senator Majority Leader Harry Reid…
Sen. Harry Reid (D-NV), September, 2002: “Saddam Hussein, in effect, has thumbed his nose at the world community. And I think that the President's approaching this in the right fashion.”


Whoops!
My Bad...that was then & this is now...

It's good that you brought this up Boon Mee.

It reveals again that 3/4 of the Democrats voted to attack Iraq.

It also show that political parties and partisanship should not mean as much as they now do, with GOP supporting the conflict and D's opposing, according to public opinion poll numbers.

The quotes above reveal the ignorance, arrogance, and selfishness of American politicians.

Reps nd dems=two sides of the same coin...

Originally Posted by stroller

Reps nd dems=two sides of the same coin...

Stroller is spot on as usual.

The Reps and Dems are so similar I consider them the same political party.

Their tents have the same interest groups, with some differences at the fringes,

----X-O-X----

The "O" is the Center.

The X's are the parties. IMO, it's actually like this:

---XX---

The two "XXs" are the center. It should be one "X"