Thread: It's the Karma, stupid...

IT’S THE KARMA, STUPID


There are a lot of bad things you can say about Christianity, especially as an organized religion, but you cannot deny that societies whose cultures have been overwhelmingly influenced by the Protestant version thereof have done rather better in just about every way than societies that have not. The three most notable exceptions—Japan, South Korea and Taiwan—have been profoundly influenced by the USA, and might even be described as the jewels in the American Imperial Crown, as it were.

Protestantism appears to have raised individualism and its concomitant sense of the value of individual human lives to a higher degree than other faiths have. It has also tended to place an inordinately great burden of moral responsibility on each individual, thus creating societies characterized by an adherence to ‘rule of law’, a respect for human rights, and excessive guilt, neurosis and destructive criminality. Prozac might just be the price we pay for our wealth and our freedoms.

Buddhism, which has long been the most attractive of the other “great traditions” to individuals from the Protestant West (most often as a non-pharmaceutical substitute for psychotherapy), is about as different from Protestant Christianity as it’s possible to be.

It is a ‘godless’ religion, if it is considered a religion at all by its adherents in the West, which denies the existence of individual souls and indeed individual ‘selves’ (the root belief of Western Christianity) and posits an eternity of incarnations in which to “get it right”, as opposed to the Christian “one chance and you’re out” approach, resulting either in an eternity of bliss or one of unspeakable torture, rather than an eternity of chances to make it to Buddhahood. And therein lies the “problem”.

The regulating mechanism that Buddhism proposes to make sense of these infinite lives being lived throughout multiple eternities is karma, a Sanskrit word meaning “action”.

Modern Buddhists are at pains to point out that karma has nothing to do with moral justice, or reward and punishment, and especially tend to deny that karma equals “fate” or “destiny”; these Buddhists are usually addressing themselves to Western audiences who have often had enough of the guilt that comes with the Protestant emphasis on judgement, but who are utterly unwilling to give up the empowering notion of individual free will that comes with it in the Christian worldview. Karma is simply a “natural law”, that of “cause and effect”.

Regardless of the somewhat abstruse and undeniably fascinating (to some) discussions in the literature that the apparent contradictions of the notion of karma have given rise to over the almost three millennia of Buddhist development, there is no way of getting around the fact that in the Buddhist view, that mangy dog keeping you awake at night and threatening your children as they wander down the soi may just be your wife’s granddad.

So, whatever you do, don’t hurt that dog.

And that God-King you have to grovel in front of and who holds your life in his hands? His merit, collected through countless lives, is what it is, so don’t cut off his head or otherwise upset the natural karmic order. Same thing goes for the Mercedes-driving psychotic who just ran down a group of ban nok buffaloes waiting to board that crowded oven of a bus.

Got cancer of the liver? Well, as one Zen teacher has said, "Cause and effect are one thing. And what is that one thing? You. That’s why what you do and what happens to you are the same thing." One wonders what those folk at the bus stop had done to have that psycho in a Benz “happen to them”.

The primary image of the Christian faith is that of a suffering man, an innocent man, being murdered by his Imperial masters for the crime of resistance to their rule. That of Buddhism is a golden man-child with a self-satisfied smile on his face as he glances down at his crotch. And Jesus’ response to the sight of suffering and death and hunger? Miracles to heal, revive and feed the suffering, a kind of pre-technological welfare state solution to the human condition. Siddhartha confronting the same? Off to the forest to meditate and fast.

And that is karma: you are what you do, indeed.

[QUOTE=mao say dung;1065812]IT’S THE KARMA, STUPID



Quote Mao Say Dung::
Protestantism appears to have raised individualism and its concomitant sense of the value of individual human lives to a higher degree than other faiths have. It has also tended to place an inordinately great burden of moral responsibility on each individual, thus creating societies characterized by an adherence to ‘rule of law’, a respect for human rights, and excessive guilt, neurosis and destructive criminality. Prozac might just be the price we pay for our wealth and our freedoms.

I disagree.Protestantism, and more so the Catholics,Not only allowed but encouraged their peoples to go out and fight,kill and steal for their faith, 'Go ye into all the world and preach'and aided by their leaders at home kill, rape and steal in the name of their God. History is full of these wars all over the world where the indingenus people where crushed in the name of God: Both Americas.most of Africa,ect.

How would you know that Jesus commented on such things?

^^ As a teacher, I have the feeling that leading/teaching by example is fundamental to any praxis. Which is why I said:

The primary image of the Christian faith is that of a suffering man, an innocent man, being murdered by his Imperial masters for the crime of resistance to their rule. That of Buddhism is a golden man-child with a self-satisfied smile on his face as he glances down at his crotch. And Jesus’ response to the sight of suffering and death and hunger? Miracles to heal, revive and feed the suffering, a kind of pre-technological welfare state solution to the human condition. Siddhartha confronting the same? Off to the forest to meditate and fast.

Also, I think the old "be good and don't fuck people up too much" kind of teachings are probably common to most world religions and kindergarden teachers.

You reference one of the qualities of Christian teaching that I think makes it very different from Buddhism when you bring up the "closeted" prayer thing, which emphasizes the individual nature of the relationship with god, and the "vain repetitions" thing, which could have been aimed directly at Buddhism. Chanting may bring peace to the troubled soul, but it hardly motivates anyone not to rob old ladies the way the notion of eternal damnation might.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

You reference one of the qualities of Christian teaching that I think makes it very different from Buddhism when you bring up the "closeted" prayer thing, which emphasizes the individual nature of the relationship with god, and the "vain repetitions" thing, which could have been aimed directly at Buddhism. Chanting may bring peace to the troubled soul, but it hardly motivates anyone not to rob old ladies the way the notion of eternal damnation might.

"which could have been aimed directly at Buddhism", at least organized Buddhism, and then there is the saying of the rosary, Hail Mary, Our Faddah, and the rest.

As for Buddhism, if you want to keep quiet, there is always zen (which can be quiet or not, moving or still, etc., I realize- "If you talk about it you don't know it", right?). The idea of personal salvation or a personal relationship is foreign to Theravada as far as I can tell. Mayayana Buddhism has been therefore accused of drawing the notion of personal salvation concept, such as it is, from Christianity. http://www.appiusforum.com/mahayana.html Of course, there is the possibility that the teachings of Christ were themselves influenced by Buddhism- lots of trading going on back then- as well as by Egyptian beliefs.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Also, I think the old "be good and don't fuck people up too much" kind of teachings are probably common to most world religions and kindergarden teachers.

By the way, I was thinking more of the "worldly goods and wealth don't bring happiness, there is no salvation in being rich, give your belongings to the poor" message of Christianity relating well to Buddhist teaching rather than the "golden rule".

I think you have brought up an interesting topic, but keeping the conversation moving might require resisting the urge to take a cheap shot (such as "glances down at his crotch" and "kindergarten teachers"). Just sayin', even though I realize we are at Teak Door where a leaven of malice is practically required.

^ Sure enough.

I don't think it's a coincidence that Northern Europe has produced the world's "rule of law" cultures, its social welfare cultures, most of its richest cultures, and more mental illness and suicide per capita than anywhere else has. I think that these things are part of the Protestant heritage.

Buddhism tends to produce cultures characterized by rampant corruption and anti-democratic passivity. The South Koreans, who are arguably Asia's most democratic folk, are also the most "christianized". I don't think this is a coincidence either.

Good posts above - I remember reading the section Robuzo quoted a long time ago, and i remembered it specifically because if flies in the face of how many (most?) Christians are behaving.

But that I find the biggest paradox is how all religions basically say the same, and how the followers manage to twist and pervert the teachings to suit their needs. I don't think anyone who reads say, the New Testament, the Koran or the Buddhist teachings can reconcile the love and compassion they encounter in the scriptures with the manner in which most of the "followers' behave.

[quote=robuzo;1071985]

Originally Posted by mao say dung

By the way, I was thinking more of the "worldly goods and wealth don't bring happiness, there is no salvation in being rich, give your belongings to the poor" message of Christianity relating well to Buddhist teaching rather than the "golden rule".

I think you have brought up an interesting topic, but keeping the conversation moving might require resisting the urge to take a cheap shot (such as "glances down at his crotch" and "kindergarten teachers"). Just sayin', even though I realize we are at Teak Door where a leaven of malice is practically required.

No malice intended, really.

Buddhist Karmic beliefs tend to put the rich on a very high pedestal indeed, regardless of what Siddhartha may or may not have had to say about the value of riches; the idea that multiple rebirths and accumulated Karma therefrom leads to one's station in life is fundamental to Buddhist thought, I think.

I think this is a problem for Buddhist-influenced societies in attempting to create any kind of justice in the day-to-day world, which, in all fairness to Buddhists, may just be an illusion anyway.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

I don't think it's a coincidence that Northern Europe has produced. . .more mental illness and suicide per capita than anywhere else has. I think that these things are part of the Protestant heritage.

Lack of sunshine much of the year might have an effect on mental illness; I'm serious about that. I heard a convincing argument once that manic-depressive disorder is an evolutionary response to the North European solar cycle.

Of course, when it comes to mental illness and suicide, let's not forget Japan which, as Gary Snyder put it, is a ""once-great Buddhist nation" that "quibbles for words on / what kinds of whales they can kill," and "dribbles methyl mercury / like gonorrhea / in the sea". No slouches when it comes to mental illness or suicide.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

Buddhism tends to produce cultures characterized by rampant corruption and anti-democratic passivity. The South Koreans, who are arguably Asia's most democratic folk, are also the most "christianized".

Unless you consider the Filipinos to be Latinos. I kind of do, actually. Of course, they have something like a functioning democracy, too.

^Oops, forgot about the Phillipines, but they are more Catholic than Christian, no? (That's a Korean joke, btw)

And, yes, the Japanese do tend to off themselves at an incredible rate, but they really don't relate suicide to mental illness in quite the same way "we" do. Not yet, at any rate. With the Japanese (and the South Koreans?), suicide is more about morality than depression.

Originally Posted by mao say dung

^Oops, forgot about the Phillipines, but they are more Catholic than Christian, no? (That's a Korean joke, btw)

Those wacky Presbyterians!

Originally Posted by mao say dung

And, yes, the Japanese do tend to off themselves at an incredible rate, but they really don't relate suicide to mental illness in quite the same way "we" do. Not yet, at any rate. With the Japanese (and the South Koreans?), suicide is more about morality than depression.

That's true, although given the rise in the rate of suicide among young people (sometimes really young people), as opposed to disgraced executives and politicians, I really wish they would start rethinking the issue. To be fair, they seem to be.

Japan is an odd case, and introducing it to the topic probably creates a very large red herring. They claim to be non-religious, but every neighborhood has at least a Shinto shrine, often a Buddhist temple; funerals tend to be Buddhist, weddings very often incorporate a Christian element (with the obligatory Paul to the Corinthians "Love is. . ." recited in Japanese; I was at a Japanese wedding at which after the "Christian" ceremony somebody's grandfather started his speech with, "Well, that "love" business certainly was interesting; not sure what all meant, but anyway, let's celebrate the union of our two families!"). Of course, that curious blending of amoral animism (Shinto) with Buddhism does remind me of another place I been in Asia. . .

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

I don't think anyone who reads say, the New Testament, the Koran or the Buddhist teachings can reconcile the love and compassion they encounter in the scriptures with the manner in which most of the "followers' behave.

Indeed. Christians not Christ like, Buddhists not Buddha like.

As\ you is so fekin clever can ya tell me what abstruse means, as in:

Regardless of the somewhat abstruse and undeniably fascinating (to some) discussions in the literature

PS If you want to know more about guilt in religion, marry a catholic.

Originally Posted by chassamui

As\ you is so fekin clever can ya tell me what abstruse means, as in:

Regardless of the somewhat abstruse and undeniably fascinating (to some) discussions in the literature

PS If you want to know more about guilt in religion, marry a catholic.

Philosophical and theological discussions are often abstruse, as in intricate and difficult to understand or opaque to those outside the field. If you ask a priest, "Can God make a rock so big even he can't lift it?" you will get either an abstruse explanation or a punch on the nose, depending upon whether you ask Bishop Neumann or Father Fitzgerald.

Originally Posted by robuzo

Japan is an odd case, and introducing it to the topic probably creates a very large red herring. They claim to be non-religious, but every neighborhood has at least a Shinto shrine, often a Buddhist temple; funerals tend to be Buddhist, weddings very often incorporate a Christian element (with the obligatory Paul to the Corinthians "Love is. . ." recited in Japanese; I was at a Japanese wedding at which after the "Christian" ceremony somebody's grandfather started his speech with, "Well, that "love" business certainly was interesting; not sure what all meant, but anyway, let's celebrate the union of our two families!"). Of course, that curious blending of amoral animism (Shinto) with Buddhism does remind me of another place I been in Asia. . .

No kidding. I often think that Japan and Thailand are very similar in terms of how their "cultures" appear from a "western cultural" viewpoint.

Most Buddhist cultures have maintained an animist element, either in a separate "religion", as in Japan and Korea, or by incorporating animism into local Buddhist practice, as in Thailand and Tibet. Strict Buddhism would hardly satisfy the human need to have some god or spirit they can approach to ask for stuff, since "wanting" is what Buddhism is all about extinguishing.

One thing I notice a lot in reading/translating Japanese literature on CSR (corporate social responsibility) is that Japanese commentators like to point out that concepts of social consciousness and moral responsibility to fellow citizens in the West stem from the Judeo- Christian outlook, which the Japanese lack (the Tokugawas made sure of that). This would seem to strengthen your argument in the first post above. Nevertheless, Japan leads the world in certain aspects of CSR- particularly those that make practical sense, such as fuel efficiency, emissions controls and community relations.

So you are drawing more on Max Weber and the "Protestant work ethic". Of course, you see something very like the Protestant work ethic in China, Japan, and Korea, minus the Protestantism, of course. Some would point to that work ethic as at least a major contributing factor in overseas Chinese success in SE Asia- and North America. Confucian work ethic?

Originally Posted by robuzo

Philosophical and theological discussions are often abstruse, as in intricate and difficult to understand or opaque to those outside the field. If you ask a priest, "Can God make a rock so big even he can't lift it?" you will get either an abstruse explanation or a punch on the nose, depending upon whether you ask Bishop Neumann or Father Fitzgerald.

Very many thanks for that. I thought someone was just taking the (cut and past) piss!


I'll get me coat

^So, in your terms, being "more advanced" doesn't equate to "having done better"? Curious usage if that is the case.