Thread: Israel Bombs Gaza

Originally Posted by sabang

I looked at all three of the links you posted- none of them refer to any fatality caused by Hamas rockets during the 'ceasefire'.

Like I said, you clearly prefer to bury your head in the sand.

The Israel Situation: Rocket Attacks Increased During Truce

If you believe that 2,900 rockets, fired into Israel, DURING THE TRUCE (it was a TRUCE, not a CEASEFIRE) did not result in any devastating maimings and wounded (which is the whole design goal of Kassam rockets), then you must be terribly naive.

Do proportionally more Palestinians get killed - seeing as how Hamas cowardly uses civilians as shield, it seems unavoidable -- but you have Hamas to blame for that, not Israel.

What is there you don't understand about my statement- None Of Your Links Refer to Any Single Fatality Caused by Hamas??

Stay out of Issues- you would be eaten alive.

Originally Posted by sabang

I don't agree- several of Israels actions have been horrific. I don't morally equivocate terrorism.

Continuous action as a government policy?

The worst I would know of recently would be the building of that wall and some consequences of it. I can see why Palestineans are outraged. But I see the Israeli side on this one too.

Just leaving the West Bank wouldn't bring peace. Leaving Gaza didn't.

But always making real peace would be the only way out and if Israel wouldn't go along the West including the USA would pressure them into that direction.

Originally Posted by Takeovers

Continuous action as a government policy?

I find it very hard to believe that forty times as many Palestinians were killed by the Israeli defence Forces in 2007 as Israeli's were killed by Palestinians was not a function of government policy.

Don't you?

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

If you believe that 2,900 rockets, fired into Israel, DURING THE TRUCE (it was a TRUCE, not a CEASEFIRE) did not result in any devastating maimings and wounded (which is the whole design goal of Kassam rockets), then you must be terribly naive.

Reports of casualties are scarce.
Have you had a look at these rockets and how they are launched?

quack, quack.

Originally Posted by sabang

What is there you don't understand about my statement- None Of Your Links Refer to Any Single Fatality Caused by Hamas??

Obviously, you prefer your strawman, as you deliberately prefer to ignore the obvious. That's fine, some people prefer deluding themselves with ignorance, as you clearly prefer to do.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

The patience of the Israelis reached its end today. After taking more that 200 missile attacks in the past week, the IDF attacked every known Hamas security station in Gaza today, killing hundreds and wounding hundreds more.

Thanks for that quote Boon Mee posted, pointing out once again that Israel has targeted military targets, while Hamas just lob thousands of rockets into Israel, deliberately into civilian targets, with the intent of inflicting as much civilian damages as possible.

It's quite obvious that sabang prefers to not educate himself on what he is talking about, but nevertheless, here's another link with interesting content:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/hta.../20080520.aspx

Relevant information: "For every 30-40 Kassams fired, an Israeli is killed or wounded. Until this year, for every 2-3 Kassams fired, a Palestinian is killed or wounded by Israeli military operations against the firing sites and workshops that build the rockets. For the last six months or so, the Israelis have been more precise in their retaliation, trying to limit Palestinian civilian casualties. For the Palestinians, causing Israeli civilian casualties is their main goal."

"So far, the war the Palestinians began in late 2000, has left 5,800 people dead, 82 percent of them Palestinians."

List of Qassam rocket attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It's interesting to also compare Palestinian casualties *casued by Palestinians*, wich of course our friends in this thread will attribute to the israelis (like the 5 and 13 year old girls recently killed by Palestinian rockets gone astray).

Originally Posted by kingwilly

Let me tell you, the Israelis are just as bad as the bladdy Nazis in the first place, the state of Israel should be forfeit due to their behavior.

Considering how the Israelis act when they are traveling I have no doubt about Willys statement.

A bigger bunch of coonts one could never run into and its very easy to understand why every bastard hates them including the Palestinians.

They are very foking lucky, if it where not for the yanks feeding them money and military might they would of been blown of the face of the earth many years ago.

The rag heads are foked as well but the Israelis are right down there with them.

Fok both of them, let them blow themselves to oblivion as the world don't need either of them.

Originally Posted by terry57

Considering how the Israelis act when they are traveling I have no doubt about Willys statement.

A bigger bunch of coonts one could never run into and its very easy to understand why every bastard hates them including the Palestinians.

The same can be said for Australians abroad, or Brits abroad, or Chinese mainlanders abroad -- does that means we should kick them out of their country?

In fact Australia is a good example, seeing as how it was an artificially created country as well (in other words, Brits were shipped there to colonize it) - so do we kick Aussies out?

This is all happening because the Neocons, the Bush Administration, the Israelis extremists and the US Christians fundamentalists have destroyed the peace process that took 10 years to materialize.

They wanted a United Israel for some silly reasons, and having a Palestine state could only break up that plan. Their only solution will be to commit a genocide with the world standing by watching, as usual.

Originally Posted by sabang

Land for Peace.

That's the most ambiguous, deceptive, challenging soundbite to come out of the ME in the past 60 years.

What does it mean? How much land, and where? In relation to the ME, some have suggested having returned Sinai and Golan, with the West Bank and Gaza designated for a future Pal state, East Jerusalem would be enough. Islamists, otoh, bandy the slogan Land for Peace to mean nothing less than the land between Golan and Eilat. Does anyone have views on what should be fair and reasonable, in return for a resolute, long lasting peace in the region? Is it land, or removal of the Jew?

Then, who does anyone negotiate with? Is it the Pals, in which case the rest of the arab/muslim world are not bound by any agreement, or the arab/muslim clerics and govs - and people - as a collective?

And then, what Peace does any reasonable person imagine, when all that's needed is a call to arms under the flag of allah/jihad, and the still uneducated masses will flock? Or, would anyone care to propose that with a so-called peace would come education for the masses, so they can start thinking for themselves?

Some might even choose to believe that radical rhetoric is a bluff and should not be taken at face value, since its vocalists are actually looking for a way to justify deserting allah and visions of the Caliphate, or that this principle could be removed from the school curriculum, to be replaced with teachings of peace, as in true peace, with the Jew, first, and then the infidel.


Come now!

^ The nation of Palestine will be based on the 1967 borders, with some tweaks and land trading here and there keda- no secret about that.

I seem to remember you stating that the 'scourge of Allah' is the worst threat the world has ever faced, so that rather defines your attitudes. However the behind the scenes negotiations involving the Palestinian Authority, Israeli gov't, and in a more informal capacity US gov't, UN and Arab League are based around this.

Really, the latest fireworks are just yet another sideshow, albeit a depressing spectacle.

Originally Posted by sabang

^ The nation of Palestine will be based on the 1967 borders, with some tweaks and land trading here and there keda- no secret about that.

I seem to remember you stating that the 'scourge of Allah' is the worst threat the world has ever faced, so that rather defines your attitudes. However the behind the scenes negotiations involving the Palestinian Authority, Israeli gov't, and in a more informal capacity US gov't, UN and Arab League are based around this.

Really, the latest fireworks are just yet another sideshow, albeit a depressing spectacle.

Why should you be offended at being asked if you believe it is reasonable, considering you first touted the slogan and then its defining source?

Must I be wrong to ask, simply because in my opinion the 'scourge of Allah' remains the world's most insidious threat to civilisation and progress? - can't see a connection, please clarify.

Originally Posted by keda

Why should you be offended

I'm not the least offended keda- what made you think that?

If I got it wrong, correct me, but I was stating what I believe to be true- you are deeply sceptical about there being any workable peace betweeen Palestine and Israel, your main tenet being the wider Islamic issues.

I can't say you got it wrong...seeing as nobody has got it right yet there's no measure for comparison.

As to your other point, if I may call it that, spot on because I am truly sceptical about there being a workable peace betweeen the Pals and Israel. Is there anything at all you find troublesome or intrinsically wrong with that, considering the matter has only been grinding for 60 years?

so Hamas uses longer range rockets and more Israelis than before are now at risk ...................................

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Obviously, you prefer your strawman, as you deliberately prefer to ignore the obvious. That's fine, some people prefer deluding themselves with ignorance, as you clearly prefer to do.

Any numbers to show, Daffy?
How many thousands have been killed by these devastating rocket attacks?

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

It's interesting to also compare Palestinian casualties *casued by Palestinians*, wich of course our friends in this thread will attribute to the israelis (like the 5 and 13 year old girls recently killed by Palestinian rockets gone astray).

Go on then, compare.
How many casualties from stray Hams rockets, how many from Israeli "precision" missiles?

quack, quack.

It's ok for Hamas to lob rockets into Israel because they don't kill many people, but wrong for Israel to retaliate because they do kill many people...Is that what you're implying, sTroller?

How many nationality's are debating this? I will venture this statement that most if not none of the Country's we represent would accept any random rocket attacks on our soil no matter what the argument behind it was, Imagine England being hit by rockets from Belgium every day or Sweden being hit by rockets from Poland, the responses would be infinitively much stronger than what Israel is doing, it is a funny world where rocket attacks is regarded as a living condition that some country's must endure without retaliating, when the same condition would be regarded as totally outrageous and unacceptable and a declaration of war in our own country's no matter the political argument that preceded the attacks.

In this case suddenly everybody is crying bloody murder and the extremist Arabs is suddenly our friends and innocent victims and the Palestinians role as the historically foremost creaters and sponsors of Arab and World terrorism is conveniently forgotten.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

The same can be said for Australians abroad, or Brits abroad, or Chinese mainlanders abroad -- does that means we should kick them out of their country?

In fact Australia is a good example, seeing as how it was an artificially created country as well (in other words, Brits were shipped there to colonize it) - so do we kick Aussies out?

No way Daffy, no other people on this earth can hold a candle to the ignorance and rudeness of the Israelis, they truly think they are the chosen ones and look down upon others especially the Thais.
So much so that they are banned from entering certain guest houses and restaurants, Malaysia has taken it a step further and banned the bastards all together. More power to Malaysia I say as its a pleasure to travel in a country where I don't have to interact with those muppets.

As far as Aussie goes you'll have to run that one by the Poms as there the buggers that where pinching loafs of bread in Blighty and then ended up in Australia running amok and killing all the aboriginals.

Bloody lucky they were to end up here and they been coming in droves since.
But to answer your question, that being [ do we kick all the Australians out? ] the correct answer would have to be " NO " but we'd be extremely happy for some of those bread stealing Pommy bastards to get back on the boat.

Cheers Daffy, hope this helps sort things.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

so do we kick Aussies out?

yep , and give it back to us blackfellas

Israel tanks mass near Gaza
29/12/2008

Israeli tanks massed at the Gaza border on Monday as warplanes continued pounding Hamas targets in the densely populated enclave where raids have killed more than 300 people in two days.

Dozens of tanks and personnel carriers idled at several points near the border after Israel warned it could launch a ground offensive in addition to its massive air blitz.



An Israeli army soldier prays next to a tank near the northern Israeli-Gaza Strip border.

Hamas responded to the continuing bombardment by firing rockets the farthest yet into Israel, with one striking not far from Ashdod, Israel's second-largest port, some 30 kilometres (18 miles) north of Gaza. It caused no casualties, medics said.

The Islamist movement accused Israel of "committing a holocaust as the whole world watches and doesn't lift a finger to stop it."

Hamas spokesman Fawzi Barhum said the movement "reserves the right to hit back at this aggression with martyr operations," meaning suicide bombings of the sort Hamas has not carried out inside Israel since January 2005.

Britain, France and Russia joined the growing international chorus for a halt to the violence.

Pope Benedict XVI implored the international community to do "all it can to help the Israelis and Palestinians on this dead-end road... and not to give in to the perverse logic of confrontation and violence."

UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon added his voice to the UN Security Council's call for an immediate end to hostilities, with his spokeswoman saying "he strongly urges once again an immediate stop to all acts of violence."

But Israeli Defence Minster Ehud Barak vowed to "expand and deepen" the bombing blitz, which was unleashed in retaliation for persistent rocket fire by militant groups.

"If it's necessary to deploy ground forces to defend our citizens, we will do so," his spokesman quoted him as saying.

The cabinet gave the green light to call up 6,500 reserve soldiers, a senior official told reporters after the meeting.

Warplanes continued to pound the impoverished and overcrowded territory of 1.5 million people, where many streets were deserted, and schools and shops stayed shut as hundreds of funerals were held.

Jets bombed a series of tunnels on Gaza's border with Egypt -- a lifeline used by Hamas to smuggle goods and weapons into the enclave, which has been virtually sealed off by Israel since the Islamists seized power in June 2007.

Later on Sunday, jets targeted several metal workshops, which the Israeli army said were being used to manufacture makeshift rockets.

Another strike on a mosque in the Jabaliya refugee camp north of Gaza City left four dead, including a four-year-old girl, according to the head of Gaza's emergency services Moawiya Hassanein.

One woman and a man were also killed when a missile hit a family home in the neighbourhood of Zeitoun in eastern Gaza City, medics said.

Aircraft also bombed Gaza City's Islamic University early on Monday, a stronghold symbol of Hamas. Fire and smoke billowed from the building which was hit by at least five missiles, according to witnesses.

And as pressure mounted within the impoverished territory, dozens of Gazans tried to break through the border into Egypt on Sunday, only to be stopped by Egyptian police firing into the air.

An Egyptian policeman was killed and another wounded by shots from across the border in the divided town of Rafah, a security official and medics said, adding that the source of the fire was unclear.

A Palestinian human rights group branded the Israeli pounding of Gaza one of the bloodiest days in Israel's 40-year occupation. As well as more than 300 dead, more than 600 people have been wounded, medics said.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said the campaign was launched "in order to regain a normal life for the citizens in the south who have suffered for many years from incessant rocket, mortar and terror attacks."

Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni urged the international community to put the blame squarely on Hamas.

"I expect the international community, including the entire Arab world, to send a clear message to Hamas: 'It is your fault. It's your responsibility. You're the one who's being condemned,'" she told US television network NBC.

The Israeli bombardment has sparked widespread international concern.

Egypt, which brokered a six-month truce between Israel and Hamas that expired on December 19, said it was trying to negotiate a new ceasefire.

And the UN envoy to the Middle East Robert Serry called for a new truce with international backing, telling AFP in an interview that there was no military solution to the conflict.

But a senior Israeli official insisted: "We have our goals and our timetable, and we don't seek mediation."



Smoke billows from a targeted location inside the northern Gaza Strip during an Israeli air raid.

Israel in the meanwhile announced it would allow 100 truck-loads of humanitarian aid into Gaza on Monday but said it would maintain its crippling blockade on the impoverished territory.

Israel's main ally Washington blamed Hamas "thugs" for provoking the offensive by firing rockets into the Jewish state from Gaza, and urged Israel to avoid causing civilian casualties.

The Israeli offensive sparked protests across the world. In the occupied West Bank, two demonstrators were killed in clashes with police.

Israel unleashed "Operation Cast Lead" against Hamas in the middle of Saturday morning, with some 60 warplanes hitting more than 50 targets in just a few minutes.

By Sunday, some 230 targets had been hit, the military said.

Hamas has responded by firing more than 90 rockets and mortar rounds at Israel, killing one man and wounding some 20 people.

The Israeli blitz came after days of spiralling violence since the expiry of the Gaza truce. It comes less than two months before snap parliamentary elections in Israel called for February 10.

bangkokpost.com

Britain, France and Russia joined the growing international chorus for a halt to the violence.

Must be the media I frequent, because I never heard about any international chorus when Hamas was lobbing rockets into Israel, during a 'truce'. Comforting to know Papa has found his voice, too.

Egypt, which brokered a six-month truce between Israel and Hamas that expired on December 19, said it was trying to negotiate a new ceasefire.

I suggest the next truce or ceasefire they negotiate include a clause that it applies to both sides, not just the Israelis.

Hamas has responded by firing more than 90 rockets and mortar rounds at Israel, killing one man and wounding some 20 people.

Hamas did not respond, they merely continued firing rockets into Israel as they have done throughout the 'truce', which to them appears to be a legal instrument that prohibits retaliation.