The God Delusion

**spiff** · 13-12-2008, 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Just because you say something is hierarchically on a higher level, according to your perception, doesn't actually make it so. Just because you have more or less of an abhorrence to terminate its life, based on it's arbitrary position on a scale you posit, doesn't make that scale universal, or even a 'scale' (i.e. mounting or differing values) at all.

Erm, I acknowledged this the first time you brought it up. A scale is still a scale though, whether you agree with the criteria it is based on or not.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Pretty clear, though I'd assume you'd keep missing it.

As a valid example -- while you may keep missing pretty obvious core points (on purpose, or simply by conjecture), some people may subsequently label and consider you to be 'dumb', 'illiterate', 'clueless', [insert your own debasing qualifier here] - in essence, placing you on a lower rung to their own higher position, on an arbitrary scale of 'smart' to 'ludicrous idiot' (let's say).

What's this for, yet again?
Bit of an arrogant knobend, aren't you boy?

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

While this may make mud slinging and character assassination certainly easier, nevertheless, all it means is that you both share different value systems, different priorities, and different backgrounds - similarly, your antagonists may excel (compared to you) at educational backgrounds, literacy, perspective, or other intellectual and professional abilities -- yet, you may have them beat at fish gutting, beer guzzling, can skull crushing, engine repair, bar room brawls, dog grooming, and sheep shearing - abilities which they suck at. The key is being aware that within each of your specific environments you each can excel at your specific adaptations, whereas the other will not - which neither makes either of you better or worse, yet simply makes you differently abled.

Yeah, people excel in different areas and have different value systems.
Not sure I'd rank beer-guzzling as a skill on par with electrical engineering, but I suppose that's just my subjective value system showing again.

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

The same applies to nearly all organisms on this planet -- so no matter how much superior you consider yourself to another organism, you're not. The claimed superiority is only in your head, based on a arbitrarily established set of rules, which you cling to, claiming they are 'values'. They are no such thing, IMO.

Every species has its intrinsic value and place on the planet, I agree with this.

Ok, I understand now. Clear enough.
An ant's life has the same value as that of a human, in your opinion. Because your "bio diversity values" are the only valid ones, everybody else is clinging to an arbitrary set of rules in their heads.

Thanks for sharing.

DaffyDuck · 13-12-2008, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by spiff

A scale is still a scale though, whether you agree with the criteria it is based on or not.

But my point is, that there is no scale, hence, no criteria to attach to it.

Originally Posted by spiff

Ok, I understand now. Clear enough.
An ant's life has the same value as that of a human, in your opinion. Because your "bio diversity values" are the only valid ones, everybody else is clinging to an arbitrary set of rules in their heads.

Thanks for sharing.

I'm glad I was able to explain it, and that we can agree - even if it were to disagree, whatever the case might be.

Cheers.

**kwai73** · 20-12-2008, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Texpat

Much the same how I feel about queers.

Makes me laugh to imagine how a fundamentalist Christian or Muslim would react to being equated with a homosexualist!

It's a fair comparison though. As long as they leave me and mine alone.......

**rubbajohnny** · 21-12-2008, 06:05 PM

Is this God?

**kwai73** · 21-12-2008, 06:16 PM

In his Allah incarnation, no?

**Raffles** · 21-12-2008, 06:32 PM

Convincing those non-believers to believe in God as a show using his mind tricks - exactly the same as those christian charlatans - hilarious

**MUSTY** · 25-12-2008, 06:55 AM

Hey, Merry Christmas, seems a good time to throw some bait out there.

I have enjoyed reading the thread and invigorated by the passions expressed.
If I could judge the debate, I would say that everyone is right in there opinions.
Because it is their core beliefs that are expressed, their truths. And we all know
that our beliefs, empowers us every day. It comforts us, it gives us our convictions, strengths, exposes or weaknesses, passions, dislikes, loves and it makes things simply for each and every one of us in the way that each and every one of us needs. That being a real truth, that simple things leave us more time to enjoy the things we choice to enjoy in our life's.

Every decision or action has an effect on something. You can see it half full or half empty, your choice. So if the thread is about beliefs, then it appears that everyone has one, even if it is to believe about nothing.

A universal truth can always be debated. Our religions may have evolved from self awareness, a human condition, a bi product of our inner search and development.

Enough said, time for an ending piece of humour.

Atheism is a non profit organisation, and can an Atheist get insurance against acts of God?

**ChiangMai noon** · 25-12-2008, 07:02 AM

^
goof post.

merry christmas.

thanks for getting us back on topic too.

**phuketbound** · 27-12-2008, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

guess what I'm most interested in Chitown is why, in this day and age are there so many people of all religions willing to bypass reason with a leap of faith.

never have we ben as progressive scientifically.

we can date the earth to within a million years of it's birth and give the exact mass of a mountain, yet people insist on this silliness which is pretty much fuking up the world.

and that's all religion.

i would destroy all religious manuscript and start again.

I haven't read the whole thread CMN, but I thought I could answer this question for you. Being raised as a catholic, people will believe what they are taught and brought up in. Some will keep with that faith and believe is inherently so without questioning it. It is ingrained.

Then there are others like myself, who have questioned what they were told, and learned about other religions and philosophies, and developed their own beliefs. Nothing against Christians as I am still a Christian, and have many friends who are. I don't go to church anymore, but I still hold onto Christian values that I was taught, and that also run through other religions and philosophies out there.

**Norton** · 06-01-2009, 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by phuketbound

I still hold onto Christian values that I was taught, and that also run through other religions and philosophies out there.

They all have a common base don't they? Too bad religious "organizations" have lost the basic premise along the way.

**phuketbound** · 07-01-2009, 11:35 PM

More like a common teaching. Yes, many people still believe in these religious 'organizations' as you put it, even as we speak. What does that say?

**Norton** · 08-01-2009, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by phuketbound

Yes, many people still believe in these religious 'organizations' as you put it, even as we speak. What does that say?

It says humans require validation of their beliefs via association with people of like belief. As part of these "congregations" of like minded people an individual can find solace in knowing they are not alone in their belief. The leaders of these organizations produce dogma and rules based on "interpretation" of the teachings of the original founders of the religion. This leads to schisms and strife within all religious persuasions. Shame people need this validation via belonging to an organization rather than establishing their own moral behavior practices.

DaffyDuck · 08-01-2009, 02:23 PM

Originally Posted by phuketbound

More like a common teaching. Yes, many people still believe in these religious 'organizations' as you put it, even as we speak. What does that say?

...that most people are, essentially, sheep.

**phuketbound** · 08-01-2009, 09:55 PM

Yes, daffy and Norton, that is what I believe. I was waiting for you to say it.

You said it better than I could.

War in the name of religion sucks.

**Redrum** · 08-01-2009, 10:30 PM

In the UK, some organisation or other has just took out lots of bus adverts declaring that there's no God.

I don't see the point myself.

This campaign to put alternative slogans on London buses will make people think - and thinking is anathema to religion

Professor Richard Dawkins

**Looper** · 08-01-2009, 10:50 PM

I think the church should fight back with some of its own bus slogans.

None of this pissing about with 'Jesus Loves You' shite.

Something more along the lines of 'Fear the Lord or Burn for all Eternity'

DaffyDuck · 09-01-2009, 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Redrum

In the UK, some organisation or other has just took out lots of bus adverts declaring that there's no God.

I don't see the point myself.

Then, sadly, it missed the point of making you think

Personally, I like the concept - though I doubt it could be implemented in the USA, where any such attempt would result in 'loving christians' smashing the Bus' windows with rocks...

The fallacy in the argument of trying to make religious people think is the same as squeezing water out of a rock -- you can't get something where there is nothing - though possibly they have an effect on the kind of people that simply don't tend to think about these matters at all...

**Redrum** · 09-01-2009, 05:49 AM

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Then, sadly, it missed the point of making you think

About what, DD?

DaffyDuck · 09-01-2009, 08:08 AM

Originally Posted by Redrum

Originally Posted by DaffyDuck

Then, sadly, it missed the point of making you think

About what, DD?

Exactly.

**Redrum** · 09-01-2009, 03:43 PM

Seriously, DD, what am I supposed to be thinking about?

That there's no God?

Help me out.

**MUSTY** · 10-01-2009, 06:32 AM

D.D - Question and answer time,
1. Did you ever believe in God?
2. Alternatively, did you ever believe in some other god like thing?
3. Do you believe in yourself?
4. If you believe in anything, what is it?
5. Do you consider yourself better/smarter than other people (eg. sheep theory)
6. If believing in something gives a person strength, conviction,relieve, security, would you want to take this away from them knowing your believe is that god does not exist?
7. Did you ever tell your children that Santa doesn't exist or were you happy
that your children were happy in Santa's existence?

**Loy Toy** · 10-01-2009, 07:03 AM

Religion hmmmmmmmmmm!

I was born under the Church of England Banner and hid under the bed so I didn't have to go to Sunday school.

Was married into the Catholic Religion and whilst I did appease my first wife and accompany her to church for the first 6 months of our marriage it did not last. Basically I could not stand the hypocracy but that maybe was because of the people who I was with at the time!

Now have lived and worked in countries where the people pratice varying religions and my outlook on life and religion has never changed.

Let people believe in what they want and hope that those same people don't try to change my beliefs which are.......... live every day to it's fullest, as honestly as possible and take care of the people you love.

I really don't know about gods and spirits but deep down hope there is some kind of afterlife.

If religion can save the world I hope whoever is in charge gets off his/ her arse and does something about it before it is too late.

DaffyDuck · 10-01-2009, 07:12 AM