The God Delusion

**ChiangMai noon** · 04-12-2008, 08:28 PM

guess what I'm most interested in Chitown is why, in this day and age are there so many people of all religions willing to bypass reason with a leap of faith.

never have we ben as progressive scientifically.

we can date the earth to within a million years of it's birth and give the exact mass of a mountain, yet people insist on this silliness which is pretty much fuking up the world.

and that's all religion.

i would destroy all religious manuscript and start again.

**ChiangMai noon** · 04-12-2008, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by chitown

Do you think I am a nutter?

if you believe in God, I'm afraid to say I have no choice.

**chitown** · 04-12-2008, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Originally Posted by chitown

Do you think I am a nutter?

if you believe in God, I'm afraid to say I have no choice.

I am a Free Mason and in the vows of a Free Mason you are asked in whom do you place your faith? I said God and I do. To be a Free Mason, you must believe in the Supreme Being.

**Boon Mee** · 04-12-2008, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

i would destroy all religious manuscript and start again.

Buddhist too?

**ChiangMai noon** · 04-12-2008, 08:32 PM

Originally Posted by chitown

To be a Free Mason, you must believe in the Supreme Being.

there we go then.

proof positive.

thread closed.

**MeMock** · 04-12-2008, 08:33 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

we can date the earth to within a million years of it's birth

Says who?

A scientist? Why do you believe him/her?

I can find thousands of scientist who can date the earth to say 50,000 years.

Why do you believe one over the other?

A scientist is someone who says "You have 1.5 million hairs on your head and if you don't believe me then count them."

**chitown** · 04-12-2008, 08:33 PM

If you are TRULY asking, then go read something by an expert, don't ask at TD man!!

I suspect you are wanting to banter on in a thread here and are not really looking for the answer at all.

Am I right?

**Boon Mee** · 04-12-2008, 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Originally Posted by chitown

To be a Free Mason, you must believe in the Supreme Being.

there we go then.

proof positive.

thread closed.

Proof positive of what pray tell...?

**ChiangMai noon** · 04-12-2008, 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by MeMock

Why do you believe one over the other?

A scientist is someone who says "You have 1.5 million hairs on your head and if you don't believe me then count them."

oh dear.

you do yourself a dis service memock.

there is not a respected scientist in the world that will tell you the earth is less than a few billion years old.

they had it licked in about 1750.

**chitown** · 04-12-2008, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Originally Posted by chitown

To be a Free Mason, you must believe in the Supreme Being.

there we go then.

proof positive.

thread closed.

Proof positive of what pray tell...?

" Don't use the word pray in this thread"

**ChiangMai noon** · 04-12-2008, 08:36 PM

Originally Posted by chitown

Am I right?

no.....

i'm interested in why you believe in a supreme being.

is it so you could become a freemason.

i had to pledge allegiance to God and the Queen to become a boyscout cos all my mates were in the scouts.

was nearly sick on both counts so didn't go back the following week.

**Bugs** · 04-12-2008, 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by watterinja

You only need look around you to see that the universe was designed by a superior being. Christians call Him the Creator. The level of intricate detail & perfection could never be attributed to pure statistical chance - it is there by design.

The level of intricate detail & perfection?
Maybe you need to take a look around in nature, now and in the past. Rarely in nature does one come across anything close to perfection. In fact one of the things that they teach you first when learning how to camouflage things is to basically “make it messy” because nature is messy – no straight lines, etc.

As for detail – it’s not like there was a loud bang, a bit of lighting, a puff of smoke and then there was a frog. Another bang, another bit of lighting, and some more smoke, and boom there was a snake, etc, etc. It has taken millions and millions of years, and million and millions of changes before the ‘”frog” of the past became the “frog” of today.

I would agree the chances are pretty steep that the world could be created in the level of detail that exists today in a short period of time. But that did not happen.

And the changes the “frog” of the past went thru were not random nor by chance. The thing that was to become a frog changed, and changed, and changed, over the millions of years not by chance, but because the traits that remained were the best traits for that particular organism to maintain to get the most out of the environment it was in at the time – had very little to do with chance.

I really do get tired of folks who think the only alternatives are chance on the one hand, and intelligent design on the other. Things have ended up the way they are because of evolution/ natural selection – which has very little to do with chance or intelligent design.

An easy way to think of this as pointed out by Dawkins is to picture a mountaintop with a shear cliff on one side and a very gradual slope on the other side. Too many times theists point to the mountaintop from the base of the cliff and say there is no way for us to get from here to there so there must be a god. The problem is one does not have to go up the shear cliff to reach the top of the mountain – they can take the much easier path up the gradual slope. It takes much, much longer, but it can be done. And that is IMHO how things got to be there way they are – natural selection is the gradual slope that has taken millions and millions of years to climb.

**Boon Mee** · 04-12-2008, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by chitown

If you are TRULY asking, then go read something by an expert, don't ask at TD man!!

I suspect you are wanting to banter on in a thread here and are not really looking for the answer at all.

Am I right?

heh...it's like this with all Blackballed attempted entrants to The Craft.

They get a bit defensive...

**jim1176** · 04-12-2008, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

If you believe in God, what is it that you believe in and whatever for, in this day and age there are still people that believe the Earth is no more than 10,000 years old. What are those bastards smoking?

The larger point is believing in good over evil, good samatarian etc. Religion externalizes this debate from oneself.

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Had never given too much thought to people's faith before, always sort of thought they were a bit loony, but he does make some very saliant points about the incredible dangers of all faith (lack of reason). I think I'm going to be a more active atheist from now on and argue with people who aren't.

What are the dangers to being a christian? Do unto others etc etc.... ala G.W. Bush

With 6 billion people in the world it is pointless to argue. Write a book if you have something to say.

**MeMock** · 04-12-2008, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Originally Posted by MeMock

Why do you believe one over the other?

A scientist is someone who says "You have 1.5 million hairs on your head and if you don't believe me then count them."

oh dear.

you do yourself a dis service memock.

there is not a respected scientist in the world that will tell you the earth is less than a few billion years old.

they had it licked in about 1750.

You don't get what I am trying to say do you nooners?

Respected in whose eyes? Yours. Why are you all of a sudden the expert on everything? Are you saying the scientist(s) that I believe in aren't respected? How do you know? You are putting me and others down because you think you know the answers.

You need to show some respect.

**ChiangMai noon** · 04-12-2008, 08:39 PM

actually no chi....

it's an answer like bugs's response from both sides that i was looking for.

i'll step back now and let the smart people talk.

**ChiangMai noon** · 04-12-2008, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by MeMock

Respected in whose eyes? Yours. Why are you all of a sudden the expert on everything? Are you saying the scientist(s) that I believe in aren't respected? How do you know? You are putting me and others down because you think you know the answers.

i have seen a hundred documentaries and read a hundred different books about the beginnings of the universe, from Attenborough to Hawkin and not one puts the earth at less than several billion years old.

why is that?

the BBC etc would rather air fact than fantasy.

direct me to a documentary that claims the earth is as young as you say it is memock.

i'll watch it with an open mind.

**chitown** · 04-12-2008, 08:43 PM

CMN, If you want to read a good book that can answer your questions then read the "Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel.

He is a guy that asked the same question you asked here and went out to disprove Christianity and while doing so found all the proof he needed to change his mind.

I met him when I sat next to him once on a United flight. He was / is a professional journalist and very intelligent.

I suspect you are not really asking, but wanting to debate!!

But really, if you are open minded and truly wanting to see all the views then why not?

**MeMock** · 04-12-2008, 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Originally Posted by MeMock

Respected in whose eyes? Yours. Why are you all of a sudden the expert on everything? Are you saying the scientist(s) that I believe in aren't respected? How do you know? You are putting me and others down because you think you know the answers.

i have seen a hundred documentaries and read a hundred different books about the beginnings of the universe, from Attenborough to Hawkin and not one puts the earth at less than several billion years old.

why is that?

the BBC etc would rather air fact than fantasy.

direct me to a documentary that claims the earth is as young as you say it is memock.

i'll watch it with an open mind.

Thats because that is the books you choice to read. If I sent you a book from a respected scientist saying something different would you read it?

**ChiangMai noon** · 04-12-2008, 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by MeMock

respected scientist

a respected christian scientist?

When I was 7 I found a fossil on a beach in South Wales.

Devil's toenail it was called.

common enough fossil and not very old, but I was very excited so wanted my mum to take me to the museum of Wales to get it dated.

some sort of sea creature type thingy that had been extinct for millions of years.

now, how did they date it memock?

do you think they guessed?

do you believe in dinosaurs?

**chitown** · 04-12-2008, 08:54 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Originally Posted by MeMock

respected scientist

a respected christian scientist?

When I was 7 I found a fossil on a beach in South Wales.

Devil's toenail it was called.

common enough fossil and not very old, but I was very excited so wanted my mum to take me to the museum of Wales to get it dated.

some sort of sea creature type thingy that had been extinct for millions of years.

now, how did they date it memock?

do you think they guessed?

do you believe in dinosaurs?

There are many scientists that would give it a different dating. There are many scientists that have dated ancient manuscripts, archeological digs, and other finds that correspond with Biblical history that show the earth dated at 7000 to 10000 years old.

**AntRobertson** · 04-12-2008, 08:56 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Is it about time for a concerted fightback against all religion by atheists?

My problem with that is the tendency for some atheists to become dogmatic themselves, the tendency to apply the same ferverent arguments and reliance on faith. Atheism as a religion itself basically.

Personally I'd consider myself an agnostic these days as my position on religion has softened quite a lot.

**MeMock** · 04-12-2008, 08:57 PM

Nooners remember when St Helens (i think it was) Erupted a few years (decades) ago in the USA. Once the rock has cooled for a while they took some of the samples to 'respected scientist' and asked them to date when they think the volcanic samples had exploded.

Some answers were 500,000, 1 m, 2 m years ago. They were rather red faced when told it was actually weeks (month/years)

**MeMock** · 04-12-2008, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

now, how did they date it memock?

I dunno Nooners, you tell me - your telling the story.

How did they date it? How do you know they dated it correctly?

**chitown** · 04-12-2008, 09:00 PM

Originally Posted by ChiangMai noon

Originally Posted by chitown

There are many scientists that have dated ancient manuscripts, archeological digs, and other finds that correspond with Biblical history that show the earth dated at 7000 to 10000 years old.

oh jesus....

What? I am not a scientist so you'll have to take it up with them.

Scientist are 50 / 50 on the matter of carbon dating accuracy.

Thread: The God Delusion

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