Thread: Learning by rote is good?

^ and? your point is?

I thought that was pretty self-evident; they're hardly compulsory attributes are they.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Originally Posted by sabang

He went on to graduate summa cum laude from Harvard and Columbia, becoming the first black editor of the Harvard Law Review in the process. He became a law professor also, and he maintained his interest in contributing to society as a community organiser. And so on to become a Senator and now it would seem your next President. Quite an inspirational story, for many. I hear all this stuff about Lincoln being born in a log cabin, or Nixon coming from humble roots- I had always thought Americans liked stuff like that. But it seems Republicans are more comfortable with plutocrats these days.

Hmmm, Gordon Brown was an intellectual and real king as the chancellor of the Exchequer; what's happening to him as the UK's leader?

Strangely enough, the fact that we're now deeply in the financial shit has brought out the best in him. He should have stayed at number 11 and ordered a replacement for the lying toerag at number 10.

^ Huh? He and Alistair Darling are moving to bail out the failing Brit banks with £500bn of public money, and now he's pressuring Iceland to cough up the cash that British public groups and bldg societies put in Iceland's banks to make more interest, probably tax free. His pressure has caused Iceland's krone to drop but Iceland is taking a firm stance -- it will ensure its people's savings are safe before it helps anyone else. Brown is only trying to prop up his interests and political standings with the Brits by pressuring this small nation, which will likely have to beg at IMF's door to save it.

As a condition of being given a licence to trade in the UK the Icelandic banks were obliged to give legal undertakings to the Financial Services Compensation Scheme - a fund of last resort which guarantees retail customers compensation of £50,000 per institution if things go wrong. I believe there's a similar scheme in the USA. Once things did start to go wrong the Icelandic Prime Minister told the banks that they could renege on these undertakings. He told them to break the law. He had no right to do that. If they want to trade in our country they play by our rules. Fortunately Iceland has assets in the UK which our government has frozen. That's why they're all being as nice as pie in Reykjavik. We have them by the danglies.

The point I was making before you came out with the 'poor plucky little Icelanders' bullshit was that Gordon Brown was much better suited to being Chancellor as he doesn't have the schmoozing skills necessary to be a good Prime Minister.

PS: The interest wasn't tax free - although I'd have thought as a good little capitalist you'd have been happier if it were. Obviously not when it's someone else's money.

^ I just heard about this "Icesave" program. I do not know all the details which is why I was questioning it. Why were people and local govts choosing this offshore bank for savings? Seemed the same as parking your money in Guernsey, away from the tax man, is all, IMO.
You said the crisis has brought the best out of Brown. He needs all the help he can get right now. I agree, he should have stayed where he was as chancellor, but that's men and politics. And quit being so snippy just because I question or disagree.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Why were people and local govts choosing this offshore bank for savings? Seemed the same as parking your money in Guernsey, away from the tax man, is all, IMO.

Icesave was not an offshore bank, it was a British registered subsidary of the Icelandic Kaupthing bank.
No offices , only internet accounts.
They gave an unrealistic high interest rate ( 6.5 - 7.0 %) and did therefore get a
a lot of investors of which many were plain British savers.

^ too good to be true then. Were there no guarantees on the deposits? Guess not if folks are complaining.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

too good to be true then.

Tell that to the professionals who invested in Icesave and Kaupthing..
You expect Joe Public to have a better chance of grasping what is unrealistic high
interest?

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Were there no guarantees on the deposits? Guess not if folks are complaining.

As a new bank, they got a grace period of 5 years (if I remember correct) to up
their guarantee to £ 50.000.
Meanwhile the British government guaranteed the difference.
Icesave's current part is around £20.000 and that is the money the Icelandic state
refuses to pay back after their takeover of Kaupthing a week ago.

^ Herd mentality and greed, Lom. British bankers and others wanted what the American guys were getting. The townsfolk followed. A fool and his money are soon parted...

There seems to be considerable confusion here. Icesave and Kaupthing Edge are two separate banks. They have nothing to do with each other than that their parent companies are both Icelandic. They are both incorporated in the UK.

There is no grace period for new banks. They're either a full member or what's know as a 'passport' member (or not a member at all).

Kaupthing Edge was a full member of the FSCS scheme whose guarantee amount was raised from £35,000 to £50,000 last week. They went into default last week and the UK Treasury transferred their retail accounts to ING Direct, a Dutch bank. They are operating (more or less) normally.

Icesave is a member of the passport scheme where approximately the first £16K is covered by the Icelandic Goverment and the rest (~£34K) is covered by the FSCS. When they went into default the Icelandic Prime Minister said that Iceland was going to renege on the passport agreement for UK and Dutch customers but that Icelandic customers alone would be covered. That's when the UK Treasury froze ALL Icelandic assets in the UK.

So, yes - there were deposit guarantee schemes. The problem is that the Head of State in Iceland wanted to wriggle and squirm out of them.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

^ Herd mentality and greed, Lom. British bankers and others wanted what the American guys were getting. The townsfolk followed. A fool and his money are soon parted...

Blimey - is it Platitude Week in Canada this week?

Originally Posted by lysander

There seems to be considerable confusion here. Icesave and Kaupthing Edge are two separate banks.

Sorry, I got them mixed up.
Icesave is the subsidiary of Landsbankki

Oh, OK. Thanks, Lys. I know the deposit guarantee is £50K, didn't know the breakdown or the other insurer. What about the other Ice banks that crashed? It seems Iceland doesn't have the $ to pay and has thus asked for IMF help.

Originally Posted by Jet Gorgon

Oh, OK. Thanks, Lys. I know the deposit guarantee is £50K, didn't know the breakdown or the other insurer. What about the other Ice banks that crashed? It seems Iceland doesn't have the $ to pay and has thus asked for IMF help.

The only Ice banks that are incorporated in the UK are Icesave and Kaupthing Edge. Kaupthing Singer & Friedlander (Kaupthing bought out the UK bank Singer & Friedlander) is an offshore bank with no guarantees. Glitnir is the 3rd largest Iceland bank which went into default last week but has no UK connections.

Originally Posted by Milkman

ACORN seems to be a dodgy group. There is a headline today about voter fraud in Missouri. Registering duplicates. SS numbers, and addresses that don't even exist.

Heres another thing to consider with the fraudulent registered voter names, once they are in the system they can be used to 'sign' petitions to get measures on the ballot. A measure is legislation the people directly vote yay or nay on rather than having legislative representatives (ie, congressmen) vote on it. The names can also be used to make political contributions to candidates or political action groups. They can launder money into campaigns. It's more than using the name to vote. The names are likely to be used to sign petitions and make campaign contributions.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by attaboy

^I get a kick out of using "inferring" and "implying" in the same sentence. It's almost melodic. But, hey, why put the words in my mouth about this being genetic? You posted "nature vs nurture". Why did you go with genetic? What about nurture? He learned from his family. He was influenced by his surroundings. Kids imitate their parents. Parents are role models. There are therapists who even suggest that some mental illnesses are contagious.

Christ, bit of a literalist when you want to be aren't you. Don't get caught up in the words, atta. I was taking the piss out of your guilt-by-association character assassination attempt. Is Dubbya a liar because his daddy flubbed on taxes and was the head of one of the most shady and subversive organisations going? Is McCain a racist because he served in the senate and on boards with noted segregationist and racist Strom Thurman? I think that, as a Republican, the answers to those would be different wouldn't it.

This coming from the pedantic prince. Known to

There were only six votes. The video is worthy of another poll

^I note that you didn't answer the questions.

You seem to have resigned yourself to Obama winning this election and are now conducting a concerted smear campaign, atta.

McCain? His legislative track record shows him to be a liberal Republican.

the most shady and subversive organisations

What you talking about, Willis?

Originally Posted by attaboy

McCain? His legislative track record shows him to be a liberal Republican.

Doesn't matter what his voting record shows. Using the same standard that has been applied to Obama he's a racist and dishonest due to his assocation with others like Strom Thurman and the Keating Five scandal.

the most shady and subversive organisations

What you talking about, Willis?

The CIA, atta.

You introduced nature vs nurture of a young boy growing up. I said, given your parameters, it was more likely he would learn bullshitting and far left leaning traits from his parents than it being likely he would inherit the same traits via his genes. I don't see how a child being influence during his developing years by his family and their friends is the same as an adult conducting legislation.

Oh so McCain wasn't influenced one way or the other by his family and friends then.

The point is, atta, if you're going to hang Obama on his association with certain other people then, surely, you'd have to apply the same rigourous and exacting examination to McCain.

Bob Bullock, Bush's mentor, was a well known and influential Texas Democrat politician.

Smear? You guys said it was ludicrous to imply Obama associated with radicals. Because you don't have the intellectual curiosity or political inclination to do so I've pointed out that he clearly has.

If you want a smear check out Biden. His wife, and I hesitate to say this because it is a tragedy, but then again after what Biden said things need to be clarified, his wife pulled out into traffic getting herself and her daughter killed. Biden accuses the truck driver, who hit her car, of killing his wife and daughter and he says the man was drunk. The police say there is no evidence the man had been drinking. Biden says this about the poor guy (who must live with the knowledge that his truck struck and killed a woman and her daughter) in front of audiences. There is a man and his reputation involved and there is the man's family. What possess Biden to smear the man like that? It goes beyond the average bullshitter who makes things up on the spot. Does he even recognize that the people around him actually exist? Does Biden imagine himself as the star of the Truman Show. What is going on with Biden that he would lie like that? I guess I'm indicating that Biden lacks a conscious; a liar with no conscious.

You're a lawyer , Ant. Does the family have any recourse against Biden for boldly lying about their dead father? I'm sure it causes them considerable pain.

Smear? You guys said it was ludicrous to imply Obama associated with radicals. Because you don't have the intellectual curiosity or political inclination to do so I've pointed out that he clearly has.

I said nothing of the sort, I said it's completely pointless and just illustrates that you've little of substance; just hollow rhetoric and continued guilt-by-association attacks on a mans character. Pretty much the same reasons McCain's falling in the polls.

I went to Primary school with this kid, we were pretty good friends. Even ate lunch together. As we grew up we weren't as close anymore, drifted apart, although we still stayed in contact. Hadn't heard from him for a few years and then one day I was reading the newspaper and saw his picture. He'd been convicted of an aggravated home-invasion burglary where one of the occupants had been seriously hurt. Needless to say he (my friend) was sentenced to quite a lengthy spell in prison. After this point I contacted his mother to ask if there was anything I could do to help the family.

Now applying your 'rationale' to that anecdote I should be serving a prison sentence alongside him by dint of my previous associations with him or it should, at the very least, be an indictment on my character and materially affect my ability to do certain jobs or hold certain positions of responsibility.

What possess Biden to smear the man like that?

Well gee, I'm gonna hazard a guess here - go out on a limb - but, the guys wife and daughter are dead, he could've, might've possibly, been, oh I dunno... a bit upset? Maybe?

Your a good example of everything that's wrong with the American electorate, atta. Policy's very much secondary to sophmoric considerations and nonsense, even if that be using a tradegy like the one you outlined to make an attack on another person.

Here ya go, Ant. Biden is the one using the tragedy. He embellished it and you defend him. What a sad piece of peripheral cheerleading you do from the sidelines.

Originally Posted by attaboy

Since we're talking about whoppers here's the entire article about Joe's story. It's a terrible story all around. Terrible that he lost his wife and child. Terrible that the other driver carried the thought with him for the rest of his life. Why would Biden lie like this? He's been caught at it before so he knows what the consequences are. What is wrong with this guy?

I couldn't publicly before audiences, so that it is reported worldwide, dump my pain on Mr Dunn by calling him a drunk driver. It's been 35 years since the accident. Biden is still using the story. Biden has a new wife and a new life. Does he bother to think how this makes his wife feel? I can't imagine reminding her of his previous marriage and it's tragic end.

Biden's not simply a politician who fudges the figures or doesn't fully disclose the story. He smeared another man's name and caused his family great pain as the lie Biden told was spread via The New York Times, National Public Radio and The Economist. Those news outlets aren't the National Enquirer, though the television show Inside Edition is close. This guy's family has to live with the shame created by Biden's lie about their father. How are they supposed to explain to the world that Biden's story isn't true?



1972 crash still haunts driver's family

No DUI in crash that killed Biden's 1st wife, but he's implied otherwise

Since his vice presidential nomination, Joe Biden's 2007 statement that a "guy who allegedly ... drank his lunch" and drove the truck that struck and killed his first wife and daughter has gained national media traction.

Alcohol didn't play a role in the 1972 crash, investigators found. But as recently as last week, the syndicated TV show Inside Edition aired a clip from 2001 of Biden describing the accident to an audienceat the University of Delaware and saying the truck driver "stopped to drink instead of drive."

The senator's statements don't jibe with news and law enforcement reports from the time, which cleared driver Curtis C. Dunn, who died in 1999, of wrongdoing.

"To see it coming from [Biden's] mouth, I just burst into tears," Dunn's daughter, Glasgow resident Pamela Hamill, 44, said Wednesday. "My dad was always there for us. Now we feel like we should be there for him because he's not here to defend himself."

Biden spokesman David Wade said Wednesday that the senator "fully accepts the Dunn family's word that these rumors were false."

It's unclear who first suggested alcohol was a factor in the crash, but since Barack Obama tapped Biden to be his running mate on Aug. 23, The New York Times, National Public Radio and The Economist have run stories that characterized Dunn as a drunken driver.

"The rumor about alcohol being involved by either party, especially the truck driver, is incorrect," said Jerome O. Herlihy, a Delaware Superior Court judge who was chief deputy attorney general and worked with crash investigators in 1972.

"If it were some part of a cause of the accident, there would have been a charge, simply because if you're driving under the influence and kill someone in the process -- whether it's the wife of a U.S. senator or anybody else -- there's going to be a charge," he said.

Herlihy said investigators discussed several possible causes for the crash, including that Biden's first wife, Neilia, turned her head and didn't see the oncoming truck as she exited the intersection of Limestone and Valley roads on Dec. 18, 1972.

Neither Biden's book nor his campaign Web site directly addresses the alcohol issue, but the senator has done so publicly on at least two occasions.

The New York Times reported the 2007 crowd at the University of Iowa grew silent as Biden gave his version of what happened that day.

"Let me tell you a little story," The newspaper quoted Biden as saying. "I got elected when I was 29, and I got elected November the 7th. And on Dec. 18 of that year, my wife and three kids were Christmas shopping for a Christmas tree. A tractor-trailer, a guy who allegedly -- and I never pursued it -- drank his lunch instead of eating his lunch, broadsided my family and killed my wife instantly, and killed my daughter instantly, and hospitalized my two sons, with what were thought to be at the time permanent, fundamental injuries."

Biden told a similar story when addressing an audience at the Bob Carpenter Center at the University of Delaware a few days after the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

"It was an errant driver who stopped to drink instead of drive and hit a tractor-trailer, hit my children and my wife and killed them," Biden said, according to a transcript archived on his Senate Web site.

Even before Obama asked Biden to join his campaign, political observers said the senator's gaffes could be a liability in a contest where every word will be scrutinized. Biden's first presidential campaign 20 years ago was undone by charges he plagiarized parts of a speech by British Labor Party leader Neil Kinnock.

Asked about Biden's accounts of the accident, Wade warned against writing anything that would "infer, paraphrase, or be anything less than precise on such a personal and tragic subject."

After the 1972 accident, Biden never sought any records from the time of the crash, nor did he seek any further investigation, Wade said.

"In remarks he made at the University of Iowa he said 'allegedly -- and I never pursued it.' " Wade wrote in an e-mail. "Nor did he encourage reporting on it then or at any other time. He has never called it or thought of it as anything other than an 'accident.' His focus was his grief over the loss of his wife and daughter and his concern for the recovery of his sons."

News reports from 1972 said Neilia Hunter Biden pulled away from a stop sign at Limestone and Valley roads about 2:30 p.m. when the tractor-trailer driven by Dunn, which was coming down a hill on Limestone Road, hit the side of her station wagon. Dunn freed himself from the truck and was the first to reach the Biden car, according to a report by the The Evening Journal, a precursor to The News Journal.

Neilia Biden and 13-month-old daughter Naomi, whom the family called Amy, were declared dead at a hospital. Son Beau, now Delaware's attorney general, broke his leg, and son Hunter suffered head injuries. Joe Biden, who had been elected to his first term in the Senate just a month before, took his oath of office at the boys' bedside.

Two days after the crash, Herlihy, a neighbor of the Bidens in the late 1960s who still considers the senator "a friend," told the paper that there was no evidence that Dunn "was speeding, drinking or driving a truck with faulty brakes." No criminal charges related to the crash were ever filed against Dunn, who lived in North East, Md.

Hamill, one of seven children, was 8 years old at the time of the accident. She remembers her father watching news reports of the crash while wearing a sling to support a shoulder injury he suffered in the accident.

She said Dunn was always "solemn" around the Christmas holidays. Years later, when her brother planned to get married on Dec. 18, Dunn told the family "I don't celebrate on that day," Hamill said.

"We're not trying to equate Sen. Biden's loss to my father's heartache," Hamill said. "But we wanted it to be known that our father never forgot that tragic day."

Hamill said it wasn't until the Inside Edition report that she became aware that the Delaware senator had said alcohol played a role in the accident. Dunn did not consume any alcohol the day of the crash, Hamill said.

She said she immediately called Biden's office after being contacted by Inside Edition and is waiting for the senator's response.

"The family feels these statements are both hurtful and untrue and we didn't know where they originated from," Hamill said.

As Hamill watched a recording of the Inside Edition report Wednesday, she gasped when the clip of Biden's comments from Iowa came on screen.

After reading a News Journal account of Biden's 2001 speech at UD, Hamill sent Biden a letter on behalf of her father. The newspaper story included Biden's description of getting the call that his wife and daughter had died, but not his comments about Dunn.

Hamill said her note to the senator described how Dunn was affected by the accident.

Printed on the senator's letter head and dated Oct. 11, 2001, the response from Biden reads:

"I apologize for taking so long to acknowledge your thoughtful and heartfelt note," Biden wrote. "All that I can say is I am sorry for all of us and please know that neither I nor my sons feel any animosity whatsoever."


http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/p...NTPAGECAROUSEL