Waterboarding , Do You Think It Is Torture?

**chitown** · 13-03-2008, 04:54 PM

^Your still alive????

You must have a permanent transfusion going on or you would have been drained long ago........with that bleeding heart that you have.

**raycarey** · 13-03-2008, 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by chitown

^Your still alive????

as hard as it might be for you to believe (and putting aside all your sycophantic threads) there are things outside of TD.

**chinthee** · 13-03-2008, 05:16 PM

^Welcome back Ray. Good to have you back honestly. The US Issues section is just plain boring without your perspective. We need all colors of the rainbow to have fun.

**Driventowin** · 13-03-2008, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by chinthee

^Welcome back Ray. Good to have you back honestly. The US Issues section is just plain boring without your perspective. We need all colors of the rainbow to have fun.

I'll try not to take that personally....

Preaching the rainbow coalition now are ya ChinT??

**raycarey** · 13-03-2008, 05:25 PM

great.

how about addressing this then....

Originally Posted by chinthee

Seems to me we can draw a subtle distinction between shoving bamboo reeds up prisoners fingernails and the other gruesome torture techniques to which you're referring and waterboarding. Don't stretch your argument to the absurd.

Originally Posted by raycarey

the absurd? really?

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death." Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime - washingtonpost.com

**chinthee** · 13-03-2008, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by Driventowin

Originally Posted by chinthee

^Welcome back Ray. Good to have you back honestly. The US Issues section is just plain boring without your perspective. We need all colors of the rainbow to have fun.

I'll try not to take that personally....

Preaching the rainbow coalition now are ya ChinT??

This board is much more fun with Ray on it than off it. I mean, how can you have a US Issues section without a self-hating, socialist American as a contributor?

**raycarey** · 13-03-2008, 05:35 PM

chinthee
so i guess you're not going to address the issue then? not simply your ignorance of the facts (which is plainly illustrated above), but rather how the US is using the very same torture methods that they prosecuted the Japanese for after WW2.

man up chinthee.

i'll be sure to check back later for your response.

**chinthee** · 13-03-2008, 05:39 PM

Ray, go back and re-read the thread. I acknowledged early on, and reaffirmed later, that I admitted it was torture, but was 'acceptable torture' to me.

Unlike other bleeding hearts, I do think this type of 'torture' is needed in some cases. Now, which issue didn't I address?

**raycarey** · 13-03-2008, 05:54 PM

^is this an alzheimer's thing? christ.

Originally Posted by raycarey

how the US is using the very same torture methods that they prosecuted the Japanese for after WW2.

you know, "absurd" stuff like that.

**chinthee** · 13-03-2008, 05:58 PM

^Ray, who cares about your sniveling little points? You haven't provided proof that Japan solely used waterboarding as a torture method nor that they were prosecuted only for waterboarding.

As I recall from stories my father told me, who served in Guam, and elsewhere in the Pacific Theatre, they found lots of tortured dead soldiers, and the techniques he described were a bit worse than waterboarding.

Come back and prove that Japan was prosecuted solely for waterboarding as a torture technique and I'll concede the point, fair enough?

**raycarey** · 13-03-2008, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by chinthee

You haven't provided proof that Japan solely used waterboarding as a torture method nor that they were prosecuted only for waterboarding.

.....

**Driventowin** · 13-03-2008, 06:05 PM

Originally Posted by Chinthee

socialist American

Is that socialist or anti-socialist??

Anyway, the point is like Texpat says

A total of 3 to date
and 5 total minutes

To have saved how many potential lives?? Highly worth the risk IMO..

I can't believe the choreography with Panda and RC though it's really something to envy.. The Jackson's should do so well..

**chinthee** · 13-03-2008, 06:07 PM

^Well, it's pretty easy to avoid having the same IP address show up on two different user names actually. Do you really think Panda is RC? I haven't paid close enough attention to Panda's comments.

**Driventowin** · 13-03-2008, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by raycarey

Originally Posted by chinthee

You haven't provided proof that Japan solely used waterboarding as a torture method nor that they were prosecuted only for waterboarding.

.....

Sure it is because it places you in a position to prove your contentions.. Rather than just quoting a given anonymous source with only vague and contentious claims..

**Driventowin** · 13-03-2008, 06:13 PM

Originally Posted by chinthee

^Well, it's pretty easy to avoid having the same IP address show up on two different user names actually. Do you really think Panda is RC? I haven't paid close enough attention to Panda's comments.

Very similar style and rhetoric, then one goes and the other mysteriously shows up when comments and inquiries are made. It's just highly suspicious at the very least..

Don't have to go back very far Chint.. Just go back 2 pages and compare..Then look at the way RC dropped off and suddenly Panda took over then now RC is here again like magic just after he was again mentioned last night. He could have been just lurking but as I said amazing choreography...

**raycarey** · 13-03-2008, 06:46 PM

Originally Posted by Driventowin

A total of 3 to date and 5 total minutes

and as i pointed out many times (and was sheepishly put aside by the proponents of torture) if there is nothing untoward about the act of water boarding, why the need to point out that it happened 'only' 3 times?

Originally Posted by Driventowin

Sure it is because it places you in a position to prove your contentions.. Rather than just quoting a given anonymous source with only vague and contentious claims..

what the fcuk are you on about? since you can post, it's clear you can write, but can you read? if so go back to post #455.

there's nothing "anonymous or vague" about it....or don't you believe the testimony of lieutenant nielson?

on second thought, since you don't strike me as all that bright and might not be able to 'track down' post 455, i'll repost the quote and link below...

After World War II, we convicted several Japanese soldiers for waterboarding American and Allied prisoners of war. At the trial of his captors, then-Lt. Chase J. Nielsen, one of the 1942 Army Air Forces officers who flew in the Doolittle Raid and was captured by the Japanese, testified: "I was given several types of torture. . . . I was given what they call the water cure." He was asked what he felt when the Japanese soldiers poured the water. "Well, I felt more or less like I was drowning," he replied, "just gasping between life and death."
Nielsen's experience was not unique. Nor was the prosecution of his captors. After Japan surrendered, the United States organized and participated in the International Military Tribunal for the Far East, generally called the Tokyo War Crimes Trials. Leading members of Japan's military and government elite were charged, among their many other crimes, with torturing Allied military personnel and civilians. The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

Waterboarding Used to Be a Crime - washingtonpost.com

so chinthee, man up and address the issue. driventowin, you can just run along.

**chinthee** · 13-03-2008, 06:47 PM

^Ray, you've piqued my interest. I'll do some proper research on this issue and get back to you.

**raycarey** · 13-03-2008, 06:49 PM

i won't hold my breath.

**chinthee** · 13-03-2008, 06:53 PM

^No pun intended I presume. I seriously doubt that I'll find anyone was prosecuted solely for water torture, but rather for a slew of offenses, including that one. I'll go out on a limb and state that I won't find any one case of conviction for torture based solely on 'water torture.' We'll see, maybe I'll be eating crow. Maybe you will.

**chinthee** · 13-03-2008, 07:04 PM

Here's a quick update after 5 minute google. More coming.

Ray, in the Washington Post article, upon which you rely and cite as your authority, the basis of the contention are the 28 Japanese Class A War ciminal suspects prosecuted under the Tokyo War Crimes Trial. The Indictment contained a number of counts, and the only relevant count to our discussion is Count 54,

Count 54: "ordered, authorized, and permitted" inhumane treatment of Prisoners of War (POWs) and others.

Five of the defendants were convicted on that count. Now, we will determine if any of those five were convicted solely or largely on the basis of water boarding.

http://www.cnd.org/mirror/nanjing/NMTT.html

At the same time, the Washington Post reporter who filed that report appears to be a credible voice, a judge at the US Court of Int'l Trade and he says:

The principal proof upon which their torture convictions were based was conduct that we would now call waterboarding.

We'll see....

**chinthee** · 13-03-2008, 07:23 PM

Testimony (unattributed) from a War Crimes Tribunal participant

waterboarding was not among the various charges. There were later trials in Tokyo; the ones in Guam were conducted hurriedly in order to establish some precedents. There were 33 defendents charged with a variety of crimes. All but one were convicted. Only a few - three if I remember correctly - were hanged. Another committed hari kiri in his cell. The rest got prison terms. The charges included several murders, beatings, abuse of prioners, desecration of bodies, and cannibalism. Only the top officers were hanged.

So I doubt seriously that any were later hanged "just" for waterboarding. This comports with the proven Indictment charges, which were more general.

RC is trying to elevate waterboarding to be the actual chargable and convictable offense upon which the War Crimes Tribunal made its convictions. Nonsense.

Ok, I'm not going to spend my whole evening on this silly arcane issue. It appears that a number of lower level officers were convicted of Class B offenses under these charges, and that some of the proof relied upon to make the convictions in some cases may have been waterboarding.

In other words, nobody was convicted for 'waterboarding' per se, and in fact any and all of them were convicted for abuse of prisoners and others. In some cases, the proof offered up by the prosecution in order to convict was proof of waterboarding, among other things.

So, my conclusion is that there exists no single conviction from the Tokyo War trials on the offense of waterboarding itself. Its occurance was offered up as proof along with with evidence. Finally, and more importantly, whatever burdens of proof, and allowable evidence which were relevant 60 years ago in war trials may or may not be so today. Laws change. Fora change.

Ray, you're blowing mostly hot air as usual. Prove me wrong .......

*edited the word dickwad out.

**raycarey** · 13-03-2008, 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by chinthee

Prove me wrong

someone asks you to man up, and this is the best you can come up with?
you haven't refuted anything in post #466. and now i need to prove you wrong? taking classes at the "boon mee school of infantile debate techniques", are you?

you can attempt to parse words and frame the parameters of this sub issue (only, solely), but the fact remains that the US prosecuted the japanese for the very same acts of water torture the white house sanctions today...and you know it.
dickwad.

**chinthee** · 13-03-2008, 09:25 PM

^Ray, you have returned particularly vile and hateful haven't you. What happened, did you miss one of your unemployment cheques? Did you try calling the Unemployment Division first before getting into a hissy fit?

Ray, I've presented the best world class 15 minutes of research I could gather to refute your flimsy claim based on one article in the Washington Post, and did it well.

The Burden of persuasion is on you, my little new age hippie, to provide proof that the Japanese were prosecuted based on water torture. You haven't done that.

You haven't met even the most basic standards of meeting any burden of persuasion, based on your original flimsy assertion.

**raycarey** · 13-03-2008, 09:41 PM

lame, lame, lame.

and what's this unemployment nonsense?
yawn.

**Driventowin** · 13-03-2008, 09:46 PM

Ok back now from feeding, showering and putting the boys to bed.. Now what new things have transpired in my absence...Oh yes, more RC Blues tunes I see....

Originally Posted by Chinthee

^Ray, you have returned particularly vile and hateful haven't you. What happened, did you miss one of your unemployment cheques? Did you try calling the Unemployment Division first before getting into a hissy fit?

Yes he has and in spite of his very rude and childish attempt at dismissing me I'll put my intellect up against yours anytime RC..

Maybe it's a vane attempt at trying to distance himself from other Blues artists similar musical stylings or something....For the purposes of deception..

Chinthee is 100% correct in his assessment, you haven't proven a thing, all you have is hollow, argumentative speculation about the charges leveled against the Japanese (60 years ago I might add) with no proof what so ever of the substance of those charges and the subsequent evidence presented at their trial..

You brought the example to the table it's up to you to bring the proof. Chinthee went even a step further and gave you the benefit of the doubt to seek out your contention and came up with some vague mention of that possibly being one element of the evidence presented but not the exclusive reasoning behind the actual convictions..

Return volley...

*edited the word dickwad out.

especially funny..

*edited for the purposes of adding the aforementioned dickwad reference...

Thread: Waterboarding , Do You Think It Is Torture?

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