Waterboarding , Do You Think It Is Torture?

**chinthee** · 30-12-2007, 06:32 PM

^You're right Stroller, but religion is an integral part of the problem.

**Norton** · 30-12-2007, 07:06 PM

Originally Posted by stroller

Thailand annexed the region, do you think that might have something to do with it?

Well kind of. In the 1909 Anglo/Siamese Treaty, the British agreed to give control of Narathiwat, Pattani, Songhkla, Satun and Yala to Thailand in exchange for Thailand relinquishing its claims to sovereignty over Kedah, Kelantan, Perlis and Terengganu to the British.

Since the treaty Pattani vis-a-vis the Pattani Separatest Movement has refused to accept Thai rule and to this day is a major factor in the unrest in the south. Contributing to this is the history of Thai government's disenfranchisement of the southern provinces. Nearly all the provinces in peninsular Thailand have significant Muslim populations without having the "insurgency" problem. Even though to some degree religious motivations are at play, it is not a Muslim vs Buddhist issue but rather a separatist/sovereignty one that has been going on since 1909.

**Driventowin** · 31-12-2007, 11:42 AM

Originally Posted by stroller

Originally Posted by chitown

they aren't blowing things up and killing people like the Mussies are

One could easily find "atheism" or "Christianity" as a common denominator for terrorism or violent conflict, or the basis for persecution of others. In very recent history the focus of attention has shifted to "Islam".

As you well know, it is not "Muslims" as such, but rather certain groups with an Islamist ideology which are responsible for "blowing things up". ...and, one might add, they are not responsible for all things blown up, not even the vast majority.

Agreed...Oddly enough...

**Boon Mee** · 28-01-2008, 06:09 AM

I wonder if these folks do H2O boarding too?

Gulag tourists line up for 'KGB beatings' | The Daily Telegraph

**Zavier38** · 28-01-2008, 08:06 AM

IMHO with Iraqis "a quiet word" doesn't work. They've lived in a country where they've been brought up to understand that you do what the man with the biggest gun tells you.
I spent several months there in 1990 and met people who saw nothing wrong with holding a loaded Berretta against someone's head for the fun of seeing them squirm or getting them to dig a 5 foot deep hole for six hours and having them kneel in it whilst levelling an AK47. Queensberry rules don't work there.
Waterboarding is a humane way of getting answers. Whether they're truthful answers is anyone's guess, as the Iraqis know that we're a soft bunch who don't genaerally go around randomly wasting people who won't do as we say, unlike the former regime and the present Shia / Sunni militias.

**Boon Mee** · 29-01-2008, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by Zavier38

IMHO with Iraqis "a quiet word" doesn't work. They've lived in a country where they've been brought up to understand that you do what the man with the biggest gun tells you.
I spent several months there in 1990 and met people who saw nothing wrong with holding a loaded Berretta against someone's head for the fun of seeing them squirm or getting them to dig a 5 foot deep hole for six hours and having them kneel in it whilst levelling an AK47. Queensberry rules don't work there.
Waterboarding is a humane way of getting answers. Whether they're truthful answers is anyone's guess, as the Iraqis know that we're a soft bunch who don't genaerally go around randomly wasting people who won't do as we say, unlike the former regime and the present Shia / Sunni militias.

And it leaves no scars or lasting effects either.

**BobbyTits** · 29-01-2008, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Originally Posted by Zavier38

IMHO with Iraqis "a quiet word" doesn't work. They've lived in a country where they've been brought up to understand that you do what the man with the biggest gun tells you.
I spent several months there in 1990 and met people who saw nothing wrong with holding a loaded Berretta against someone's head for the fun of seeing them squirm or getting them to dig a 5 foot deep hole for six hours and having them kneel in it whilst levelling an AK47. Queensberry rules don't work there.
Waterboarding is a humane way of getting answers. Whether they're truthful answers is anyone's guess, as the Iraqis know that we're a soft bunch who don't genaerally go around randomly wasting people who won't do as we say, unlike the former regime and the present Shia / Sunni militias.

And it leaves no scars or lasting effects either.

Waterboading is like taking these scum to Pattaya Park for a day of fun and sun.

Now back in the good old days there was real non politically correct methods of torture like the Rat Box.

**AntRobertson** · 29-01-2008, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by Zavier38

Waterboarding is a humane way of getting answers.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

And it leaves no scars or lasting effects either.

Originally Posted by BobbyTits

Waterboading is like taking these scum to Pattaya Park for a day of fun and sun.

So of you three who has experienced the most water-boarding sessions?

**raycarey** · 29-01-2008, 10:31 AM

or would be willing to at the next TD meet up?

c'mon tough guys....don't forget, it's "humane", "leaves no scars or lasting effects" or like going to "pattaya park for a day of fun and sun"

let us know when you'd like to begin!

**Driventowin** · 29-01-2008, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Zavier38

IMHO with Iraqis "a quiet word" doesn't work. They've lived in a country where they've been brought up to understand that you do what the man with the biggest gun tells you.
I spent several months there in 1990 and met people who saw nothing wrong with holding a loaded Berretta against someone's head for the fun of seeing them squirm or getting them to dig a 5 foot deep hole for six hours and having them kneel in it whilst levelling an AK47. Queensberry rules don't work there.
Waterboarding is a humane way of getting answers. Whether they're truthful answers is anyone's guess, as the Iraqis know that we're a soft bunch who don't genaerally go around randomly wasting people who won't do as we say, unlike the former regime and the present Shia / Sunni militias.

While agree with your premise about "the guy with the bigger guns" that applies to the entire region not just Iraq. But why are you referencing Iraqi's? That is not the OP. This is a deviation from the original topic and is a completely different point of view and different goals..

I would not condone water boarding against Iraqi's they have not institute an attack directly against us and have not been shown to be targeting ordinary American citizens outside of Iraq..

**Mr Earl** · 29-01-2008, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

So of you three who has experienced the most water-boarding sessions?

Peewee have your eaten durian?

**Mr Earl** · 29-01-2008, 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by raycarey

or would be willing to at the next TD meet up?

c'mon tough guys....don't forget, it's "humane", "leaves no scars or lasting effects" or like going to "pattaya park for a day of fun and sun"

let us know when you'd like to begin!

Why not, I'm game if you are Ray. I'll even go first.

**raycarey** · 29-01-2008, 06:17 PM

i believe it to be torture....and as i'm not a masochist i wouldn't subject myself to it. those who see it as a day of "fun and sun" or "humane" should not have these concerns.

and earl, why should my participation influence your decision? are you getting obsessed with me again? as i find your stalking tendencies to be very tedious, i hope not.

btw, shouldn't you be in jail with the other delinquents?

**Boon Mee** · 29-01-2008, 06:21 PM

Originally Posted by raycarey

or would be willing to at the next TD meet up?

c'mon tough guys....don't forget, it's "humane", "leaves no scars or lasting effects" or like going to "pattaya park for a day of fun and sun"

let us know when you'd like to begin!

Since I'm not a terrorist witholding information needed to prevent more death, it's a non-argument if us proponents of H2O-boarding should experience it. We know it works, leaves no scars and is 'humane' in that the subject gives up information and is allowed to live...

**Texpat** · 30-01-2008, 11:20 PM

By David Stout
Jan 30, 2008
International Herald Tribune

WASHINGTON: Attorney General Michael Mukasey said that the harsh CIA interrogation technique known as waterboarding was not clearly illegal and suggested that it could be used against terrorism suspects once again if requested by the White House.

Mukasey's statement came in a letter delivered Tuesday night to the Senate Judiciary Committee, which has scheduled for Wednesday its first oversight hearing for the new attorney general. The conclusions of the letter are likely to be a focus of severe questioning by Senate Democrats who have described waterboarding, which creates the sensation of drowning, as torture.

"If this were an easy question, I would not be reluctant to offer my views," Mukasey wrote to Senator Patrick Leahy, Democrat of Vermont, who heads the committee.

"But with respect, I believe it is not an easy question," he said. "There are some circumstances where current law would appear clearly to prohibit the use of waterboarding. Other circumstances would present a far closer question."
The letter did not define any of the circumstances.

Leahy said in a statement late Tuesday night that the letter "echoes what other administration officials have said about the use of waterboarding" but that it did not "answer the critical questions we have been asking about its legality." He said that Mukasey "knows that this will not end the matter" and that he can expect "to be asked serious questions at the hearing tomorrow."

The Bush administration has confirmed that the CIA used waterboarding against a small number of Al Qaeda figures captured after the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. The administration has said waterboarding was stopped several years ago following protests over the practice, in which suspects are placed on a flat surface, cloth or cellophane is put over their faces, and water is then poured over them.

The question of whether waterboarding amounts to torture nearly derailed Mukasey's nomination for attorney general. At his Senate confirmation hearings in October, he refused to say whether he considered the technique to be torture or to be otherwise illegal. He said he needed to withhold judgment until he had received classified briefings on the subject if confirmed.

Several Democratic senators said then that his refusal to define waterboarding as torture had led them to oppose confirmation. He was confirmed on a vote of 53 to 40, and the 13-vote margin was the narrowest for a nominee to the post in more than 50 years.

In his letter Tuesday to Leahy, Mukasey said that since arriving at the Justice Department in early November, he had "conducted a thorough and careful review of the department's legal analysis concerning the techniques that are currently authorized for use in the Central Intelligence Agency's program for interrogating high-level Al Qaeda terrorists."

He said that only "a limited set of methods is currently authorized for use in that program" and added: "I have been authorized to disclose publicly that waterboarding is not among those methods. Accordingly, waterboarding is not, and may not, be used in the current program.

"I understand that you and some other members of the committee may feel that I should go further in my review and answer questions concerning the legality of waterboarding under current law," he said.

"But I do not think it would be responsible for me, as attorney general, to provide an answer." He added, "I do not believe that it is advisable to address difficult legal questions, about which reasonable minds can and do differ, in the absence of concrete facts and circumstances."

He suggested that waterboarding might be reintroduced under the "defined process by which any new method is proposed for authorization" in the CIA's interrogation program.

"That process would begin with the CIA director's determination that the addition of the technique was required for the program," he continued. "Then the attorney general would have to determine that the use of the technique is lawful under the particular conditions and circumstances proposed. Finally the president would have to approve of the use of the technique."

Mukasey's letter appeared to be an effort to deflect some of the harsher questions he may be asked on Wednesday, in his first public testimony on Capitol Hill since his confirmation battle last fall.

"I will answer those questions to the best of my ability, within the limits that I have described," he said. "I recognize that those limits may make my task today more difficult for me personally. My job as attorney general is to do what I believe the law requires and what is best for the country, not what makes my life easier."

Leahy and the nine other Democratic members of the Judiciary Committee wrote to Mukasey last week to insist again that he answer the question of whether waterboarding was torture. The attorney general suggested in comments to reporters at a news conference last Friday that he might never feel compelled to answer the question, no matter how often it was asked by lawmakers and the press.

U.S. attorney general won't rule out waterboarding - International Herald Tribune

**Mr Earl** · 31-01-2008, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by raycarey

and earl, why should my participation influence your decision?

Nope that's why I offered to go first. I'm just assuming you'd probably "chicken-out"

are you getting obsessed with me again? as i find your stalking tendencies to be very tedious, i hope not.

Still having issue with that sentence structure thing I see.

btw, shouldn't you be in jail with the other delinquents?

You got that right... I escaped.

**raycarey** · 31-01-2008, 10:31 AM

^^ nice insight texpat.

why would someone cut and paste an entire article and provide no thoughts of their own on the matter?

it's this type of thoughtful analysis and opinion that makes TD such good reading.

^
nothing wrong with the structure earl. stick to your business of managing whores in patong and leave the syntactical analysis to the literate.

Originally Posted by Mr Earl

I escaped.

yet another donation?

**Texpat** · 31-01-2008, 10:44 AM

Didn't think the article needed much explaining. You know my stance on waterboarding. You just want me to post my opinion again so you can take a few shots at me since the IHT article runs counter to your prevailing gospel that waterboarding is wrong in all instances and should never be used in any circumstances.

The attorney general does not agree with you Ray Baby, why don't you call him names instead.

**raycarey** · 31-01-2008, 11:04 AM

^good boy.

keep it up.

**raycarey** · 31-01-2008, 11:09 AM

now then, it appears that mukasey would consider waterboarding to be torture if it were done to him.

“Would waterboarding be torture if it were done to you?” asked Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts, glowering at Mr. Mukasey.

“I would feel that it was,” Mr. Mukasey acknowledged

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/31/wa...ce.html?ref=us

interesting position to take for the attorney general.....apparently he thinks he is above the law.

but something we can all look forward to is that in a mere 12 months the war mongering torturers that have taken over the US govt will be swept out of office...along with their illegal and draconian measures.

**Texpat** · 31-01-2008, 11:25 AM

in a mere 12 months the war mongering torturers that have taken over the US govt will be swept out of office...along with their illegal and draconian measures.

^ Do you honestly believe that?

Do you think there is a wholesale change of heart among the 3 or 4 million government employees in the split second GWB is no longer the boss? It takes Congress two weeks to blink. It takes the Senate three months to confirm that a blink had taken place.

An embarassingly nieve assertion.

**raycarey** · 31-01-2008, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Texpat

Do you think there is a wholesale change of heart among the 3 or 4 million government employees in the split second GWB is no longer the boss?

wholesale? who supports water torture besides the torturers in the white house?

not congress, not the FBI, not the CIA, not the pentagon, not even the current front runner for the republican nomination....just the current regime at 1600 PA avenue.

shouldn't take too long at all. i expect once we get into a full campaign this summer, we'll find mccain and obama or clinton saying they'll address it as part of a first hundred days program.

Originally Posted by Texpat

An embarassingly nieve assertion.

well, at least you spelled 'an' and 'assertion' correctly.

**blackgang** · 31-01-2008, 02:35 PM

What the fuk, waterboarding has been going on for 500 years, it is just a game that macho guys play,
It was played by members of the inquisition way back when, granted it is no game for Sissy's, maybe thats the reason that Ray Baby wants it done away with, does take a man to play it.

**AntRobertson** · 31-01-2008, 02:38 PM

^ How many times have you "played" this particular "game", blackgang?

Somewhere around the number of 0 times I'd expect?

**raycarey** · 31-01-2008, 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by blackgang

It was played by members of the inquisition way back when

some of us see the merits in holding our govt to a higher standard.

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