Thread: A Serious Question

Originally Posted by Milkman

How?

Be specific.

You're going to slate me on my source, I know, but it's from Michael Moore's film - Fahrenheit 9/11

I can't give you the ins & outs of it all, as I'm not that well up on it, but if what he said in his film is true, the Arabs - Saudi Royals, etc - have a hell of a lot of money invested in the US (let's not forget all the behind the scenes deals we hear nothing of) some crazy % of the economy, or something.

I'm out of my depth in Issues, I know. I'm just saying what I saw.

I'm accustomed to a barrage of questions & demands for links for anything I post in here

Originally Posted by Ceburat

Get to the grass roots of it and dig out the problem that makes people act the way they act. Islamic people that is.

Can you please tell me what "bigot" means?

To do that we would have to burn every Quran in print today and then the shit would really fly.

Burn every Quran? Why?

Originally Posted by machangezi

Originally Posted by Ceburat

Get to the grass roots of it and dig out the problem that makes people act the way they act. Islamic people that is.

Can you please tell me what "bigot" means?

To do that we would have to burn every Quran in print today and then the shit would really fly.

Burn every Quran? Why?

Burn every Quran? Why? Because you said we need to root out at grass roots level the cause of the problems. Every Muslim, that is a Muslim, swears that they believe in and follow the Quran. They become hostile if you talk bad or treat bad their holy book. And, therein lies the problem - the Quran requires all non islamic to convert to islam or die.

You can double talk it anyway you want but if you want to solve the problem you must first change the thinking/believing of Muslims towards non believers.

For the meaning of "bigot" or any other word you don't know - try the dictionary.

Originally Posted by ceburat

Burn every Quran? Why? Because you said we need to root out at grass roots level the cause of the problems. Every Muslim, that is a Muslim, swears that they believe in and follow the Quran. They become hostile if you talk bad or treat bad their holy book...

... For the meaning of "bigot" or any other word you don't know - try the dictionary.

Look up "irony" while you're at it also please.

Originally Posted by ceburat

And, therein lies the problem - the Quran requires all non islamic to convert to islam or die.

You can double talk it anyway you want but if you want to solve the problem you must first change the thinking/believing of Muslims towards non believers.

The problem is, they wont change their thinking because its written in the Quran, its not to be questioned, its the divine right.

Btw, when was the last time you heard of anyone being asked to convert to Islam and being killed when they refused, ceburat?

Since you keep saying this, present the evidence your hate- and fearmongering is based on.

Originally Posted by stroller

Btw, when was the last time you heard of anyone being asked to convert to Islam and being killed when they refused, ceburat?

There were forced conversions. About 400 yeas ago in the current area of Abkhazia in Georgia, for example.

I believe it is true, that once a Muslim you cannot leave the religion, and/or convert to another.

People have been murdered for doing this.

Islamic extemist kill other Muslims for not following Islam more closely.

Originally Posted by stroller

Btw, when was the last time you heard of anyone being asked to convert to Islam and being killed when they refused, ceburat?

Since you keep saying this, present the evidence your hate- and fearmongering is based on.

It not hate nor is it fear mongering. It is truth and the truth hurst sometimes. if you chose to turn a blind eye to it, then maybe it will not affect you, but your descedants will suffer.

I could careless about their religions and their laws and the murder and torture as long as they did it in the comfines of their own country and left me out of it.

Stroller you are truly a completly ignorant ass hole. Take "issues" and jam them up your islamic ass hole. You are the most slimy piece of shit I have ever encountered in my life. Bye Bye.

^
Run out of arguments when challenged to show your cards?
Or some comments cut too close to the bone, perhaps?

Originally Posted by Milkman

There were forced conversions. About 400 yeas ago in the current area of Abkhazia in Georgia, for example.

Originally Posted by chitown

It not hate nor is it fear mongering. It is truth and the truth hurst sometimes. if you chose to turn a blind eye to it, then maybe it will not affect you, but your descedants will suffer.

It seems nobody can present an up-to-date example of anyone who's been killed when they refused to convert.
Are the Muslims not following the Koran, or could it be the Koran has been misrepresented here?

Son killed 'for not changing to Islam'


By Catriona Davies
Last Updated: 12:55am GMT 05/01/2006




A mother described yesterday hearing her son shot dead after he refused to convert to Islam.
Ruth Marriott told an inquest into her son's death that she heard gunshots on the day Adrian was shot five times in the head a few weeks before his 21st birthday.
Mr Marriott, an accountancy student and gang member, was killed in a park near his home in Brixton, south London, in June 2004.
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Three members of a rival gang, known as the Muslim Boys, were cleared in September last year of conspiracy to murder Mr Marriott after the prosecution offered no evidence at the Old Bailey.
His mother told the inquest at Southwark Coroners' Court yesterday: "We heard the shooting. We heard gun fire.
"The thought did strike me that Adrian could be involved, but it was a fleeting thought. Then we heard from police the following evening what had happened.
"Adrian was told on the Sunday prior to his death that he would be killed if he did not become a Muslim by the Wednesday, which was the day he died."
Asked by the coroner, John Sampson, whether her son had taken the threat seriously, Mrs Marriott said: "I do not think he did."
She said she had last seen him on the afternoon he was killed.
"He was happy. He was pestering me to order something for him out of my catalogue," she said. "Adrian was very much a family man."
The coroner recorded a verdict of unlawful killing.
Det Sgt John Stafford, who led the murder investigation, told the inquest that he was still searching for evidence to convict Mr Marriott's killers.
He said: "It does indeed remain a live matter. We are still keen to talk to witnesses."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main...05/nshot05.xml

Apostasy in Islam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Apostasy in Islam (Arabic: ارتداد, irtidād or ridda) is commonly defined as the rejection of Islam in word or deed by a person who has been a Muslim.
All five major schools of Islamic jurisprudence agree that a sane male apostate must be executed.[1] A female apostate may be put to death, according to some schools, or imprisoned, according to others. The Islamic laws governing apostasy are derived from the traditions (ahadith). According to Wael Hallaq nothing of the apostasy law are derived from the Qur'an, [2] although the jurist Al-Shafi'i interpreted the Quranic verse [Qur'an 2:217] as providing the main evidence for apostasy being a capital crime in Islam.[3]
Some contemporary Shi'a jurists, scholars, writers and Islamic sects have argued or issued fatwas that either the changing of religion is not punishable or is only punishable under restricted circumstances, but these minority opinions have not found broad acceptance among Islamic scholars

Apostasy in the recent past

The greatest threat to apostates in the Muslim world derives from individuals who take punishment into their own hands, because they know they will not be held accountable by the authorities. An example among many is the case of a Bangladeshi Murtad Fitri Christian evangelist who was stabbed while returning home from a film version of the Gospel of Luke.[21] Bangladesh does not have a law against apostasy, but the Imams in the mosques encourage the killing of all non-Muslims; so, someone was incited to kill the man. Many ex-Muslims in Great Britain have faced abuse, violence, and even murder at the hands of Muslims;[22] one estimate suggests there are 200,000 apostates in Britain. There are similar reports of violent intimidation of those electing to reject Islam in other Western countries.[23]

• In 1980 Pakistan incorporated making any disparaging remark against any personality revered in Islam into the penal code as an offence. In 1986 the law was extended to specifically include "Penal Code 295-C: Use of derogatory remarks, etc., in respect of [Muhammad]: whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representations, or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of [Muhammad], shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine." In October 1990, the Federal Shariat Court (FSC) ruled that "the penalty for contempt of [Muhammad]... is death and nothing else." In their 1996 report on Pakistan, Amnesty International stated that these laws have been extensively abused to harass members of religious minorities such as Christians and Ahmadis and that

"In all the cases known to Amnesty International, these charges have been arbitrarily brought, founded solely on the individual's minority religious beliefs or on malicious accusations against individuals of the Muslim majority who advocate novel ideas. The available evidence indicates that charges were brought as a measure to intimidate and punish members of minority religious communities or non-conforming members of the majority community and that the hostility towards minority groups appeared in many cases compounded by personal enmity, professional envy or economic rivalry or a desire to gain political advantage" .[24] An example of the passions and the feelings of extreme outrage that are evoked within the Muslim community is provided by Amnesty International's 2005 Report on Pakistan:

• Samuel Masih, a 27-year-old Christian, was arrested in August 2003 and charged with having thrown litter on the ground near a mosque in Lahore. This was deemed an offence under section 295 of the Pakistan Penal Code, which provides up to two years’ imprisonment for defiling a place of worship. Samuel Masih was held in a Lahore prison but transferred to hospital in May, suffering from tuberculosis. He died after his police guard attacked him in the hospital. The police officer stated that he had done his “religious duty”; he was charged with murder.[25]

Other examples of persecution of apostates converting to Christianity have been given by the Barnabas Fund from Kuwait, Sudan, Iran, Yemen, Pakistan, Egypt, and Bangladesh. Barnabas Fund report concludes:
"The field of apostasy and blasphemy and related “crimes” is thus obviously a complex syndrome within all Muslim societies which touches a raw nerve and always arouses great emotional outbursts against the perceived acts of treason, betrayal and attacks on Islam and its honour. While there are a few brave dissenting voices within Muslim societies, the threat of the application of the apostasy and blasphemy laws against any who criticize its application is an efficient weapon used to intimidate opponents, silence criticism, punish rivals, reject innovations and reform, and keep non-Muslim communities in their place." Similar views are expressed by the 'non-religious' International Humanist and Ethical Union.[26]
This article does not cite any references or sources. (June 2007)
Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed.

• In March 2006 an Afghan citizen Abdul Rahman was charged with apostasy and could have faced the death penalty for converting to Christianity. His case attracted much international attention with Western countries condemning Afghanistan for persecuting a convert. Charges against Abdul Rahman were dismissed on technical grounds by the Afghan court after intervention by the president Hamid Karzai. He was released and left the country to find refuge in Italy.
• Two other Afghan converts to Christianity were arrested in March and their fate is unknown. In February, yet other converts had their homes raided by police.
• Bahá'ís in Iran, the nation of origin of the Bahá'í Faith and Iran's largest religious minority, are considered apostates by the Shi'a clergy because of their claim to a valid religious revelation subsequent to that of Muhammad. Iranian law therefore treats Bahá'ís as heretics rather than members of an independent religion, as they describe themselves. Bahá'ís have therefore been subjected to much persecution (documented by various third party entities such as the United Nations, Amnesty International, and the European Union) including beatings, torture, unjustified executions, false imprisonment, confiscation and destruction of property owned by individuals and the Bahá'í community, denial of employment, denial of government benefits, denial of civil rights and liberties, and denial of access to higher education.[27]
• Since the 1990s, the Islamic Republic of Iran has used death squads against converts, including major Protestant leaders, and under President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, engaged in a systematic campaign to track down and reconvert or kill those who have changed their religion from Islam.
• In 2003, Egyptian security forces arrested 22 converts and people who had helped them. Some were tortured, and one, Isam Abdul Fathr, died in custody. Last year, Gaseer Mohamed Mahmoud was whipped and had his toenails pulled out by police, and was told he would be imprisoned until he gave up Christianity.
• It appears that actual state-ordered executions are rarer than killings by vigilantes, mobs, and family members, sometimes with state acquiescence. In the last two years in Afghanistan, Islamist militants have murdered at least five Christians who had converted from Islam.
• Vigilantes have killed, beaten, and threatened converts in Pakistan, the Palestinian territories, Turkey, Nigeria, Indonesia, Somalia, and Kenya. In November, Iranian convert Ghorban Tourani was stabbed to death by a group of fanatical Muslims. In December, Nigerian pastor Zacheous Habu Bu Ngwenche was attacked for allegedly hiding a convert. In January, in Turkey, Kamil Kiroglu was beaten unconscious and threatened with death if he refused to deny his Christian faith and return to Islam.
• On March 21, 2006, the Algerian parliament approved a new law requiring imprisonment for two to five years and a fine between five and ten thousand euros for anyone "trying to call on a Muslim to embrace another religion." The same penalty applies to anyone who "stores or circulates publications or audio-visual or other means aiming at destabilizing attachment to Islam."
• Converts and Baha'is are not the only ones subject to such violence. Ahmadis, whom many Muslims regard as heretics, suffer a similar fate throughout the Muslim world. The victims also include many Muslims who question restrictive interpretations of Islam. In traditionally moderate Indonesia, Yusman Roy is now serving two years in prison for leading prayers in Indonesian and Arabic instead of only in Arabic. ISlam has for too long been about ARab supremacy, rather than faith in Allah.
• In April 2006 after a court case in Egypt recognized the Bahá'í Faith, members of the clergy convinced the government to appeal the court decision. One member of parliament, Gamal Akl of the opposition Muslim Brotherhood, said the Bahá'ís were infidels who should be killed on the grounds that they had changed their religion.[28]
• On January 21 2007, the Central Council of Ex-Muslims was founded in Germany, an association lead by exil-Iranian Mina Ahadi and Turkish-German immigrant Arzu Toker. The association stands up for former muslims who chose to abandon Islam. Shortly after going public on February 28 2007, the group received death threats by radical islamists[29]
• On April 18 2007, two Turkish converts to Christianity, Necati Aydin and Uğur Yüksel were killed in Malatya / Turkey Malatya bible publishing firm murders. The attackers slit their throat having tortured them for several hours and stated that they did it in order to defend the state and their religion. The government and other officials in Turkey had in the past criticized Christian missionary work while the European Union, which Turkey hopes to join, has called for more freedom for the Christian minority

I guess you can find evidence out there as with the case of the man killed in London, but yes it does seem rare.
And Apostasy is of course the rejection of Islam by people already in the faith, and although it is frowned upon by moderate clerics it is practiced, also you cannot deny the aggressive nature inherent in Islam that is open for interpretation by radicals inside the religion and those outside the religion that are unable to see the more humanitarian element in Islam.

Originally Posted by Robski

I guess you can find evidence out there as with the case of the man killed in London, but yes it does seem rare.

Yes, so this is one case, in connection with a London gang war, as yet unresolved.
That doesn't justify making general statements about a "convert or die" policy, far from it.

Now, "Apostasy" (I didn't even know what the word means) is a different matter, and I have no argument to say it doesn't happen, also state and religion tend to be much more going together than it is for any other religion at present.
Chitown has posted some info on the influence of Sharia on law-making and jurisdiction in the other thread on this subject.

The Muslim Boys are just a gang in London & if they are shooting anybody it is most likely over drugs or taxing & absolutely nothing to do with converting to Islam, I promise.

Forget what his mother said, parents don't want to know what their kids were up to their necks in after they are killed. There is another example in Manchester right now - the mother's giving it all that he was a good boy really shit but at the end of the day everybody else knows what the kid was really shot for.

Originally Posted by Ceburat

the Quran requires all non islamic to convert to islam or die.

I'd love to see some evidence.

Every Muslim, that is a Muslim, swears that they believe in and follow the Quran.

So anybody who follows the Quran is a nutter/numnuts?

You can double talk it anyway you want but if you want to solve the problem you must first change the thinking/believing of Muslims towards non believers.

What do Muslims think about non believers?

Originally Posted by machangezi

Originally Posted by Ceburat

You can double talk it anyway you want but if you want to solve the problem you must first change the thinking/believing of Muslims towards non believers.

What do Muslims think about non believers?

In general - I dunno, but I do believe I have a pretty good idea what you think about Ceburat....

Originally Posted by Whiteshiva

Originally Posted by machangezi

Originally Posted by Ceburat

You can double talk it anyway you want but if you want to solve the problem you must first change the thinking/believing of Muslims towards non believers.

What do Muslims think about non believers?

In general - I dunno, but I do believe I have a pretty good idea what you think about Ceburat....

Nothing more than a bigot.