Thread: The U.K and the E.U - In or out?

its like the classic case of person with an abusive boyfriend/ girlfriend:
they never leave them, because their self esteem is so low that they are scared they may not find another partner ...

Following your logic we can never leave with a pro stay-in government as they aren't going to bother providing an exit plan.

Originally Posted by blue

Following your logic

Which you're not.

Originally Posted by blue

its like the classic case of person with an abusive boyfriend/ girlfriend

Diddums. Are you being bullied by the Germans? Swear to god you sound like a petulant 5 year old.

Take the British Empire, i wonder if when thinking about independence any countries had doubters shaking with fear at the thought of freedom ?
Did the ''lets stay in the Empire fans'' run out of ammo and
try to infantilize the ''leavers'' views ....

What about the 1916 Easter uprising , were there any doubters there, petrified about foreign trade ...?
they just got on with it , like Britain should do today

Originally Posted by blue

Take the British Empire, i wonder if when thinking about independence any countries had doubters shaking with fear at the thought of freedom ?
Did the ''lets stay in the Empire fans'' run out of ammo and
try to infantilize the ''leavers'' views ....

What about the 1916 Easter uprising , were there any doubters there, petrified about foreign trade ...?
they just got on with it , like Britain should do today

Tell me, Blue. Is this how you see yourself...

this is i
getting ready for the next wave

Originally Posted by Bettyboo

^ nobody knows, Troy.

Originally Posted by blue

no one could know its up to the government to negotiate the future deals

Not the most promising answers, so far, to what is a pretty essential question in my view.

Some things in life have to be done with emotional detachment and this is one of them. You don't change jobs, no matter how much you want to, without securing another one. You don't get rid of suppliers or Customers because you don't like them...unless you have found better ones. Rule #1 you don't burn bridges....unless you are really sure.

Strong leadership going in one direction towards a known goal is required before contemplating an exit or it will all end in tears.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by Troy

I think that both sides are so eager to gain votes that they are failing in their duty to explain the pros and cons of Brexit sufficiently.

I have still not heard what the exit EU brigade are proposing in terms of a Free Trade Agreement with the EU. Are they thinking of an FTA similar to Norway or one similar to Switzerland or are they going alone without any FTA? Has a clear solution been decided on....or is it a typical Brit suck-it-and-see/get-out-first approach?

Perhaps those who have decided Brexit is a good idea could enlighten me?

Did you read post #235?

That's a lightweight opinion piece. It doesn't answer any of the questions Troy asked. It's Panglossian nonsense, God help us if that's what passes for political and economic discourse in the UK.

So you didn't read it either.

It states that we will trade with the rest of the world through the WTO like everyone else does - and that we won't be bound by the litany of EU tariffs that push the price of goods up for Britons.

That it itself is good enough for me.

Remember, the British are not voting on the basis of what pulling out of the EU does for the bankers, billionaires and politicians riding the EU gravy train, but for THEM.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

It states that we will trade with the rest of the world through the WTO like everyone else does - and that we won't be bound by the litany of EU tariffs that push the price of goods up for Britons.

Well if it states so then it must be true, right?
Interested in buying a bridge Harry?

Originally Posted by Chittychangchang

That's exactly what I am doing with that propagander leaflet, sending it to the address you supplied in the photo

.[/QUOTE]

Of course I read it and it doesn't matter what it states if there is no foundation for those statements. There are no agreements in place. What kind of person just believes something he reads without verifying its truth? I sometimes think people should have to pass an exam before being allowed to vote.[/QUOTE]

Well when the intelligentsia refuse to debate, just insult, what was it you called me Dr BOb a dim [at][at][at][at] ? We will have to rely on what we read.

As a full member of the the Labour party, i rely on party information. I will vote to remain a member. I think fighting from within is more productive. How we get the UK public to pay attention to who they vote in as MEPs is another matter.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

o you didn't read it either.

It states that we will trade with the rest of the world through the WTO like everyone else does - and that we won't be bound by the litany of EU tariffs that push the price of goods up for Britons.

That it itself is good enough for me.

Of course I read it and it doesn't matter what it states if there is no foundation for those statements. There are no agreements in place. What kind of person just believes something he reads without verifying its truth? I sometimes think people should have to pass an exam before being allowed to vote.

What do you want to verify?

Britain is a member of the WTO and a member of GATT. It's not like we'd have hoops to jump through.

There is nothing stopping us negotiating our own trade agreements with other nations from day one, and the only difference is that we aren't bound by the fucking nonsense the EU imposes on us, such as bananas not being too bent and shite. Which was imposed on everyone without the right to veto.

Fuck that shit, the British people are better off without it.

Originally Posted by Bower

As a full member of the the Labour party, i rely on party information

I'm also a full member and I have lots of different sources of information, as does every other party member I know. If you rely on the party as your single source of information you might be more at home in the North Korean Workers Party.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

There is nothing stopping us negotiating our own trade agreements with other nations from day one,

Day one is long gone. Where are the negotiations? How long do you think it takes to negotiate trade agreements? The referendum is NOT day one. Also, Britain is already a member of the WTO so absolutely nothing will change there.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

o you didn't read it either.

It states that we will trade with the rest of the world through the WTO like everyone else does - and that we won't be bound by the litany of EU tariffs that push the price of goods up for Britons.

That it itself is good enough for me.

Of course I read it and it doesn't matter what it states if there is no foundation for those statements. There are no agreements in place.

He even comes out with gems like

can we rely on the WTO, yes we can

The WTO as a preferred trading alternative to the EU? Seriously? That's leaving the dolphins and going to swim with the sharks. I understand that this guy works in Wales but he must visit planet Earth sometimes.

What kind of person just believes something he reads without verifying its truth? I sometimes think people should have to pass an exam before being allowed to vote.

You think trading under a set of stupid rules and tariffs imposed by unelected bureaucrats is "swimming with dolphins".

And you think other people don't know what they're talking about.

Maybe TTIP has been agreed behind closed doors by both sides already. If so we're going to get shafted either way.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

o you didn't read it either.

It states that we will trade with the rest of the world through the WTO like everyone else does - and that we won't be bound by the litany of EU tariffs that push the price of goods up for Britons.

That it itself is good enough for me.

Of course I read it and it doesn't matter what it states if there is no foundation for those statements. There are no agreements in place.

He even comes out with gems like

can we rely on the WTO, yes we can

The WTO as a preferred trading alternative to the EU? Seriously? That's leaving the dolphins and going to swim with the sharks. I understand that this guy works in Wales but he must visit planet Earth sometimes.

What kind of person just believes something he reads without verifying its truth? I sometimes think people should have to pass an exam before being allowed to vote.

You think trading under a set of stupid rules and tariffs imposed by unelected bureaucrats is "swimming with dolphins".

And you think other people don't know what they're talking about.

What do you think the WTO actually is, Harry? As for unelected officials well, yes, civil services are normally unelected - parliaments are elected. Europe has a Parliament. Did you vote or take any part in MEP activities? Who will you vote for in the WTO? Who are they accountable to? Will they get you visa free travel in Europe when the British lose their freedom of movement rights? Congratulations on your access to the open markets of Rwanda!

Originally Posted by CR7CristianoRonaldo

Even VIPs who are campaigning to stay in seem to think the EU is crap. Hardly a ringing endorsement is it !

thats a good point .
Even they don't like, or pretend not to like idea of federal Europe but do not have the balls or brains to vote against it .
They bleat on about free trade ..
how they reconcile championing free trade and being a member of a protectionist club beats me ..
They scoff at the idea of Britain having trade barriers for imports but are perfectly ok with the EU doing it .
Same people big up globalization, and yet want to be tied to the apron strings a local club ..

Originally Posted by blue

they

Originally Posted by blue

They

Originally Posted by blue

they

Originally Posted by blue

They

Originally Posted by blue

Same people

Who??

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

o you didn't read it either.

It states that we will trade with the rest of the world through the WTO like everyone else does - and that we won't be bound by the litany of EU tariffs that push the price of goods up for Britons.

That it itself is good enough for me.

Of course I read it and it doesn't matter what it states if there is no foundation for those statements. There are no agreements in place.

He even comes out with gems like

can we rely on the WTO, yes we can

The WTO as a preferred trading alternative to the EU? Seriously? That's leaving the dolphins and going to swim with the sharks. I understand that this guy works in Wales but he must visit planet Earth sometimes.

What kind of person just believes something he reads without verifying its truth? I sometimes think people should have to pass an exam before being allowed to vote.

You think trading under a set of stupid rules and tariffs imposed by unelected bureaucrats is "swimming with dolphins".

And you think other people don't know what they're talking about.

What do you think the WTO actually is, Harry? As for unelected officials well, yes, civil services are normally unelected - parliaments are elected. Europe has a Parliament. Did you vote or take any part in MEP activities? Who will you vote for in the WTO? Who are they accountable to? Will they get you visa free travel in Europe when the British lose their freedom of movement rights? Congratulations on your access to the open markets of Rwanda!

Notwithstanding the rest of your rambling, don't you know what the WTO is?

The World Trade Organization (WTO) is the only global international organization dealing with the rules of trade between nations. At its heart are the WTO agreements, negotiated and signed by the bulk of the world’s trading nations and ratified in their parliaments. The goal is to help producers of goods and services, exporters, and importers conduct their business.

We already deal with it through the EU.

So there is no problem dealing with it ourselves.

We don't need the EU to conduct trade with foreign partners.

Why do you think we do?

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

We already deal with it through the EU.

So there is no problem dealing with it ourselves.

Jesus

God help the UK if you're typical of the people voting.

Originally Posted by DrB0b

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

We already deal with it through the EU.

So there is no problem dealing with it ourselves.

Jesus

God help the UK if you're typical of the people voting.

So like all the rest of the frightened yes sheeple, you haven't really got a good reason for staying in other than a load of shit, apocryphal scare stories.

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

The World Trade Organization (WTO) is the only global international organization dealing with the rules of trade between nations. At its heart are the WTO agreements, negotiated and signed by the bulk of the world’s trading nations and ratified in their parliaments. The goal is to help producers of goods and services, exporters, and importers conduct their business.

We already deal with it through the EU. So there is no problem dealing with it ourselves. We don't need the EU to conduct trade with foreign partners. Why do you think we do?

You are suggesting Brexit go with the no EU FTA approach so I will question whether this is the best alternative first.

It is a favoured option in the 'Brexit campaign' since it involves no payments to the EU and no migration of EU members...i.e., full control of UK borders to and from the EU together with an instant saving of "£55m / day".

As I understand it, the WTO rules consist of the maximum tariffs countries can impose on imported goods and services. The EU has FTAs with many countries that lower these tariffs and the UK is able to import/export under these conditions. Following Brexit, the UK will have to trade at the maximum tariffs until separate negotiated FTAs, lowering them, have taken place and there is no guarantee that this lower tariff will be as low as that obtained by the EU.

The reports I have read suggest that this option has the worst 20 year economic outcome of all options available. The maximum WTO tariffs can be found but I haven't seen any reports with the EU negotiated tariffs and none with the expected trade and tariffs to fully support the conclusions. The reports did give optimistic/pessimistic figures though and the outlook did not look as good as one would hope.

Perhaps, Harry, you could provide me with links with substantiating figures to show that this is indeed the best option for Brexit.

Originally Posted by Troy

Originally Posted by harrybarracuda

The World Trade Organization (WTO) is the only global international organization dealing with the rules of trade between nations. At its heart are the WTO agreements, negotiated and signed by the bulk of the world’s trading nations and ratified in their parliaments. The goal is to help producers of goods and services, exporters, and importers conduct their business.

We already deal with it through the EU. So there is no problem dealing with it ourselves. We don't need the EU to conduct trade with foreign partners. Why do you think we do?

You are suggesting Brexit go with the no EU FTA approach so I will question whether this is the best alternative first.

Not at all.

I'm simply saying that if the EU spits the dummy we have that option.

Since the EU sells more to us than we to them, it would not really be in their interests to have a tantrum.

The UK would pay tariffs on goods and services it exported into the EU, but since the UK would pay ‘most favoured nation’ rates, that would prohibit either side imposing punitive duties and sparking a trade war.
These WTO tariffs range from 32 per cent on wine, to 4.1 per cent on liquefied natural gas, with items like cars (9.8 per cent) and wheat products (12.8 per cent) somewhere in between.
John Springford, an economist with the Centre for European Reform, the total cost of those tariffs would be large, ranging from a 2.2 per cent of GDP (£40 billion) to 9 per cent.
Business for Britain, which campaigns for exit, estimates that at worst, tariffs would cost British exporters just £7.4 billion a year and says the UK would save enough on EU membership fees to be able to compensate exporters for that.
Damian Chalmers, professor of European Union law at the London School of Economics, says the bigger threat to the UK exports would not be from WTO tariffs, but other EU states imposing new regulations and other “non-tariff barriers” to keep UK services out.

(What about the UK striking trade deals with other big economies?)

This is eminently possible, but is likely to take time. Having ceded responsibility for trade policy to the EU, the UK civil service may lack the capacity to strike major trade deals quickly.
It is also possible, as David Cameron argues, that other countries will want to see what terms the UK receives in Europe before committing to their own deal, potentially leading to further delays.
A larger question will be about the UK’s bargaining power with countries whose domestic politics push them towards protectionism, not free trade. Professor Chalmers warns that striking trade deals with major economies such as the US, China and India would be “tough” for Britain.
Brexit campaigners note that the EU has so far failed to secure such free trade deals, and suggest the UK would have a better chance negotiating in its own right with politicians in Washington, Beijing and New Delhi.

EU Facts: what would leaving mean for trade? - Telegraph