Thread: What Will It Take To Get Rid Of ISIS?

Here is something funny to consider.

Two articles from the corporate press.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ing-poll-says/

1 in 5 Syrians PREFER life under ISIS to previous existence under Bashar al-Assad | Daily Mail Online

So - fairly conclusive right? Syrians love living under Islamic State?

Well, what the real headline is, that is hidden in the articles, and they bank on the fact that most people do not read articles, and only scan headlines....

Daily MAil

82% believe ISIS an an invention of America and its allies

Washington post

So the people in Syria who have been exposed to ISIS.... say that it is a creation of the west. It is reported in the mainstream media that Syrians prefer living under ISIS.

Hmmmm carry on, ostriches.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

So - fairly conclusive right? Syrians love living under Islamic State?

Not really, it says 1 in 5 from 1,365 polled Syrians.

Pretty far from being conclusive of anything.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

Well, what the real headline is, that is hidden in the articles, and they bank on the fact that most people do not read articles, and only scan headlines....

Who is they, the newspapers?

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Who is they, the newspapers?

Yes.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Not really, it says 1 in 5 polled Syrians.

No - because they say Prefer Living Under ISIS, when the real question was Is ISIS a positive influence.

I thought you didn't care, emu?

Ant 20% of syrians polled is a very good calculation for a poll.

22.6 million population

Originally Posted by pseudolus

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Who is they, the newspapers?

Yes.

So you're saying that they put information they don't want you to know or see in articles but bank on people not actually reading the articles beyond the headlines to see it?

Hiding information it in plain sight as it were?

Originally Posted by pseudolus

I thought you didn't care, emu?

I don't, just trying to make sense of what you're saying.

Now what was it you were saying about name-calling... ?

Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

Ant 20% of syrians polled is a very good calculation for a poll.

22.6 million population

I think your math is off there, the poll was of 1,365 people (0.006%?).

On top of that 1 in 5 of 1,365 is marginal at best.

Ignoratio elenchi - it is all Ant uses. Socrates was sentenced to death and one of the reasons was that he taught people to win arguments using techniques such as ignoratio elenchi. Indeed, the Socratic method is based around ignoratio elenchi, Its a bit unfair though, as really Socrates, which any person who has read Plato would know, never used or taught the Socratic method at all. Socrates, unlike his accusers, and Ant it seems, was more than prepared to debate the actual meat and bones of a discussion. His accusers, and Ant it would seem, does not like this, and they themselves revert to the Socratic method which is a very low form of debating. It is what people nowadays call the Small Win. Politicians use this crass technique continually and is usually what is happening when they appear to never answer an actual question.

Ant ye you got me there never read the link

Britain, America and France ignored a Russian proposal for Bashar al-Assad to peacefully resign as Syrian leader three years ago, it has been claimed.
Former Finnish president and Nobel peace prize winner Martti Ahtisaari claims that a Russian diplomat outlined plans for Assad's departure at a UN Security Council meeting in February 2012.
But Western nations were so convinced that the embattled dictator was about to be overthrown that they refused to enter into the negotiations, Ahtisaari claimed.
If his allegations are true, it means that the bloody Syrian Civil War could have come to a peaceful conclusion three years ago - saving hundreds of thousands of lives, blocking the rise of ISIS in the country, and even preventing Europe's worst migrant crisis since the Second World War.


Read more: 1 in 5 Syrians PREFER life under ISIS to previous existence under Bashar al-Assad | Daily Mail Online
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

Ant ye you got me there never read the link

Kind of proves the point, no? Most people do not read articles but scan headlines.

Surely the real headline would be ;

POLL - Survey says 82% of polled SYRIANS believe ISIS is an invention of the US and the WEST.

That is the real headline from that poll.

If people posted the whole article wouldn't need to make assumptions.

You've done what journo's do deceptive news reporting.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

Ignoratio elenchi - it is all Ant uses. Socrates was sentenced to death and one of the reasons was that he taught people to win arguments using techniques such as ignoratio elenchi. Indeed, the Socratic method is based around ignoratio elenchi, Its a bit unfair though, as really Socrates, which any person who has read Plato would know, never used or taught the Socratic method at all. Socrates, unlike his accusers, and Ant it seems, was more than prepared to debate the actual meat and bones of a discussion. His accusers, and Ant it would seem, does not like this, and they themselves revert to the Socratic method which is a very low form of debating. It is what people nowadays call the Small Win. Politicians use this crass technique continually and is usually what is happening when they appear to never answer an actual question.

I just asked a question, Pseudo.

Why is it every time you're asked a question you devolve to name-calling. You're the one employing logical fallacies and never answering the actual question (whilst demanding people answer yours and taking the absence of a negative as proof of the positive).

Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

If people posted the whole article wouldn't need to make assumptions.

You've done what journo's do deceptive news reporting.

How many articles have we collectively posted up that no one bothers to read due to their cognitive dissonance? 10? 50? 1000?

Originally Posted by pseudolus

How many articles have we collectively posted up that no one bothers to read due to their cognitive dissonance? 10? 50? 1000?

I read the article you posted above (not the DM one, that's blocked) and it didn't support the contention you had made.

I trusted you and was deceived.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

If people posted the whole article wouldn't need to make assumptions.

You've done what journo's do deceptive news reporting.

How many articles have we collectively posted up that no one bothers to read due to their cognitive dissonance? 10? 50? 1000?

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by pseudolus

How many articles have we collectively posted up that no one bothers to read due to their cognitive dissonance? 10? 50? 1000?

I read the article you posted above (not the DM one, that's blocked) and it didn't support the contention you had made.

What ? That 80% plus of people surveyed in Syria believe that the US created ISIS? It states it in clear. It deceives by trying to draw attention to a very small stat, knowing that people only read headlines, tried to claim that Syrians wanted ISIS?

As you are a pedant, and clearly more skilled in trolling than I am, let me try and demeen myself and come down to your level.

My initial contention was "So - fairly conclusive right? Syrians love living under Islamic State? Syrians love living under Islamic State? "

Now, I did not state ALL. I did not say how many. I said SYRIANS. Are you saying that there are no Syrians, or perhaps just one Syrian, who prefers living under ISIS? (Even though the actual poll question was Is ISIS a positive Influence, and says nothing about preferring to live under ISIS... another blatant lie by the corporate media). So, as a man even of your intellect must realise, they are claiming that some Syrians, Syrians, like ISIS.

The other contention is that the real story is that 4 times as many Syrians believe that the US and the West created ISIS, and that this is deliberate obfuscation on their behalf. Would they ever run a headline that says Syrians Believe the US and West created ISIS? No.

So what is your point? Are you going to pick apart a spelling mistake next? Grammatical error?

HEre is the mail article that you can open
1 in 5 Syrians PREFER life under ISIS to previous existence under Bashar al-Assad | Daily Mail Online

Also, you will note that to continue the lies, deceit and propaganda, they also include a video about the chemical weapons attack, blaming Assad, when ALL real inquiries into this prove categorically that it was the west backed ISIS terrorists that used them, and the chemical weapons came from the USA, through Saudi.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

The other contention is that the real story is that 4 times as many Syrians believe that the US and the West created ISIS,

I would like to know what question was asked in this poll, and in what context. These things matter when interpreting the data. The Syrian respondants may rightly feel that ISIS came about because of the invasion of Iraq by Western powers, which left a power void in the area and paved the way for ISIS (many of ISIS's generals are Saddam's old generals who were kicked out of the army when the US first occupied Iraq). so they may blame the West or poor planning, ineptness, stupidity, irresponsibility, etc., but that doesn't necessarily mean they think the West contrived to actually create ISIS. Now that would be a headline.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

What ? That 80% plus of people surveyed in Syria believe that the US created ISIS? It states it in clear. It deceives by trying to draw attention to a very small stat, knowing that people only read headlines, tried to claim that Syrians wanted ISIS?

As you are a pedant, and clearly more skilled in trolling than I am, let me try and demeen myself and come down to your level.

My initial contention was "So - fairly conclusive right? Syrians love living under Islamic State? Syrians love living under Islamic State? "

Now, I did not state ALL. I did not say how many. I said SYRIANS. Are you saying that there are no Syrians, or perhaps just one Syrian, who prefers living under ISIS? (Even though the actual poll question was Is ISIS a positive Influence, and says nothing about preferring to live under ISIS... another blatant lie by the corporate media). So, as a man even of your intellect must realise, they are claiming that some Syrians, Syrians, like ISIS.

Twenty-two percent ('IS is positive influence') and 21% ('Prefer life now than under Assad') of a sample of 1,365 people does not in any way support the contention that it's "fairly conclusive" that "Syrians love living under Islamic State".

Damned lies and statistics: you're doing exactly what it is you are accusing the report of doing in selectively fudging the numbers to suit.

That's twice now in this thread that you've made statements that aren't supported by the facts and when I've queried you on them you've immediately started name-calling. That's nothing to do with me being pedantic.

Don't answer the questions if you don't want to, ignore them/me, but engaging in logical fallacies and ad hominen - the same charge you level at others - does your case no great favours.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

The other contention is that the real story is that 4 times as many Syrians believe that the US and the West created ISIS, and that this is deliberate obfuscation on their behalf. Would they ever run a headline that says Syrians Believe the US and West created ISIS? No.

Here's one I found from a quick Google, Iranians not Syrians though I don't see that as an important distinction for the point at hand:

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/11/wo...tion.html?_r=0

And here's what I don't get: let's say that you're right and they wouldn't run such a headline, then why bother putting the info in there at all. Why hope that people wouldn't read the article, why not just not include it.

knock yourself out

http://www.opinion.co.uk/perch/resources/syriadata.pdf

Q3 (Summary table) - Thinking about the persons and the groups which are working now in Syria, Generally, do you think that their influence is negative or positive on the matters in Syria -
is that influence strongly or somehow

Washington post rewrites this as "IS is a positive influence"

Daily Shite rewrties this as "PREFER life under ISIS to their previous existence under Assad"

Q12 (Summary table) - There are many reasons around to explain the presence of ISIL in Iraq/Syria, please tell me if strongly agree, somewhat agree, somewhat disagree,
or a strongly disagree for the reason that explains the presence of ISIL?

ISIL is US foreign manufacturer = Net 82% agree.

The other interesting point from the survey is that 76% of the respondents disagree with the idea that conflict has arisen from internal sectarian division (the old Sunni v Shi'ite bullshit that racists like to through out.)

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Twenty-two percent ('IS is positive influence') and 21% ('Prefer life now than under Assad') of a sample of 1,365 people does not in any way support the contention that it's "fairly conclusive" that "Syrians love living under Islamic State".

Pedant. It was in reference to what people would perceive reading the headline and article. Go and play with smeg. There's good chap.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Twenty-two percent ('IS is positive influence') and 21% ('Prefer life now than under Assad') of a sample of 1,365 people does not in any way support the contention that it's "fairly conclusive" that "Syrians love living under Islamic State".

Pedant. It was in reference to what people would perceive reading the headline and article. Go and play with smeg. There's good chap.

And yet I read the article - when you said people don't - and didn't perceive that, quite the opposite in fact.

And your immediate response to something that doesn't support your point: name-calling.

Sterling hypocrisy, Pseudo.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Originally Posted by pseudolus

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

Twenty-two percent ('IS is positive influence') and 21% ('Prefer life now than under Assad') of a sample of 1,365 people does not in any way support the contention that it's "fairly conclusive" that "Syrians love living under Islamic State".

Pedant. It was in reference to what people would perceive reading the headline and article. Go and play with smeg. There's good chap.

And yet I read the article - when you said people don't - and didn't perceive that, quite the opposite in fact.

And your immediate response to something that doesn't support your point: name-calling.

Sterling hypocrisy, Pseudo.

No not really. Boredom more like. Pendant isn't name calling by the way. Anyway, when you step away from your continual use of ignoratio elenchi, I might stop calling you a pedant. Blimey - you get more like Tony Abbott every day (and yes, that was name calling).

The level of your debate and ability to make a logical and coherent point...

It's a little embarrassing frankly.

Originally Posted by AntRobertson

The level of your debate and ability to make a logical and coherent point...

It's a little embarrassing frankly.

Says the man who only ever debates using ignoratio elench / small wins. Yup - Tony Abbot. That's who you remind me of.

Originally Posted by pseudolus

Originally Posted by Horatio Hornblower

Ant ye you got me there never read the link

Kind of proves the point, no? Most people do not read articles but scan headlines.

Surely the real headline would be ;

POLL - Survey says 82% of polled SYRIANS believe ISIS is an invention of the US and the WEST.

That is the real headline from that poll.

Things we know:

- IS was born out of the US invading Iraq and handing it to the Shi'a, who then went looking for revenge against the Sunni.

- Some of the GCC countries armed the Shi'a rebels but Russia prevented the West going full throttle to overthrow Assad.

- IS took advantage of the ensuing stalemate and fractious divides between various Rebel factions to move into Syria and establish a foothold.

- IS got hold of some of the weapons that the GCC had funneled to Syria from the US.

-IS also got hold of lots of Assad's weapons too. And Iraq's.

- The concept that IS is an "invention" of the US is just some crackpot theory you wank over when you listen to Alex Jones.