^ Death toll Crimea - 2.
Death toll Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan - 1 million? 2?
Define barbarous for me again....
^ Death toll Crimea - 2.
Death toll Iraq, Libya, Afghanistan - 1 million? 2?
Define barbarous for me again....
The moral rightness or wrongness of the Iraq war is a complex and separate issue. It was not about territorial acquisition anyway (although Iraq did originally invade and annex Kuwait to start the whole thing off).
Either way it does not make Russia's neanderthal behaviour any less wrong.
Why do you value a small chunk of land, most of which is probably the private property of Russians over millions of wasted lives and indiscriminate murder?
That the Crimeans chose union with Russia is of no importance, they could just as easily have chosen Independence, they were already Autonomous. Why is Russias support of their democratic expression in the face of an illegal coup and illegitimate government any different to the US and NATO interventions?
Crimeans are not free to choose what they want to do if they part of a nation state. They must have a dialogue with the nation state to negotiate their exit.
Russia used military force to affect the outcome which is also against basic rules of international diplomacy when a region is looking for secession.
I don't see a comparison with Iraq. They are very different situations.
Ukraine - Coup, Illegitimate government.
If they are not going to follow their own laws, why should the Autonomous Region of Crimea?
It is still an internal sovereign dispute at that stage and none of Russia's business and certainly not grounds for an international land hi-jack.
Maybe we should ask the people -
Putin’s approval rating hits 80 percent
Putin’s approval rating hits 80 percent
Ukraine Crisis Hurts Obama Approval Ratings
Overall disapproval of the job Obama is doing ticked up to 59 percent — a record high for his presidency — in the poll released Wednesday.
Now he's hit a new low on international relations — just 40 percent approval.
Poll: Ukraine Crisis Hurts Obama Approval Ratings - ABC News
Right on bro. Bloody low information libtards the lot of you.Originally Posted by Looper
the CCCP wasn't that bad, small play in comparison to what the world has become
supervising mass murders - check
illegal invasion - check
creating economic collapse - check
press propaganda - check
grandiose leaders - check
organizing genocide - check
so I stand by my words, the "West" world has become far worse than the CCCP era
What Russia did was illegal. Comparing it to illegal incursions into sovereign states by othe powers such as the US and the "west" doesn't make it legal.
With full veto power in the UN and no fear sanctions would hurt much, Putin did what he knew he could get away with. Crimea is now part of the Russian Federation. Matters not 90% of the population agree. It's illegal.
Analogy is the south of Thailand. Territory ceded to Thailand way back when. Suppose Malaysia marched in, organized a referendum and when 90% voted yes Malaysian Parliament made them part of Malaysia. Illegal. Difference is Malaysia wouldn't get away with it because they are a small weak country. The entire world would be all over them. Including Russia.
The UN has some wonderful rules and treaties signed by just about all but when a powerful nation determines they can get away with an illegal act they will do it.
Doesn't make it legal though, does it?
Sevastopol was not recognised by the international commnity as Russian terrirtory. My understanding is that they lease the port facility. That does not entitle them to interfere in Ukraines national affairs. They are tenants not owners.Originally Posted by Necron99
That is not surprising. Cowboy leaders often ride waves of national popularity. It does not make their actions right or defensible.Originally Posted by sabang
In an act of brazen land theft.Originally Posted by Butterfly
But you fail to point out, the vote was not done until after Russian troops were in Crimea, and had surrounded most Ukrainian military installations.
You also fail to point out the shelling Israel was taking from the Gohlan heights before the 1967 take over of the Gohlan heights, and the continuing rocketing by the Pallestians.
You don' think America organizing sanctions on Russia has more to do with making Putin think twice before any more land grabs.
I also noticed someone asked what America selling gas to Europe had to do with this. America has a vast reserve of natural gas and has authorized a seaport in Oregon to begin shipping gas to Europe, as Putin relies heavily on income from it's sale of natural gas to Europe the competition will have quite an adverse effect on the Russian economy
It won't. Russian LNG arrives in Europe through pipelines. It's currently impossible for US ships to compete with that. Russia exports 500 Million Cubic Meters of gas a day to Europe, there is no way the US could match that at the same price. Even if they could it will be over a decade before the US can build enough refineries and terminals to match Russian supplies.Originally Posted by RPETER65
Russia could turn every Crimean Tartar into car seat-covers and souvenir ashtrays but as long as the gas keeps flowing and the price stays low the EU will turn a blind eye.
Last edited by DrB0b; 28-03-2014 at 08:46 PM.
The Above Post May Contain Strong Language, Flashing Lights, or Violent Scenes.
No, the difference is the south does not have 90% support for the separatists. I'm not sure the figures but I doubt it's even half.Originally Posted by Norton
^Exactly.
That's why Obama is getting into war mode. These puppet twats like obama that work for corporate paymasters have only one option when they are losing a battle.Originally Posted by DrB0b
Land that was stolen from Russia and placed in a made-up entity, possession of which on what had been a reasonable agreement (very much so on Russia's) would not have come into question until western powers aligned with right-wing Ukrainian nationalists to overthrow an elected government through a violent coup on Russia's doorstep- in Russia's "borderland," which is what "Ukraina" means.
The new government in Ukraine has more to fear from the nationalist Banderistas of Svoboda/Right Sector than they do from the Russians. The Ukrainian nationalists- people such as Oleh Tyahnybok, chum of US Senator McCain- are the only serious impediment to a peaceful resolution to this conflict, and the government of Ukraine appears to be trying to rein them in. It's absurd to think Russia is going to stand for a government led by the likes of Tyahnybok and his fascist party, or even including anti-Russian fascists as part of a coalition, on their border.
BBC News - Ukraine leader Turchynov warns of far-right threat
Ukraine's interim President Olexander Turchynov has condemned the ultra-nationalist Right Sector, saying the group is bent on "destabilisation".
Right Sector activists blocked the parliament (Rada) building in Kiev on Thursday night and smashed windows.
They blamed the interior minister for the killing of a Right Sector leader.
---
It is pretty obvious what "destabilisation" means here.
“You can lead a horticulture but you can’t make her think.” Dorothy Parker
You can speculate all you like about the underlying political forces that drove the coup. It was an internal political matter. The fact is that an international land grab is orders of magnitude more serious than political subterfuge. National boundaries are taboo. Putin has stepped over a geographical and a metaphorical line. The world cannot sit back and let this oafish hooligan get away with his antics. I am disappointed that Obama is saying 'if he does anything else then...'. He has already done it and the world should send a message.
Thanks for that.Originally Posted by robuzo
Pieces of a puzzle people.
The time for battle draws near.
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