How dangerous is Vladimir Putin?

**Butterfly** · 27-04-2014, 04:05 PM

Originally Posted by OhOh

Another crime by the Ukrainian unelected Government.
Stopping the water supply to the Crimea - an illegal act of war, as defined by the Geneva Convention.

"So what does a desperate Ukraine do, realizing that all of its leverage is gone, and that its western "allies" are about to let it hang? It used the nuclear option (not very nuclear but it really doesn't have much if any leverage), and stopped the flow of the bulk of water to now Russian Crimea. "

and complete silence from the G7 for those obvious violations, blatant hypocrisy from them even with their poor history of deception and manipulation

**Butterfly** · 27-04-2014, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by quimbian corholla

Originally Posted by FloridaBorn

He fired the first shot across the bow of the Obama when he went into Georgia unimpeded and since no response of substance came of that action he is now emboldened to go further.

We know you like blaming Obama for everything but Bush was prez in 2008...

in that regard, Obama is really no better than that Bush cretin

Bush started the destruction of the USA foreign policies, Obama will put nails into it

it's obvious we are dealing with clowns and amateurs (Kerry is a complete nutter)

**Hawker** · 27-04-2014, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by barbaro

So, what do members here think will happen, if anything in Ukraine.

Is Putin rogue?

Or, just protecting from of Russia's interests?

Putin is protecting Russia's interest in the region. Obama is so weak that it's hard to say if Putin has it in him to make a move for Eastern Ukraine

**Albert Shagnastier** · 27-04-2014, 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Hawker

Putin is protecting Russia's interest in the region. Obama is so weak that it's hard to say if Putin has it in him to make a move for Eastern Ukraine

Yup - Putin looking after the national interests - who wouldn't.

Obama?

so weak that all the quotes coming from the US regarding this have been from Kerry or Biden.

If you can read between the lines - you can see how powerless and far down the chain of command Obama really is. A nobody.

**Rainfall** · 28-04-2014, 12:09 AM

Can't say this yet, Obama might want to sacrifice the areas in the Ukraine populated by Russians to make sure they'll never intervene with their vote in Ukrainian politics again, and the smaller country will become a staunch American ally. Do we agree that the Ukrainian puppet government of now can say and do nothing without the approval of the 'West'? So why antagonize the Ukrainian Russians further by trying to ban their language, later retracted, and shutdown of Russian language TV and radio stations in the Ukraine, still in effect? Yes they watch Putin Russia TV because their own has been turned off. The segregation of the Ukrainian Russians has been going on for some time. Did you ever hear the term 'Holodomor' during the cold war? This bullshit was invented for the 'revolution' of pineapple face, the first wave of open anti-Russian propaganda in the Ukraine.

**Merrimack** · 28-04-2014, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Rainfall

Can't say this yet, Obama might want to sacrifice the areas in the Ukraine populated by Russians to make sure they'll never intervene with their vote in Ukrainian politics again, and the smaller country will become a staunch American ally.

Interesting idea but it would probably end up being something like Israel and Palestine or East and West Germany.

It'd be better to just start ending relations with Russia and stop giving the Russians access to the west. Let them live in their own creation. Just as they adore putting their cash in other nations, I bet they also like to spend their time abroad more than in Russia. The west is too open to these freedom moochers. Let them live in the nation they support. Cut the visas to western nations in half right now.

**OhOh** · 28-04-2014, 01:09 PM

Originally Posted by Merrimack

Cut the visas to western nations in half right now.

At what price to the "west"? Or do you view this as a de-escalation of tension?

**Merrimack** · 28-04-2014, 03:10 PM

Cut the visas given to Russians wishing to visit or enter the west. The western world can survive without more Russians for a few years. When Russians just can't jump on a plane and travel, they might start putting pressure on their government.

**Butterfly** · 28-04-2014, 03:16 PM

Putin needs to start retaliating and invade Ukraine, the west is not getting the right message and still have hope for their land grab

can't let that happen,

**OhOh** · 28-04-2014, 04:05 PM

Link and comments on the recent "G-7 Leaders Statement on Ukraine"

G-7 Leaders Statement on Ukraine

"We, the leaders of Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom, the United States, the President of the European Council and the President of the European Commission, join in expressing our deep concern at the continued efforts by separatists backed by Russia to destabilize eastern Ukraine and our commitment to taking further steps to ensure a peaceful and stable environment for the May 25 presidential election.
We welcomed the positive steps taken by Ukraine to meet its commitments under the Geneva accord of April 17 by Ukraine, Russia, the European Union, and the United States. These actions include working towards constitutional reform and decentralization, proposing an amnesty law for those who will peacefully leave the buildings they have seized in eastern Ukraine, and supporting the work of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE). We also note that the Government of Ukraine has acted with restraint in dealing with the armed bands illegally occupying government buildings and forming illegal checkpoints.
In contrast, Russia has taken no concrete actions in support of the Geneva accord. It has not publicly supported the accord, nor condemned the acts of pro-separatists seeking to destabilize Ukraine, nor called on armed militants to leave peacefully the government buildings they’ve occupied and put down their arms. Instead, it has continued to escalate tensions by increasingly concerning rhetoric and ongoing threatening military maneuvers on Ukraine’s border.
We reiterate our strong condemnation of Russia’s illegal attempt to annex Crimea and Sevastopol, which we do not recognize. We will now follow through on the full legal and practical consequences of this illegal annexation, including but not limited to the economic, trade and financial areas.
We have now agreed that we will move swiftly to impose additional sanctions on Russia. Given the urgency of securing the opportunity for a successful and peaceful democratic vote next month in Ukraine’s presidential elections, we have committed to act urgently to intensify targeted sanctions and measures to increase the costs of Russia’s actions.
Russia’s actions in Ukraine and the response from the international community already have imposed significant costs on its economy. While we continue to prepare to move to broader, coordinated sanctions, including sectoral measures should circumstances warrant, as we committed to in The Hague on March 24, we underscore that the door remains open to a diplomatic resolution of this crisis, on the basis of the Geneva accord. We urge Russia to join us in committing to that path."

1. The agreement was for the return of the illegally occupied offices in ALL of the Ukraine, not just the eastern part.

2. The restraint includes of course surrounding cities in the east with Planes, helicopters, tanks, APCs artillery, 100,000's of heavily armed troops and mercenaries - a la Fallujah in the Iraq. When the previous Ukrainian President used unarmed police to "restore order" he was hounded out of office.

3. They must have missed or possibly not tweeted, seen the Russian Government statements or purposely failed to publicise them

4. The NATO forces have not only threatened to have military manoeuvres they have actually sent troops, ships, aircraft and weapons into the region to "reassure" the puppet Ukranian government and surrounding NATO countries. Did their citizens vote for these antagonistic moves by their governments? Did the governments hold a legal referendum asking for permission?

5, There was no illegality. A referendum was freely held and the voters of the Ukraine voted for absorption into Russia.

6. The "international community"

Nobody from Africa, nobody from South America and only Japan from Asia. How many of those countries Governments held a referendum and asked it's voters prior to this coup and potential war?

Another piece of NATO propaganda released as fact.

**Butterfly** · 28-04-2014, 06:26 PM

the west has become the Soviet Union in the 60s and 70s, you have to wonder if it wasn't always like this but we were distracted by the illusion of the cold war

if the Cold War is responsible for the destruction of the Soviet Union, then it's clear that the illusionist "War on Terror" and other "Regime Change" wars will bring the full destruction of the west, and former Communist Russia and China will prevail in the future

what an interesting irony for history,

**Albert Shagnastier** · 28-04-2014, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by OhOh

The "international community" Nobody from Africa, nobody from South America and only Japan from Asia. How many of those countries Governments held a referendum and asked it's voters prior to this coup and potential war?

Yeah, funny that

Originally Posted by OhOh

Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, the United Kingdom, the United States

Canada - Under the US's thumb
France - Under the US's thumb
Germany - still feels bad about WW2
Italy - They'll do anything for a tenner

(Under the US's thumb)
Japan - US bitches
UK - Part of the US's thumb.

So G7 is pretty much the US, much like NATO, much like The IMF and much like The World Bank.

**Butterfly** · 29-04-2014, 03:50 AM

France completely lost it,

Hollande is a fucking shill, almost as bad as Cameron

**Merrimack** · 29-04-2014, 09:00 AM

Butterfly, you may be right to some extent but Russians certainly aren't flocking back to Russia these days. They are still flooding westward. And Americans and Westerners aren't seeking refuge in Russia so it seems as bad as the western world may be in your view, it's still the people's choice. You sound a bit like Mahathir Mohammed with his 24/7 anti-western rhetoric. By the way, you are a bit like Boonme's evil commie twin.

Some NPR radio on Ukraine today...

http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPl...2&d=04-28-2014

**pseudolus** · 29-04-2014, 09:44 AM

Originally Posted by Merrimack

By the way, you are a bit like Boonme's evil commie twin.

What was your old username then?

Anyway, all these John Kerry quotes are doing wonders for me, personally. I've not laughed so hard in a long time, and everytime I feel a little glum I search him out on the mainstream news channels and feel better straight away.

So easy for the worlds sheep to swallow the hypercritical rhetoric that is pumped out all the time. In not recognising Crimea as being part of Russia now, even though the people their want to be part of Russia, I hope that shortly Northern Ireland will no longer be recognised and handed back to the Irish. The Falkands islands as well. Apparently, what the people that live there want is not important these days. I wonder when Israel will be handed back to Palestine. Problem is though, that true to their words, the west does not recognise Palestine either. Only way to resolve this is to carve it up again and hand most of it back to the Turks. Yes, that's what needs to happen.

**Merrimack** · 29-04-2014, 12:42 PM

U.S. Air Force Intercepts Russian Spy Plane - Business Insider

According to Latvia’s Military, U.S. Air Force F-15Cs, deployed to Šiauliai, Lithuania for air policing in the Baltics, intercepted an Il-20 spy plane.

Russian Air Force missions in the area often require NATO jet fighters to intercept Il-20 spy planes, Tu-22M Backfire bombers, and Su-27 fighter jets. Such close encounters have become a bit more frequent since Russian invasion of Crimea and subsequent international crisis over Ukraine.

On February 24, two F-15Cs taking part to a flyby in Estonia were diverted to intercept a Russian plane before flying over the city of Pärnu.

On April 25, two Tu-95H bombers were intercepted by RAF Typhoons and by Dutch and Danish F-16s during a long range patrol around UK.

.

**Butterfly** · 29-04-2014, 02:12 PM

why is it wrong for Russia airplanes to spy on its neighbors, while the Americans are doing it on Russia and its neighbors ?

Russia might be a dictatorship, but it has international rights and the Americans have become extremely silly in their rethoric and achievable political targets

**pseudolus** · 29-04-2014, 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Butterfly

why is it wrong for Russia airplanes to spy on its neighbors, while the Americans are doing it on Russia and its neighbors

Ahh but America are the World Police!

**OhOh** · 29-04-2014, 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Merrimack

On February 24, two F-15Cs taking part to a flyby in Estonia were diverted to intercept a Russian plane before flying over the city of Pärnu.

Hot news straight, off the wire, there

in·ter·cept
ˌintərˈsept/
verb
past tense: intercepted; past participle: intercepted
1.
obstruct (someone or something) so as to prevent them from continuing to a destination.
"intelligence agencies intercepted a series of telephone calls"
synonyms:stop, head off, cut off.

Or did the Il-20 spy plane pilot give them a one fingered salute!

**OhOh** · 29-04-2014, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by pseudolus

Ahh but America are the World mafia!

That might be more realistic.

**Merrimack** · 29-04-2014, 02:47 PM

Sure every country has rights. At the same time, I'm all for giving Poland and all the other nations that don't want to be retaken by Russia total support. Screw the filthy Russian thieves. You can support who you like but if you really think Russia deserves consideration despite its thievery you should probably leave the western capitalist world and move to Russia to join their new national socialist or whatever project. Trying to take over Crimea is totally unnecessary in this age. It's a backward move by an unsurprisingly developmentally-incapable nation. Maybe the west needs to start funding more covert actions on Russian soil. There are plenty of Russians now living in the west. These people should be used more to change their shitty nation of birth through information, propaganda and other not violent means as it obviously needs change. Sanctions are good for pressure right now but really Russia needs... re-education.

**pseudolus** · 29-04-2014, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by Merrimack

I'm all for giving Poland and all the other nations that don't want to be retaken by Russia total support. Screw the filthy Russian thieves.

What about the Iraqis? The Afghans? They didn't want the yanks to be taken by force. What about the Syrians who were about to be? The list of US invasions / enforced regime changes in the last 40 years is staggering. A bunch of hypercritical nonsense.

The people in Crimea want away from the despotic EU regime, and decided to return to being Russian. Get used to it.

**OhOh** · 29-04-2014, 03:30 PM

Originally Posted by Merrimack

leave the western capitalist world

Done that, next?

Originally Posted by Merrimack

Trying to take over Crimea is totally unnecessary in this age. It's a backward move but an unsurprisingly developmentally-incapable nation

How many countries, at the last count, has the USA/UK/France/Spain/Portugal/Germany/Italy........ (NATO countries) + one G7 country - Japan, "taken over" in the last century or so?

Originally Posted by Merrimack

Maybe the west needs to start funding more covert actions on Russian soil

They have been and will continue funding covert operations, it's their only way. Promising to save the poor oppressed citizens and failing abysmally. They tried military action unfortunately the results have not been too impressive or beneficial to them for decades. The only winners are the voters/taxpayers funded handouts to the select few, the contracts to supply mercenaries/arms/redevelopment projects or first grab of the countries resources - Gold, foreign exchange, land, oil or gas, debt slaves.......

Originally Posted by Merrimack

Sanctions are good for pressure right now

What real affect have the "sanctions" had on the Russians, A broad measure is the state of their stock markets. The US market indices has fallen, % wise, much more than the Russian since the imposition of these formidable

sanctions. A few government employees or Russian companies cannot travel to a few countries or sell their goods to the same few countries.

Or is it a global embargo on Russian travellers and goods - thought not?

**Merrimack** · 29-04-2014, 03:33 PM

You're absolutely right about what America did and the western nations but the crimes against nations and peoples are very much a part of Russia's history as well. It's not one or the other. All the bs in the world has to end.

I'm also for ending the invasions everywhere and ending dictatorships. I'm not going to support Russia because America did something wrong. It's just wrong. Wrong is wrong. People need to choose their own governments and they deserve freedom and rights, not fear. All these land grabs and invasions need to end. The world's military needs to be reduced at the same time. Leaders who take away the people's voices shouldn't be tolerated. Let the people choose their government.

**Merrimack** · 29-04-2014, 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by OhOh

Originally Posted by Merrimack

leave the western capitalist world

Done that, next?

Thailand is with the west. Move to Russia, China or North Korea. Stop your hypocrisy.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Originally Posted by Merrimack

Trying to take over Crimea is totally unnecessary in this age. It's a backward move but an unsurprisingly developmentally-incapable nation

How many countries, at the last count, has the USA/UK/France/Spain/Portugal/Germany/Italy........ (NATO countries) "taken over" in the last century or so?

Really. You support wrong because the west did wrong?

Originally Posted by OhOh

Originally Posted by Merrimack

Maybe the west needs to start funding more covert actions on Russian soil

They have been and will continue funding covert operations, it's their only way. Promising to save the poor oppressed citizens and failing abysmally. They tried military action unfortunately the results have not been too impressive or beneficial to them for decades. The only winners are the voters/taxpayers funded handouts to the select few, the contracts to supply mecenaries/arms/redevelopment projects or first grab of the countries resources - Gold, foreign exchange, land, oil or gas.......

Probably true.

Originally Posted by OhOh

Originally Posted by Merrimack

Sanctions are good for pressure right now

What real affect have the "sanctions" had on the Russians, A broad measure is the state of their stock markets. The US market indices has fallen, % wise, much more than the Russian since the imposition of these formidable

sanctions.

That may be true. I heard that it'll take 3-5 years to knock down Russia as it has a lot of reserves. They could cut visas to the west in half and get other nations such as those in Asia including Thailand to get on board.

The other option is just to give up Ukraine. What do you think about the Ukrainians who are dying on their own land due to Russians and Ukrainian Russians? Do you support the people who kill them? I would guess you supported the 'Pro-Russian' forces of Serbia in the former Yugoslavia. Maybe the world should just have stayed out of that one and let the Serbs do as they pleased.

Thread: How dangerous is Vladimir Putin?

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