Thread: Reasons Citizens Should Own Guns

Originally Posted by Troy

Originally Posted by RickThai

IMO the old man should have been given the death penalty. You don't shoot someone just because you think they committed a crime. Only shoot them if they are in your home and you catch them in the act.

Almost there, only wrong on two counts. Death penalty gives out the wrong signals and shooting to kill for burglary when it should only be carried out as an act of self defence.

One an only agree with that.

The problem with 'self-defence' is the definition thereof. It seems, perhaps inevitably, to be vague and it's up to the person who claims that he was defending himself when he shot to prove self-defence. Doing so after the deed is fraught with risk.

A gun should be a measure of last resort when death or injury seems inevitable. If a gun is one's only means of security and self-defence, then that is stupid. Even then, showing the gun or firing a warning shot should come first where possible and, after that, shoot to stop rather than kill. On the other hand, if an intruder is carrying a gun, then a quick decision has to be made.

I fail to understand the comparisons of death by shooting with accidents, surgery and sickness. Even comparing the use of a gun by an intruder with a knife, for example, is a somewhat fallacious argument. Knives don't kill so easily, require close contact and can possibly be resisted short of killing with a gun as a response. Chuck the duvet at the knife and pick up the apse. That would probably be safer than reaching under the pillow for a loaded handgun while the gun is being levelled at you.

Originally Posted by leemo

Anyone know the types of penalty around the world that a parent can expect for deliberately and intentionally killing their child?

If such a list existed, I'm sure it would reveal some disturbing figures.

Here's some information that my lead in the right direction:

Infanticide - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

People like you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near guns nor children apparently

If I had children I wouldn't let them anywhere near Rick.

From this thread we know that he is armed, seems to enjoy watching snuff videos, has violent fantasies, believes 15% of humanity should be randomly selected for execution as a crime prevention measure, happily disregards the rule of law when it suits him, makes a list of ways to kill a child which are "not that hard" but which could equally apply to anybody who can be physically overwhelmed yet he specifies children and then conveniently ignores his own cautions about emotional stability.

Hell, I wouldn't want a lunatic like this anywhere near me, let alone children.

Originally Posted by Morden

The problem with 'self-defence' is the definition thereof. It seems, perhaps inevitably, to be vague and it's up to the person who claims that he was defending himself when he shot to prove self-defence. Doing so after the deed is fraught with risk.

It is up to the Jury to decide if "reasonable force" was used and is intentionally worded so that each case can be assessed independently. It is what the person claiming self-defence perceived as danger at the time and whether he was in full control at the time of the incident.

Catching someone in the act of stealing from your home is not grounds for killing someone on its own. The person could easily be held under the threat of a gun alone before the Police arrived. It may be that no action is better in some circumstances and the Police informed during/after the event.

Originally Posted by Troy

Originally Posted by Morden

The problem with 'self-defence' is the definition thereof. It seems, perhaps inevitably, to be vague and it's up to the person who claims that he was defending himself when he shot to prove self-defence. Doing so after the deed is fraught with risk.

It is up to the Jury to decide if "reasonable force" was used and is intentionally worded so that each case can be assessed independently. It is what the person claiming self-defence perceived as danger at the time and whether he was in full control at the time of the incident.

Catching someone in the act of stealing from your home is not grounds for killing someone on its own. The person could easily be held under the threat of a gun alone before the Police arrived. It may be that no action is better in some circumstances and the Police informed during/after the event.

Agreed, but your first sentence echoes the concern that I expressed. If you think you have to shoot in self-defence, your future liberty may depend on the whims of a jury. You make a snap decision the correctness of which may be rejected in Court.

Originally Posted by quimbian corholla

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

People like you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near guns nor children apparently

If I had children I wouldn't let them anywhere near Rick.

From this thread we know that he is armed, seems to enjoy watching snuff videos, has violent fantasies, believes 15% of humanity should be randomly selected for execution as a crime prevention measure, happily disregards the rule of law when it suits him, makes a list of ways to kill a child which are "not that hard" but which could equally apply to anybody who can be physically overwhelmed yet he specifies children and then conveniently ignores his own cautions about emotional stability.

Hell, I wouldn't want a lunatic like this anywhere near me, let alone children.

How very true . . . a picture paints a thousand words . . . and his musings write even more

Originally Posted by quimbian corholla

Originally Posted by Morden

Here's some information that my lead in the right direction:

I think that leeming isn't remotely interested in that, he is trying to derail the thread into another anti-muslim wank fest.

RickThai would not like that. His cause is the culling of the black hordes. Anyway, Rick, what do you feel when you see a picture like this?



Should Muslim women own guns for self protection, or is this a right to be restricted to Christians and Buddhists?

Originally Posted by Morden

Agreed, but your first sentence echoes the concern that I expressed. If you think you have to shoot in self-defence, your future liberty may depend on the whims of a jury. You make a snap decision the correctness of which may be rejected in Court.

Let's not forget that you have just killed someone. That killing has to be justified otherwise the law would lead to abuse. People like Rick Thai could invite you into their home and then shoot you as an intruder....

Originally Posted by Morden

Agreed, but your first sentence echoes the concern that I expressed. If you think you have to shoot in self-defence, your future liberty may depend on the whims of a jury. You make a snap decision the correctness of which may be rejected in Court.

Well you see morden, in the Uk and europe as a whole, we have this rather quaint that one of the fundamental rights of a citizen is that of life, And in the UK this is taken very seriously with no individual or organisation possessing the right to kill, only the right to use reasonable force. In this environment it seems perfectly reasonable that someone killing in self defence should have to put their case to a jury if there was the slightest doubt to their claim of reasonable force.

^I do believe that such an assassins charter exists in thailand regarding the killing of people on your home premises at night.

Originally Posted by Boon Mee

Especially those poor Indian & Egyptian women who keep getting raped when they step outside their doors:

Your newfound concern for rape victims is admirable considering that American "conservatives" generally don't think it's much of a big deal.

Below is the list of thirty legislators who were brave enough to stand up in defense of rape and vote against Senator Al Franken's anti-rape amendment to the 2010 Defense Appropriations bill.






Days Without a GOP Rape Mention

TX State Sen. GOP on blocking exemption for rape, incest: testimony amounted to people "making bad choices" and then "walk away from bad choices" July 11, 2013
TX State Rep. Laubenberg: "In the emergency room they have what's called rape kits where a woman can get cleaned out." June 24, 2013
Paul LePage Maine Governor Denounces Democratic Budget Using Anal Rape Joke June 20, 2013
Trent Franks GOP congressman: Rate of pregnancies from rape is ‘very low’ June 12, 2013
Saxby Chambliss Gee Whiz, Saxby Chambliss Actually Said 'Hormones' Turn Troops into Rapists June 4, 2013
John McCain John McCain: Women should avoid military service until sexual misconduct crisis solved June 4, 2013
Barbara Listing Anti-Choice Leader: Rape Is Like A Car Accident, So Women Should Buy ‘Extra Insurance’ For Abortion May 22, 2013
Brad Blakeman Fox News guest: Obama ‘encouraging’ statutory rape by supporting birth control May 3, 2013
TN State Rep. Tennessee Republican attacks ‘disgusting’ Humane Society over ‘tape and rape’ April 29, 2013
IL State Rep. Tom Morrison, Illinois State Rep, Compares Gay Marriage To Polygamy, Statutory Rape In E-mail April 12, 2013
Steven Crowder Steven Crowder: 'What Is This Obsession With Ashley Judd And Rape?' March 16, 2013
Phil Gingrey Gingrey: "Whereas Todd said the panic would cause a body to shut down, more recent data suggests just the opposite is probably true” March 11, 2013
Celeste Greig Leader of California Republican group steps into rape pregnancy controversy March 1, 2013
IA State Rep. Bill would define abortion as murder with no exceptions for rape, incest or to protect the life of the mother February 7, 2013
Steve King King tells radio host he would not disavow Akin's "legitimate rape" comment, claims he "knows nothing" of Akin's "theory" February 6, 2013
Personhood USA One of the country's most extreme anti-abortion groups is encouraging Republican politicians to keep talking about rape January 29, 2013
NM State Rep. New Mexico Bill Would Criminalize Abortions After Rape As 'Tampering With Evidence' January 23, 2013
Paul Ryan Paul Ryan Once Again Sponsors the Bill That Would Make It Possible for Women’s Rapists to Sue Them January 11, 2013
Phil Gingrey GOP Rep: Todd Akin ‘Partly Right’ On Legitimate Rape January 10, 2013
Charles Krauthammer Charles Krauthammer: Larger Sandy Relief Bill Was 'Rape Of The Treasury' January 5, 2013
Eric Cantor Cantor: Rape is less heinous to some women December 14, 2012
Michael Graham FOX News guest: OFA wanted to convince voters Romney would put women in “rape camps" November 8, 2012
Todd Akin Todd Akin Campaign Features Rape Victim In Ad Targeting Women November 1, 2012
John Koster Candidate says "rape thing" not cause for abortion October 31, 2012
Newt Gingrich Gingrich Defends Mourdock’s Rape Comments, Advising Women To ‘Get Over It’ October 28, 2012
KS State Sen. Steve Fitzgerald, Kansas 5th District hopeful, jokes about domestic violence October 26, 2012
Ron Christie Ron Christie on The Ed Show: women's issues, and particularly rape, are "small ball" October 25, 2012
Richard Mourdock Republican Senate Candidate: Conception From Rape ‘Is Something That God Intended’ October 23, 2012
Linda McMahon Linda McMahon invents a new kind of rape: 'emergency rape' October 17, 2012
PA House GOP Pennsylvania Bill Would Reduce Welfare Benefits For Women Who Cannot Prove They Were Raped October 17, 2012
WI State Rep. Rep. Roger Rivard criticized for 'some girls rape easy' remark October 10, 2012
Rick Berg October 10, 2010
Roscoe Bartlett Maryland Congressman Says ‘Few Pregnancies’ Result From Rape August 30, 2012
Republican Platform GOP Platform: Abortion Ban Approved By Republicans In Tampa, In All Cases August 28, 2012
Paul Ryan Paul Ryan: Rape Just Another Method Of Conception August 27, 2012
Tom Smith Tom Smith, GOP Senate Candidate: Pregnancy From Rape Similar To 'Having A Baby Out Of Wedlock' August 27, 2012
Paul Ryan Paul Ryan Is ‘Very Proud’ Of ‘Forcible Rape’ Bill He Co-Sponsored With Todd Akin August 23, 2012
Steve King Rep. Steve King: I’ve Never Heard Of A Girl Getting Pregnant From Statutory Rape Or Incest August 21, 2012
Sharon Barnes GOP official says God chooses to bless raped women with pregnancy August 21, 2012
Todd Akin Republican Senate Nominee: Victims Of ‘Legitimate Rape’ Don’t Get Pregnant August 19, 2012
Nikki Haley Haley Blasted for Calling Rape Crisis Centers 'Special Interests' July 17, 2012
Nikki Haley Nikki Haley Calls Battered And Raped Women ‘Distractions,’ Vetoes Legislation July 10, 2012
IN State Rep. Indiana Republican: Women May Fake Rape To Get An Abortion March 31, 2012
PA State Rep. Rape victims to report the crime within 72 hours in order to receive an abortion March 29, 2012
ID State Sen. Silly Ladies Don’t Know What Rape Is, Suggests Idaho Legislator March 20, 2012
Ron Paul Ron Paul Generously Offers Victims of ‘Honest Rape’ the Right to Abortion February 6, 2012
Rick Santorum Rape victims should 'make the best of a bad situation' if they get pregnant and give birth to the 'gift from God' January 24, 2012
MA State Rep. Massachusetts Republican: Undocumented Immigrant Rape Victims ‘Should Be Afraid To Come Forward’ June 9, 2011
KS State Sen. Rep. Pete DeGraaf: Being Impregnated During a Rape Is Just Like Getting a Flat Tire May 24, 2011
House GOP GOP Bill Would Force IRS to Conduct Abortion Audits March 18, 2011
FL State Rep. Republican lawmaker blames 11-year-old victim of alleged gang rape March 16, 2011
GA State Rep. Georgia Republican’s bill would reclassify rape victims as ‘accusers’ February 5, 2011
House GOP The House GOP's Plan to Redefine Rape January 28, 2011
Nathan Deal Deal targeted Rape Shield October 15, 2010
Ken Buck Buck Accuses Rape Victim of Just Having "Buyer's Remorse" October 11, 2010
Sharron Angle Sharron Angle's Advice For Rape Victims Considering Abortion: Turn Lemons Into Lemonade July 8, 2010
Dennis Nolan Republican Senator blames 16-year-old rape victim June 6, 2010
Senate GOP Meet The Senators Who Voted Against The Franken Amendment March 18, 2010
KS State Rep. Kansas lawmaker compares rape to auto theft February 18, 2010
Scott Brown Why Does Republican Senate Candidate Scott Brown Hate Rape Victims? January 13, 2010
Sam Brownback Brownback Questions Abortion for Rape Victims in Speech to Catholic Men's Conference June 10, 2007
Kerry Healey Exploiting female voters’ fear of rape October 20, 2006
SD State Rep. ‘Rape and incest’ is a buzzword April 20, 2006
SD State Rep. Napoli: "religious virgin" "brutally and savagely raped, murdered" rant March 5, 2006
UT Sen. GOP Senate: Incestuous dad knows best February 28, 2006
Bill Owens Republicans united behind Gov. Bill Owens to make sure his "emergency contraception for rape" veto stood May 3, 2005
AZ State Rep. Arizona Republicans in favor of spousal rape March 11, 2005
Grover Norquist Norquist: "Bipartisanship is another name for date rape" December 15, 2003
VA State Del. What Is It With Loudoun Republicans?!? Dick Black on Spousal Rape, "Nighties" February 7, 2002
Fay Boozman Candidate: rare for women to get pregnant during rape because their fear triggered hormonal changes that blocked conception October 29, 1998
Dan Webster Webster has said that he opposes abortion in all cases, including cases of rape or incest November 17, 1996
Henry Aldridge Lawmaker Says Rape Can't Cause Pregnancy April 21, 1995
Todd Akin Akin voted for an anti-marital-rape law, questioned use “in a real messy divorce as a tool and a legal weapon to beat up on the husband” May 1, 1991
Clayton Williams Texas Candidate's Comment About Rape Causes a Furor March 26, 1990
Bobby Knight Knight: "I think that if rape is inevitable, relax and enjoy it" April 25, 1988
PA State Rep. Freind's Rape-pregnancy Theory Refuted March 23, 1988


The Top 5 Quotes About Rape from Republican Men


1. Todd Akin: “If it’s a legitimate rape, the female body has ways of shutting that whole thing down" - mid 2012 Senate Campaign
2. Clayton Williams: “If it’s inevitable, just relax and enjoy it" - mid 1990 Gubernatorial race in Texas
3. Chuck Winder: "I would hope that when a woman goes in to a physician with a rape issue, that physician will indeed ask her about perhaps her marriage, was this pregnancy caused by normal relations in a marriage or was it truly caused by a rape. I assume that’s part of the counseling that goes on." - March 2012
4. Ken Buck: “A jury could very well conclude that this is a case of buyer’s remorse … It appears to me … you invited him over… the appearance is of consent.” - October 2010
5. Rick Santorum: "I think the right approach is to accept this horribly created — in the sense of rape — but nevertheless a gift in a very broken way, the gift of human life, and accept what God has given to you… rape victims should make the best of a bad situation.” - January, 2012



"In the emergency room they have what’s called rape kits, where a woman can get cleaned out," said state Rep. Jodie Laubenberg (R), sponsor of the controversial SB 5, according to The Associated Press.

As HuffPost blogger Soraya Chemaly notes, that's not the function of rape kits, typically administered to collect evidence of sexual assault. Not even close, PolitiFact Texas reports, giving Laubenberg's remark a "pants on fire" rating.

Bonus:

I just struggled with it myself for a long time but I came to realize life is that gift from God that I think even if life begins in that horrible situation of rape, that it is something that God intended to happen. ~ Richard Mourdock (R)

^Surely it be be Pakistani MP's your quoting there GC after all good Christian american types would never say stuff like that; they recon to be civilized

Originally Posted by hazz

^Surely it be be Pakistani MP's your quoting there GC after all good Christian american types would never say stuff like that; they recon to be civilized

What Islam Says About Rape

Question: What Does Islam Say About Rape?
In Islam, what is the law and the punishment for committing rape?
Answer: Rape is completely forbidden in Islam, and is a crime punishable by death. In Islam, capital punishment is reserved for the most extreme crimes which harm individual victims or destablize society. Rape falls into both of these categories.


(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)
As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.

(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

Death for rape victims too!

(Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB)

If within the city a man comes upon a maiden who is betrothed, and has relations with her, you shall bring them both out of the gate of the city and there stone them to death: the girl because she did not cry out for help though she was in the city, and the man because he violated his neighbors wife.

(2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB)

Thus says the Lord: 'I will bring evil upon you out of your own house. I will take your wives [plural] while you live to see it, and will give them to your neighbor. He shall lie with your wives in broad daylight. You have done this deed in secret, but I will bring it about in the presence of all Israel, and with the sun looking down.'
Then David said to Nathan, "I have sinned against the Lord." Nathan answered David: "The Lord on his part has forgiven your sin: you shall not die. But since you have utterly spurned the Lord by this deed, the child born to you must surely die." [The child dies seven days later.]

(Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB)

"When you go out to war against your enemies and the LORD, your God, delivers them into your hand, so that you take captives, if you see a comely woman among the captives and become so enamored of her that you wish to have her as wife, you may take her home to your house. But before she may live there, she must shave her head and pare her nails and lay aside her captive's garb. After she has mourned her father and mother for a full month, you may have relations with her, and you shall be her husband and she shall be your wife.

(Judges 5:30 NAB)

They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil

(Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB)

Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.

^ What has this got to do with anything? Puking up bible passages willy-nilly without any effort at using them to explain a point is banality.

No problem with owning guns myself but I do think that a person who maliciously or foolishly uses a gun to kill another person should forfeit a lot if not all of their wealth including property to the victim's family. Prison time is not enough for murderers or stupid people who let their kid play around with a gun killing the neighbors kid. Have a gun but you better be darn sure that you are using it on the right person. Taking the wrong life is worth all you have. I'll add to that a gun owner whose weapon is stolen and used in a crime should also be required to contribute to the victims of those crimes. Gun ownership should mean responsibility beyond the norm.

Seven killed in Florida hostage siege lasting hours


The stand-off with police came to an end in the early hours of Saturday


A gunman holding hostages in a building near Miami in the US state of Florida killed six people before being shot dead by police, officials say.

Officers stormed the block of flats in Hialeah, north of Miami, on Saturday morning after a stand-off lasting several hours.

Two hostages were freed unharmed, police said.

Five of the victims were found inside the complex - another man was killed while walking across a street outside.

Police said an argument had broken out between the couple who ran the building and the suspected gunman, who is thought to have been a tenant. The landlords were among those killed.

Police were called after shots were fired shortly before 18:30 local time (20:30 GMT) on Friday.

They found the gunman had barricaded himself in an apartment on the fifth floor, and taken two people hostage.

Police moved in after almost eight hours of negotiations, local media said.

"They made the decision to go in there and save and rescue the hostages," Sgt Eddie Rodriguez told the Associated Press.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23476888


Perhaps too early to say how this fatal encounter developed although laws permitting easy access to firearms probably played it's part somewhere along the line.

Originally Posted by Troy

^ What has this got to do with anything? Puking up bible passages willy-nilly without any effort at using them to explain a point is banality.

I thought it was quite self explanatory, but you obviously need it clarified:

Most of the cretins that came out with these retarded comments on rape are Jesus Wheezers.

Originally Posted by hazz

Originally Posted by Morden

Agreed, but your first sentence echoes the concern that I expressed. If you think you have to shoot in self-defence, your future liberty may depend on the whims of a jury. You make a snap decision the correctness of which may be rejected in Court.

Well you see morden, in the Uk and europe as a whole, we have this rather quaint that one of the fundamental rights of a citizen is that of life, And in the UK this is taken very seriously with no individual or organisation possessing the right to kill, only the right to use reasonable force. In this environment it seems perfectly reasonable that someone killing in self defence should have to put their case to a jury if there was the slightest doubt to their claim of reasonable force.

^I do believe that such an assassins charter exists in thailand regarding the killing of people on your home premises at night.

I see. So, you might call the UK the Land of the Free - to go to the shops without the need to look like a lost Vietnam soldier or any significant risk of being gunned down. Parts of the US, on the other hand, see to be the land the Free to get shot in a cinema or shot into small pieces at school.

Thank goodness that the British Crown is no longer responsible for that piece of territory.

My understanding of Thai law regarding self defence at home is that you should match you weapon to that of the attacker. That could be a time consuming and fatal few seconds in practice. I suppose it means don't blast his head off when he's has no weapon of his own.

Originally Posted by quimbian corholla

Originally Posted by OckerRocker

People like you shouldn't be allowed anywhere near guns nor children apparently

If I had children I wouldn't let them anywhere near Rick.

From this thread we know that he is armed, seems to enjoy watching snuff videos, has violent fantasies, believes 15% of humanity should be randomly selected for execution as a crime prevention measure, happily disregards the rule of law when it suits him, makes a list of ways to kill a child which are "not that hard" but which could equally apply to anybody who can be physically overwhelmed yet he specifies children and then conveniently ignores his own cautions about emotional stability.

Hell, I wouldn't want a lunatic like this anywhere near me, let alone children.

There is a chance RickThai is a smart man who uses satire to make the case why citizens should not own guns, because they land in the hands of lunatics. If so, mission accomplished.

Originally Posted by RickThai

moniker "Bill the Kid".

small case so billy the kid,, who is usually a peaceful sheep who stopped carryin guns when he was 13.
now i simply take the piss out of Buddhists or mussies or catholics or whatever.

Originally Posted by Rainfall

There is a chance RickThai is a smart man who uses satire to make the case why citizens should not own guns, because they land in the hands of lunatics. If so, mission accomplished.

That is like saying Fluke, leemo and/or piwanoi are the same

Indeed...

Why you asking, Booner? Have to make the country again?

Originally Posted by Rainfall

Why you asking, Booner? Have to make the country again?

You ascared of guns?

Mebe only the Stasi should be allowed to have firearms?

Maybe the NSA should allow you freedom of thought and expression. Or at least the boss of the corporation you are with. It's a great feeling of safety when no one has a gun, and one doesn't have to waste any money on this shit.