The Gun Issue thread

[slackula]

The fact that US immigration laws are being ignored by almost every level of government up to and including the presidency

Where are you getting your news from?

As of July, Obama deported 1.4 million illegal immigrants since the beginning of his administration — that’s 1.5 times more immigrants on average than Bush deported every month

Obama is deporting immigrants faster than Bush. Republicans don’t think that’s enough.

Although President Obama supports setting a path to citizenship for many illegal immigrants, his administration deported a record 1.5 million of them in his first term.

In addition, the released by the government in recent days show that an unprecedented 409,849 people were deported for the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30.

Obama Administration Deported Record 1.5 Million People : It's All Politics : NPR

As ABC news reported in December: "Since 2009, the annual average number of deportations has approached 400,000, according to the Department of Homeland Security. That’s double the annual average during President George W. Bush’s first term and 30 percent higher than the average when he left office."

Deportations Doubled Under Obama | The Weekly Standard

Even worse when a state such as Arizona tries to enforce the laws, and the Feds step in and prevent them.

that was the SCOTUS..

"Arizona may have understandable frustrations with the problems caused by illegal immigration while that process continues, but the state may not pursue policies that undermined federal law," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in the majority opinion.

Seriously Ricky, if you are going to throw out wild claims then at least make some token effort to base them in reality.

[RickThai]

The fact that US immigration laws are being ignored by almost every level of government up to and including the presidency

Where are you getting your news from?

As of July, Obama deported 1.4 million illegal immigrants since the beginning of his administration — that’s 1.5 times more immigrants on average than Bush deported every month

Obama is deporting immigrants faster than Bush. Republicans don’t think that’s enough.

Although President Obama supports setting a path to citizenship for many illegal immigrants, his administration deported a record 1.5 million of them in his first term.

In addition, the released by the government in recent days show that an unprecedented 409,849 people were deported for the fiscal year that ended Sept. 30.

Obama Administration Deported Record 1.5 Million People : It's All Politics : NPR

As ABC news reported in December: "Since 2009, the annual average number of deportations has approached 400,000, according to the Department of Homeland Security. That’s double the annual average during President George W. Bush’s first term and 30 percent higher than the average when he left office."

Deportations Doubled Under Obama | The Weekly Standard

Even worse when a state such as Arizona tries to enforce the laws, and the Feds step in and prevent them.

that was the SCOTUS..

"Arizona may have understandable frustrations with the problems caused by illegal immigration while that process continues, but the state may not pursue policies that undermined federal law," Justice Anthony Kennedy wrote in the majority opinion.

Seriously Ricky, if you are going to throw out wild claims then at least make some token effort to base them in reality.

Didn't Obama just ordet the release of several thousand illegals that were being detained prior to deportation? Seems like he wasn't really interested in the current immigration laws.

As for Arizona, exactly how was their "get tough" policy undermining Federal law? Most states have laws against drugs that supplement federal drug laws and I've never heard of a supreme court judge (or a President) trying to suppress those laws. And who does the SCOTUS work for?

Supreme court justices are so partisan that their opinions have little to do with law or precedent, but are simply made along party lines.

RickThai

[RickThai]

introduce legislature to toughen up sentencing for violent offenders

FFS- you have more people in jail than any nation on earth, even China with about four times your population. But at least your massive jailbird population are living in the land of the free.

So much for the "progressives" impact on our society.

I agree- copy the conservative Eisenhower model. Go back to a time when government could finance itself, and do it's job. Leave the rest of the world alone, while you sort out your own not inconsiderable problems. If yer can't even get it right in your home, don't tell us what to do in our home.

The reason the US has so many people in jail, is because no body respects the Rule of Law. As it is, only the most violent and flagrant offenders serve any real time. Most felons commit dozens of increasingly serious crimes before they do any real hard time.

Liberal judges and DAs use any excuse they can for giving probation rather than prison time. That may change as felons are starting to target judges and DAs for murder upon their early releases.
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[hazz]

I think you will find that the US has a large prison population because

The US sentience people committing non-violent crimes to prison when most other 1st world countries would look at non custodial alternatives

The US does not put much effort in helping people avoid committing crime, which is why the US has one of, if not the, highest rates of child abuse... as the US treats this as a crime that needs punishing, whilst other contries see this as something that can be avoided with state intervention before a crime has been commited.

The US has lots of guns, which lead to quite possibly the highest murder rate in the US... manufacturing 1000's if not 10,000's of long term prisoners

Then you have long punitive sentencing for many offenses, the three strikes being the most egregious

This leads to a very rapidly growing prison population and if one compares the UK to the US; its a policy which does not seem to make much impact on the rates of crime. But then thats not why the US does this, its done because it plays well with the voters and it makes a lot of money for those companies involved in maintaining and providing your prison infrastructure. And its comapnies like these who own the politician's in washington represent... because they know the consequences of going against cooperate interests will be at the next election

[slackula]

Didn't Obama just ordet the release of several thousand illegals that were being detained prior to deportation? Seems like he wasn't really interested in the current immigration laws.

You made a statement without providing any citation, link or support to back it up and when it is shown to be factually incorrect you double down and do the same thing again.

There is little point in reading anything you write if it is all going to be wildly inaccurate claims that you pull out of your arse.

[MrG]

I know this is a gun thread, but it seems to have strayed (again) to a related issue. If prison creates hardened criminals out of minor ones, shouldn't we want a non-private prison system that is motivated to create less criminals who may want guns?

"The dominant argument for private prisons is that they will save taxpayers money, as for-profit owners have an incentive to seek efficiencies bureaucrats overseeing government institutions lack. Anyway, that's the theory. According to the Arizona Republic, the reality is that private prisons in the Grand Canyon State so far cost more on a per-prisoner basis than do public institutions. Some experts contend that firms in the prison business reap profits by billing government for rather more than their initial lowball estimates while scrimping in ways that may make prisons less secure.
"From an economic point of view, we should expect firms that compete for and rely on government contracts, such as weapons manufacturers and prison operators, to maximise the spread between the amount billed and the actual cost of delivering the service. If contractors can get away with providing less value for money than would the government-run alternative, they will. Moreover, contractors have every incentive to make themselves seem necessary. It is well-known that public prison employee unions constitute a powerful constituency for tough sentencing policies that lead to larger prison populations requiring additional prisons and personnel. The great hazard of contracting out incarceration "services" is that private firms may well turn out to be even more efficient and effective than unions in lobbying for policies that would increase prison populations....
"When we add to the mix the observations that America alreadyputs a larger proportion of its population behind bars than does any other country (often for acts that ought to be legal), and that the US already spends an insane portion of national income on the largely non-productive garrison state, it is hard to see the expansion of a for-profit industry with a permanent interest in putting ever more people in cages as consistent with either efficiency or justice.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2010/08/private_prisons

[sabang]

How does the US Justice system get away with being so overtly racist?
Crackas like snow, niggaz prefer crack- it's the same drug, either snorted or smoked.
But the penalties for possession of crack are much higher- and the white Judge probably does white lines in his spare time. Most people I knew did over there.
If there was some case to be made that tough justice brought down the crime rate, you could at least make some argument for it. But there isn't, and in typical US style those arguing most vociferously for racially biased 'tough love' are the ones making money from it, such as private prison operators.
It's all well and good to wear your flag on your sleeve, but when the shit hits the fan it seems to me that many amerkins view their country as nothing more than a business opportunity. Every man for himself, white against black, rich against poor. I make money selling guns, fuck the consequences- "A man has got the right to carry a bazooka, ra ra". What happened to the Social Contract, what happened to 'We're all in this boat together'?

[sabang]

Adolphus Busch IV, heir to the Busch family brewing fortune, resigned his lifetime membership in the National Rifle Association on Thursday, writing in a letter to NRA President David Keene, "I fail to see how the NRA can disregard the overwhelming will of its members who see background checks as reasonable."

.... "One only has to look at the makeup of the 75-member board of directors, dominated by manufacturing interests, to confirm my point. The NRA appears to have evolved into the lobby for gun and ammunition manufacturers rather than gun owners,"
Adolphus Busch IV Resigns From NRA After Gun Control Defeat In Senate

Fair enough, but the NRA is a private members club- albeit run by and working for gun makers, rather than gun owners. The same blatant ignorance of constituents wishes has been shown by the US government- and this is a massive, massive scandal. Which is why you are not reading about it in the media.

No matter how it's politicians are appointed, a country in which those politicians have carte blanche to ignore the stated wishes of 90% of their constituents can not rationally be defined as a democracy.

[Mr Earl]

The reason the bill didn't pass was largely because the focus is mainly on law abiding normal people, with little or no attention to the problem of actually keeping firearms out of the hands of criminal and mental defectives.
There were no provisions for enforcing tough mandatory sentences for carrying or possessing unregistered firearms.
The burden was placed entirely on the law abiding citizen and utterly failed to address criminals and mental defectives. That's why it failed. And the NRA is failing miserably by not getting this message out and allowing the organization to be marginalized by liberal media and dipshits like Adolph Butsch.

There should be national firearms registry but with regard to catching criminals and nut-jobs not simply constraining normal citizens.

[MrG]

it seems to me that many amerkins view their country as nothing more than a business opportunity. Every man for himself, white against black, rich against poor. I make money selling guns, fuck the consequences- "A man has got the right to carry a bazooka, ra ra". What happened to the Social Contract, what happened to 'We're all in this boat together'?

"The business of America is business."
A statement made by President Calvin Coolidge in the 1920s.
Coolidge's words are often mentioned as typical of the overconfidence in the American economy that preceded the Great Depression.
Read more: The business of America is business: Definition from Answers.com

Interesting to note that Coolidge was pre New Deal, a program designed to deal with the problems he and Hoover left behind by giving teeth to whatever wisp of social contract there was at the time. Hence, the present ongoing attempt to dismantle it a la Ayn Rand. There is no social contract when one of the major players--private industry--is not on the team. Corporations are like nations unto themselves, but instead of going to war with a country, they buy it. One Congressman at a time. The gun industry and NRA are no different.

We saw a brief display of "we're all in this boat together" when the neighbors cheered the cops after the Boston Marathon Bomber was chased down and caught. The MSM will be playing it up, making speeches and getting ra-ra and weepy-eyed over the footage, but, sad to say, it's really smoke and diversion from the real issues they won't give even a fraction of the time to.

[Norton]

"The business of America is business."

Has always been and continues to this day. Influencing politicians and receiving favors not new. An interesting series.

The Men Who Built America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[MrG]

"The business of America is business."

Has always been and continues to this day. Influencing politicians and receiving favors not new. An interesting series.

The Men Who Built America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I haven't looked at the series, but I will.
In the meantime, I couldn't help but notice the word "...Built..." in that link above. Influencing public policy in order to build things is one thing. I don't think that quaint spirit is alive these days.

[Mr Earl]

"The business of America is business."

Has always been and continues to this day. Influencing politicians and receiving favors not new. An interesting series.

The Men Who Built America - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I haven't looked at the series, but I will.
In the meantime, I couldn't help but notice the word "...Built..." in that link above. Influencing public policy in order to build things is one thing. I don't think that quaint spirit is alive these days.

Ya kinda got that right, the spirit nowadays is; "Give what you got, because I'm entitled".

[sabang]

The reason the bill didn't pass was largely because the focus is mainly on law abiding normal people,

Wrong. The reason the law didn't pass is because the Lobbys with access, that buy and sell for your piss poor politicians, said No.

And why would law abiding normal citizens fear background checks, before buying a deadly weapon? 90% of Americans don't seem to think thats a problem- but your sick government apparently does.

[Mr Earl]

The reason the bill didn't pass was largely because the focus is mainly on law abiding normal people,

Wrong. The reason the law didn't pass is because the Lobbys with access, that buy and sell for your piss poor politicians, said No.

And why would law abiding normal citizens fear background checks, before buying a deadly weapon? 90% of Americans don't seem to think thats a problem- but your sick government apparently does.

The problem the bill it is for practical purposes toothless and absolutely failed to address the issue of criminals and nut jobs with guns. All it does throw a tiny little bandaid on giant problem.
Hampering law abiding citizens from aquiring firearms is not going even begin to address the issue.
There's no way you can make 300 million firearms disapear. If history is any precendent any stop-gap knee jerk window dressing legislation by government will make the problem worse not better.

The focus needs to be on the people who have guns and thier responsibilties for the safety of said firearms. Blathering away about assault weapons, magazine capacities serves no purpose other than hightening the level of emoting.
The dialogue should be about making it easier for the responsible citizen to have a CCP and recieve the appropriate training. The dialogue also must address enforcing severe penalties for those miscreants who fail to follow the code of resposible firearms useage. The current system coddles criminals and mental defectives.

[Mid]

The current system coddles criminals and mental defectives.

The current system allows slaughter of children .

[Mr Earl]

The current system coddles criminals and mental defectives.

The current system allows slaughter of children .

Further spurious emoting I'm sorry to observe.

The system left the children unprotected. What did the "Gun Free Zone" accomplish other than leave them open prey for psycopaths!
Clearly the government is incapable, so the capable citizen must step in. Bring on Chuck Norris style personal defense training for all.
CCP for all teachers along with mantatory military training.

[piwanoi]

The current system coddles criminals and mental defectives.

The current system allows slaughter of children .

Does the current system allow Children to be "groomed and brainwashed" into becoming suicide bombers?

[Chico the Fox]

Shits and giggles

US gun laws working fine apart from the occasional rampage, say senators



THE US Senate has decide that its existing gun laws are functioning well except for the odd murder spree.

Senators blocked a plan for background checks on people purchasing guns, claiming that weapons buyers only went on deadly rampages very infrequently.

Pro-gun senator Tom Logan said: “If you look at all the people who buy weapons in American every year, the percentage that then goes into a school or restaurant and indiscriminately opens fire is really very small.

“Certainly it’s not large enough that we need the extra bureaucracy of checking whether someone’s seriously mentally ill before handing them a rifle and as many bullets as they fancy.

“I mean, if you had a pie chart called ‘What American people who buy guns do with them’ the segment labelled ‘Murders’ would be almost invisible.

“Certainly small enough that if it were a slice of pizza it would not satisfy as a main meal.”

Logan then added some standard general bullshit about freedom, which a lot of people in America seem to lap up.

Plans for a ban on assault weapons had already been removed from the gun-control bill, because simply wanting to own an assault rifle means that you must be a sane and balanced individual.

[Mid]

The current system coddles criminals and mental defectives.

The current system allows slaughter of children .

Further spurious emoting I'm sorry to observe.

The system left the children unprotected. What did the "Gun Free Zone" accomplish other than leave them open prey for psycopaths!
Clearly the government is incapable, so the capable citizen must step in. Bring on Chuck Norris style personal defense training for all.
CCP for all teachers along with mantatory military training.

Yes indeed , silly me what was I thinking ?

More Guns for ALL Americans is the answer .

[Mr Earl]

The current system coddles criminals and mental defectives.

The current system allows slaughter of children .

Further spurious emoting I'm sorry to observe.

The system left the children unprotected. What did the "Gun Free Zone" accomplish other than leave them open prey for psycopaths!
Clearly the government is incapable, so the capable citizen must step in. Bring on Chuck Norris style personal defense training for all.
CCP for all teachers along with mantatory military training.

Yes indeed , silly me what was I thinking ?

More Guns for ALL Americans is the answer .

You are absolutely correct, because it is situations like this that are proof positive the government cannot be trusted. These local security issues must be handled locally and state by state.
The Federal mandated "Gun Free Zone" proved to be ludecrous.
With so many firearms out there already it is trully up to each individual to behave responsibly or face the consequences.
Trouble is; with an ineffective judiciary and soft penal system the consequences aren't very stiff.
And to top it off with a sensation hungry media they make these wack-jobs famous.
Nope the punishment for these psycopaths should be a cage placed over thier heads and let hungry rats eat thier eyeballs out better yet take some pages from Vlad the Impaler! Broadcast live on pay per view in LasVegas.
that be the way it aughta be.

[Mid]

Now I know you are deranged .

[Mr Earl]

Now I know you are deranged .

What is deranged is a society that produces and coddles monsters who murder little children, and people who gleefully exploit these horrible tragedies to further a totalitarian agenda.
That is monstrous!

[hazz]

^^No he's just a tea buggerer who's outsourced his mind to tea part central... who then sold it off to the gun manufactures.

The senate voted for the gun industry; knowing that if they did vote for the background checking, they would loose campaign contributions from the industry and that tea party central would send out the automatons like earl and boonmee would be prepped to make their reelection as hard as possible. They simply valued their continued access to the pig trough of washington over and above doing the right thing.

[Mr Earl]

^^No he's just a tea buggerer who's outsourced his mind to tea part central... who then sold it off to the gun manufactures.

Actually my political beliefs lean towards hard core Libertarian. More government is not the answer, and more often than not government is the problem or makes it worse.

As far as the gun industry is concerned Obama is the best that ever happened to them. The transparent attempt to exploit the horrible tragedy of Sandy Hook with ill concieved legislation was like mana from heaven for gun makers.
The administration's attempt to exploit the emotion of those poor families who lost thier children was nothing but abhorent.
The Obama team can be very proud, more firearms on the streets than ever and nothing to discourage deranged psycopaths from seeking thier 15 minutes of fame, bravo!