The Gun Issue thread

[rickschoppers]

Chass, your logic may be sound, but putting it into reality is a different story. What may seem simple to outsiders, is not so simple to people living in the US. Why don't you take a poll to see how many Americans would be willing to waive their personal medical privacy to own a gun? Maybe it makes perfect sense to you, but a different story when you are the one signing the waiver.

But please, don't let me deter you from taking that poll. Are you willing to give up any of your personal rights from your home country if it means reducing violent deaths? Not a bad idea Chass, but not realistic.

[chassamui]

You never know until you ask. A poll would be more useful than a pole, but it's not my country. I proffer suggestions, and you refute them without merit or consideration.
Up to you.

[rickschoppers]

Yes a POLL might be a good idea. Chass, you do make some valid points and I am merely playing the other side. If you think I am resisting, what do you think the American public would do?

Nobody likes their rights taken away, especially when so many have been removed before by law or the government. The US is way over regulated as it is and there are many ready to revolt if more rights are taken away.

[MrG]

Since it touches on health care, things are a little more complicated. If you think dealing with political will is easy, try dealing with the myriad of health care regulations and regulatory agencies. A real nightmare.

I have dealt with HIPPA for almost 30 years. It is difficult. It is not impossible to alter. Or do we just throw up our hands and say some poor bastards are going to get killed every couple of weeks by somebody with guns he shouldn't have.

[MrG]

Nobody likes their rights taken away, especially when so many have been removed before by law or the government. The US is way over regulated as it is and there are many ready to revolt if more rights are taken away.

Last poll I heard: 85 % of the American public agree therer needs to be some kind of gun control.
65% of NRA members agree.

The gun laws are written by the gun lobby and their owned Congressmen for the industry, not the American people. We have very few representatives we can call our own.

[chassamui]

Nobody likes their rights taken away, especially when so many have been removed before by law or the government. The US is way over regulated as it is and there are many ready to revolt if more rights are taken away. rickschoppers is offline

Nobody is taking your rights away. If you want to owna gun, you waive access to your records to prove you are psychologically suitable for gun ownership.
No one takes anything away. You waive the rights if you think gun ownership is more important than the waiver. It's called choice.

[hazz]

the problem seems to be that a lot of Americans use tv sound bites to decide what they want to believe. Do you really think your politicians would spend so much money on advertising soundbites during elections unless they had too?

And once they had decided what they want to believe, no amount of evidence will a bit of evidence. just look the games plaid on this thread, any excuse. that look amrica's big therefore your comparasons with oz and uk are invalid. a school boy could punch holes in that argument, but our grown up american boys cannot.

At the end of the day the 'its nutters with guns that are the problem' is a distraction, and its not going to happen, simply because the NRA will fight any kind of gun laws... particularly ones that would affect their boss with his history of mental illness and the Scientologist's who have a thing about mental illness in general. together they will fund a massive soundbit campaign and convince enough Americans its the wrong thing to do that no politician will do a thing out of pure self interest.

Now I and i suspect that most of us who thing that the us is crasy with guns do believe its a issue for each society. outside the US, we do not think that the price of having guns in public places or casually lying around homes is worth the cost in lives.

what staggers us is the complete bollocks you belive to convince your selves it is worth the cost.

you need gun's to protect yourself from tyrannical government, didn't work out for the citizens south when they wanted to leave the union did it. what makes you think it would work now?

you are convinced that america does not have a problem. It does when compared to developed nations... a massive difference in death rates both homicide and suicide. so you compare yourself to the 15 moth violent third world and failed state countries in the world and see look no problem.... any other circumstances you would be offended to be compared to these countries.

then we have the criminals will kill us all, we will not be safe at home, we will not be safe walking the road..... Why would these issues be a problem in the US when its not been a problem in any of your peer countries?

And you never once ask yourselves, if its true that guns save lives, why the the gun industry and NRA systematically sponsored laws and funding cuts to ensure that nobody researches the issue and finds out what the truth is. After all if there is any truth to the sound bits coming from the NFA and the arms industry... the results of this research would help them.... so why kill it off?

you chaps need to learn that if its on the telly or in a sound bit its not necessarily true. then you might learn to think about your politics with the effort you put into football and get some decent politicians and have a democracy rather than a roman republic, you know a plutocracy (look it up on google)

[rickschoppers]

Funny, I was thinking the same when it comes to arguments posted by you lot. TV sound bites, newspaper snippits, Fox news, CNN, etc. must be your only real facts when most of you are not US citizens.

A total different perspective when none of you are in America and living it.

No games "plaid" on this thread as you say. You really need to learn how to spell and write before making an argument. You just prove your ignorance by posting tripe as scribbled above.

[AntRobertson]

Are you willing to give up any of your personal rights from your home country if it means reducing violent deaths? Not a bad idea Chass, but not realistic.

Do you recollect what happened in the aftermath of 9/11?

[rickschoppers]

Sure do, but I thought this was a Gun Issue thread.

[AntRobertson]

Sure do, but I thought this was a Gun Issue thread.

'Tis but it's relevant to your comment about abrogating personal rights.

Thousands less die from terrorism in the U.S. yet were prefectly happy to Patriot Act their rights away.

[hazz]

^^hardly trip dear boy.

The citizens of the south were forced t stay in the union despite their 2nd amendment right.

your saying that america's homicide and suicide rates are not significantly higher than any other developed nation.

your saying that the effecting banning of gun safety research in the US by the NRA and arms industry is not grounds for wondering why they would want to bann something that would enhance their message to the american people?

[rickschoppers]

Sure do, but I thought this was a Gun Issue thread.

'Tis but it's relevant to your comment about abrogating personal rights.

Thousands less die from terrorism in the U.S. yet were prefectly happy to Patriot Act their rights away.

C'mon Ant, poor analogy. You can do better than that.

[AntRobertson]

C'mon Ant, poor analogy. You can do better than that.

How so? I think it's perfectly apt:

Terrorism = loss of lives; perfectly happy to give up rights to prevent it
Guns = loss of many more lives; somehow giving up rights to prevent it is unrealistic

[rickschoppers]

Who are you talking to Hazz? YOU talking to me? You TALKING to me? You talking TO me? You talking to ME?

[rickschoppers]

Ant, how many Americans have you asked if they are "perfectly happy" to give up any rights with regard to the Patriot Act? They were not given away, in fact they were taken away without vote or conversation. What do you think the result would be if the government tried to do the same with gun rights?

So not a good analogy.

[harrybarracuda]

Funny, I was thinking the same when it comes to arguments posted by you lot. TV sound bites, newspaper snippits, Fox news, CNN, etc. must be your only real facts when most of you are not US citizens.

A total different perspective when none of you are in America and living it.

No games "plaid" on this thread as you say. You really need to learn how to spell and write before making an argument. You just prove your ignorance by posting tripe as scribbled above.

I would have thought you'd be in favour of people watching Focks News, they drool and drag their knuckles and grunt anytime anyone dares to mention gun laws.

[AntRobertson]

So not a good analogy.

Well it isn't when you deliberately twist it like that. Don't forget that it was your point that giving up personal rights to reduce violent deaths is not realistic.

The fact remains that it is realistic and it has happened: one act of terrorism on U.S. soil and rights were abrogated; shooting after shooting after shooting... Nada.

[rickschoppers]

Yes, that was my point, and that is relevant to your analogy how? How did I twist anything? Just stating fact.

Yes, if the government wants to take away any gun rights, then let them try. Just remind me to not be in the US when that happens.

[rickschoppers]

Ant, you are one of the most level headed debaters on this thread and I respect that. I do agree with much of what you say, but I also realize it will be an uphill battle. I am just trying to point that out.

[AntRobertson]

Yes, that was my point, and that is relevant to your analogy how?

Because your point fails to account for the fact that rights have actually been taken away to prevent violent deaths. Very clearly it is realistic because it has happened.

[AntRobertson]

but I also realize it will be an uphill battle. I am just trying to point that out.

OK, that I definitely agree on. It's about political will mostly and it simply isn't there for gun control (for myriad reasons).

Hope you're prepared for the deluge of red repos for calling me level-headed though!

That's not gonna go down well in some quarters.

[rickschoppers]

Operative words TAKEN AWAY. How do you think the American public will react when one of their Constitutional rights IS taken away, or anything close to gun rights?

Last I heard, protecting the county from terrorosts is not attached to any Constitutional rights. Those rights were TAKEN away. The same can not be done to a Constitutonal right, or what is seen as a Constitutional right.

So again, poor analogy. Pick something else.

[AntRobertson]

So again, poor analogy. Pick something else.

Nah, I'm sticking with it. We will have to agree to disagree on its aptness(?).

The only difference that I can see (that matters) is the absence of political will as I mentioned above.

[rickschoppers]

but I also realize it will be an uphill battle. I am just trying to point that out.

OK, that I definitely agree on. It's about political will mostly and it simply isn't there for gun control (for myriad reasons).

Hope you're prepared for the deluge of red repos for calling me level-headed though!

That's not gonna go down well in some quarters.

Ha, what do they know?

Or are you worried about your reputation?